The Most Overrated/Underrated Superstar

[Copenhagen848 58]

And so does Bettman his golden child.

Crosby says I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I want the Cup.... Pleaseeeee!!!!!!!!

I don't know if anyone else got that...but I did

[Born in the Red and White 0]

to whoever said gretzky is OVERrated, please never discuss anything hockey related ever again if you were serious. (however you did say something to the effect of you speaking more to his coaching ability maybe or something, but maybe you just don't like the guy??? IDK)

894 goals and 1,963 assists in 1,487 games for 1.92 PPG. don't touch wayne's hockey ability even if you think he's a D-Bag (i'm not even a huge fan, but i respect the fact that no one will ever again lace up a pair of skates and do what he did. EVER).

He is undeinably one of the top 2, if not the greatest player ever.

However, as a coach, he is pathetic, and IMO should have already been fired.

Honestly how can you come in as the coach who will make a franchise relevant, and you go and amass a stellar 107-122-17 record!!!

Scotty must be crapping in his pants thinking that "the Great One" is going to overtake his coaching records so soon...

[Grammar edit]

Edited July 29, 2008 by Born in the Red and White

[hckypete96 3]

Most Overrated on Wings: Filppula. People talk about him like he's a straight up god when in all reality we do not need him. Franzen could easily center that second line and Cleary (who scored more points than Flip) could slide into the 2nd line. Just for a comparison

Flip: GP 78 G 19 A 17 P 36

Hudler: GP 81 G 13 A 29 P 42

Flip is on 2nd line and Huds is on 4th. Flip gets double the amnt of ice time Huds gets.

Thats why I would say the most underrated Wing is either Hudler or Helm.

Most Overrated NHL players: Joe Thornton, Geno Malkin. Both are playoff chokers so I really don't give a s*** how many points they put up in the regular seaso,n when they disappear in the playoffs. And don't give me that "oohh geno had a great playoffs up until the finals." The finals IS the most important series. If you disappear in the finals, you're not an elite player IMO.

Cheechoo is also highly overrated due to the fact that he can't even score goals anymore and he's with Thornton lol.

Scott Niedermeyer: Can't hit, but has great speed. Not even close to best D man in the league IMO and people put him up for the Norris yearly.

Most Underrated NHL Player: Hemsky on the Oilers. He tore us apart in '06 and is a phenomenal playmaker who can dangle like nobodies business.

Anze Kopitar: The best player that no one sees play due to the fact that hes stuck in LA.

[jawbreaker 0]

Malkin is not overrated. Give him a break. They say that he had a fever during the Finals. Guy had like two playoffs, and he put up some solid numbers, so you can't him call a choker. He is a great player, but he will be in Crosby's shadow all his career, if they play for the same team.

Btw: How many points scored Gretzky in his first Finals? Was he a playoff choker, also? Not an elite player?

Edited July 29, 2008 by jawbreaker

[therock48880 14]

Malkin is not overrated. Give him a break. They say that he had a fever during the Finals. Guy had like two playoffs, and he put up some solid numbers, so you can't him call a choker. He is a great player, but he will be in Crosby's shadow all his career, if they play for the same team.

Btw: How many points scored Gretzky in his first Finals? Was he a playoff choker, also? Not an elite player?

I thought I read he had broken ribs in the finals. Could be wrong, though.

[Doc Holiday 0]

I don't know but either way after Malkin got crushed by Richards he was nonexistent. So obviously something was wrong other than him just "fizzling out"

[therock48880 14]

crosby is not overrated either. as much as we all hate hearing about him. He's top two in the league. and has the best start of any rookie in the past 20 years. sure the media never leaves the tip of his dick, but he's good. he's really good.

He is certainly one of the top 5 players offensively, but he sucks defensively and he sucks on faceoffs. He is not a complete player YET. That's why I say he is overrated. I think in order to be truly great, you should be able to play in all situations. Crosby can't do that. Obviously, he has plenty of time to correct his weaknesses, kinda like Yzerman did in his career, but right now, I say he is overrated.

[Holmstrom96Screens 0]

Morrow is most certainly not better than Iginla, and I would never imply that he is. As for Morrow being underrated, I'm not just looking at his numbers. I fear you may be.

That's interesting.....last I checked, Chara was one of the three finalists for the Norris Trophy, meaning currently one of the top 3 defensemen in the game. That means he's getting plenty of credit, and IMO the correct amount. He may be underrated on LGW because of Lidstrom, but everyone else who watches the entire NHL knows full well the level of player Chara is and gives him the proper amount of credit.

chara - wow.

i watched him in the playoffs vs montreal. Great de man, great shadow. Of course he had a little trouble but that was because his job was to shadow one of the best stickhandlers in the NHL - Alexei Kovalev. Chara practically had to turn flips trying to keep up with Kovy. But he did a great job. I'd love to watch chara shadowing other good players who arent such good stickhandlers. I'll bet given Chara's job plus his body size - like 6 foot 7 or something - they probably wont even be able to hardly sniff the puck, let alone actually score.

[edicius 3,269]

But somehow Broduer is overrated, yet in the same post Osgood is underrate, wasn't the knock on Ozzie always the teams in front of him?

If you are going to knock Broduer for the teams in front of him, Ozzie should be as well. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Read my post again, we're kind of actually on the same page in some ways.

This is the way things are usually seen:

Devils = great defense

Playing behind great defense, Brodeur = great

Red Wings = great defense

Playing behind great defense, Osgood = average/lucky

Therefore, if Osgood is average/lucky, Brodeur can't be great and is therefore overrated. People have always claimed that Red Wings goaltenders (namely Ozzie) have benefited from the team in front of them and that on any other team, they'd fail (meanwhile, Ozzie disproved that with both the Isles and Blues and still doesn't get credit). EDIT: Meanwhile, take someone like Legace who excelled on the Wings (in the regular season, at least) and has totally tanked elsewhere. He's someone who genuinely benefited from playing behind a great defensive system and played way over his head, only to be exposed in St. Louis.

However, it's still possible for me to consider Brodeur overrated while not considering Ozzie average/lucky. This is how:

Both goaltenders benefit from the system played in front of them. However, Osgood has been able to prove that he doesn't need that defensive system in front of him to play well - case in point, his tenures in St. Louis and New York (where he took teams into the postseason that had no business being there). Brodeur, meanwhile, has always played for the Devils and their defensive minded system, so there's never been that "other team" perspective for him. His stats as a whole hold up thus far, but as the defensive system in New Jersey gets gutted for less and less skilled defensemen, Marty's much more prone to having "average" games where he very, very rarely had them before. Take this past postseason as an example - Marty was completely and totally ordinary throughout the entire series and the Devils never had a chance. The shame of that is that the Rangers offense wasn't even clicking that much more than the Devils (16 goals against for the Devils, 12 for the Rangers), but a lot of the goals scored were goals that Martin Brodeur should have saved in his sleep (and we can't blame it all on Sean Avery ). The fact that Marty gave up 16 goals in 5 games against THAT Rangers team, though, it makes one wonder.

So while two goaltenders on different teams can benefit from defensive systems in front of them, it IS possible for one of the goaltenders to benefit MORE from that system, if that makes any sense. I think that Brodeur benefits more than Osgood does...but, like all opinions, mileage may vary.

(Did any of that make sense? I'm tired and I need to go to bed. )

Edited July 30, 2008 by edicius

[Louisville 112]

In his early years they talked about the problem of him being undisciplined. And I have to agree. The guy never shut his mouth in his rookie year. Forsberg thought he dove one game and Crosby came out of nowhere and starting yammering away at him. He took a few bad penalties against the Wild and, after scoring while Crosby was in the box, Kovalchuk pointed at him, causing Sidney to drop the f bomb three times.

After his rookie year once he let up on the attempted trash talk the sportscasters didn't have much to diss him on.

HAH, I forgot about that, priceless.

Even the annoucers say he needs to shut up, but they still manage to throw a Gretzky comparison in.

[Doc Holiday 0]

HAH, I forgot about that, priceless.

Even the annoucers say he needs to shut up, but they still manage to throw a Gretzky comparison in.

Even if it was pretty showboaty, I loved that point. It definitely humbles a superstar and I think it made him better. Plus Kovalchuk got to taunt the face of the NHL. Win-win for everyone.

[Doggy 130]

HAH, I forgot about that, priceless.

Even the annoucers say he needs to shut up, but they still manage to throw a Gretzky comparison in.

Lol. Good video. Funny to watch. He's still a little like that now, but he does control himself most of the time.

[hckypete96 3]

Btw: How many points scored Gretzky in his first Finals? Was he a playoff choker, also? Not an elite player

the fact that you even compared malkin to gretzky shows how little you know about the game of hockey. malkin has many many years to go to even be mentioned in the same sentence as the great one.

[jawbreaker 0]

the fact that you even compared malkin to gretzky shows how little you know about the game of hockey. malkin has many many years to go to even be mentioned in the same sentence as the great one.

I know little about hockey? Ok... then. I pointed out that it's way too early to call Malkin a playoff choker. Even The Great One was not that great in his first finals, so give Malkin some break.

[Opie 308]

Read my post again, we're kind of actually on the same page in some ways.

This is the way things are usually seen:

Devils = great defense

Playing behind great defense, Brodeur = great

Red Wings = great defense

Playing behind great defense, Osgood = average/lucky

Therefore, if Osgood is average/lucky, Brodeur can't be great and is therefore overrated. People have always claimed that Red Wings goaltenders (namely Ozzie) have benefited from the team in front of them and that on any other team, they'd fail (meanwhile, Ozzie disproved that with both the Isles and Blues and still doesn't get credit). EDIT: Meanwhile, take someone like Legace who excelled on the Wings (in the regular season, at least) and has totally tanked elsewhere. He's someone who genuinely benefited from playing behind a great defensive system and played way over his head, only to be exposed in St. Louis.

However, it's still possible for me to consider Brodeur overrated while not considering Ozzie average/lucky. This is how:

Both goaltenders benefit from the system played in front of them. However, Osgood has been able to prove that he doesn't need that defensive system in front of him to play well - case in point, his tenures in St. Louis and New York (where he took teams into the postseason that had no business being there). Brodeur, meanwhile, has always played for the Devils and their defensive minded system, so there's never been that "other team" perspective for him. His stats as a whole hold up thus far, but as the defensive system in New Jersey gets gutted for less and less skilled defensemen, Marty's much more prone to having "average" games where he very, very rarely had them before. Take this past postseason as an example - Marty was completely and totally ordinary throughout the entire series and the Devils never had a chance. The shame of that is that the Rangers offense wasn't even clicking that much more than the Devils (16 goals against for the Devils, 12 for the Rangers), but a lot of the goals scored were goals that Martin Brodeur should have saved in his sleep (and we can't blame it all on Sean Avery ). The fact that Marty gave up 16 goals in 5 games against THAT Rangers team, though, it makes one wonder.

So while two goaltenders on different teams can benefit from defensive systems in front of them, it IS possible for one of the goaltenders to benefit MORE from that system, if that makes any sense. I think that Brodeur benefits more than Osgood does...but, like all opinions, mileage may vary.

(Did any of that make sense? I'm tired and I need to go to bed. )

I was more referring to the post below yours that straight up said Brodeur was overrated and Ozzie should be the one getting his accolades.

I understand your point about the two, however, do you honestly think Ozzie is a better goaltender than Brodeur. Can't we also look at international play and see the skill set that Marty possess.

Martin Brodeur is one of the greatest Goaltenders of the modern era, him Hasek and Roy. That is the top of the list, in the 90's the D was great in front of him, but he was a stone wall behind it. There were many playoff games where he stole the show. "It's Marty Brodeur vs the world" (Thanks Doc!)

Brodeur may have benefited from having a good D in front of him, but that D also benefited from having a great netminder behind them.

I am of the opinion that without Brodeur behind him, Stevens can't hit like he did in Jersey, at least not as frequently. He knew what was behind him and that if he took the chance he more than likely would be ok. For instance the infamous hit on Kariya (link below) there were three ducks including Kariya entering the zone on 2.5 d-men (the third was slightly behind the play) and Stevens lays one of his top 5 hits (hard to label he had so many beauties). I think Marty being in the cage gave him the confidence, I could be completely wrong I have no quotes no links to back it up just my theory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8up-tkxZ4r8

I will give you Ozzie is underrated, was underrated by me before this last Detroit stint, I called him overrated and I was wrong. Not just because he won another cup, but because I did more research on the guy. When he was in other cities, I didn't pay attention, so therefore I assumed he was as bad as the teams records in front of him. Silly me.

And as far as your comment about the D dwindling and then lets see what happens, the dude is old now, yes goaltenders tend to age better than other positions, but still it is not like Marty of the 90's is playing behind a worse defensive team, we cannot go back and recreate that scenario.

What we do know is Marty was awesome for 90% of his career and now he is a great goaltender(edit, just not this post season). Ozzie has been a very very good goaltender(I stop short of great, because he has never been the dominant tender) for 90% of his career and a solid goaltender for the other 10%. That is not a knock on Ozzie, I have 0, count them 0 problems with him in net for Detroit. He showed last post season he is still the very very good goaltender and with this team in front of him I wouldn't be surprised if he brought another cup home with him before the end of this contract.

Edited July 30, 2008 by Opie

[toby91_ca 620]

He is certainly one of the top 5 players offensively, but he sucks defensively and he sucks on faceoffs. He is not a complete player YET. That's why I say he is overrated. I think in order to be truly great, you should be able to play in all situations. Crosby can't do that. Obviously, he has plenty of time to correct his weaknesses, kinda like Yzerman did in his career, but right now, I say he is overrated.

Crosby can play in all situations, he definately does not suck defensively, he is actually pretty responsible defensively and is improving. He was getting regular PK time before his injury and hasn't played much since then due to fear of injury. The last thing you want is your best player blocking a shot and being put on the shelf. I'm sure you'll see him get regular PK duty next year when he's back to 100%. He's also the team's best faceoff guy. He's not great yet, but he certainly doesn't suck and this is another area he has improved on each year.

I think you have some work to do if that's all you can come up with in terms of him being overrated. Is Ovechkin overrated because he's not great defensively? Didn't think so.

[Born in the Red and White 0]

Read my post again, we're kind of actually on the same page in some ways.

This is the way things are usually seen:

Devils = great defense

Playing behind great defense, Brodeur = great

Red Wings = great defense

Playing behind great defense, Osgood = average/lucky

Therefore, if Osgood is average/lucky, Brodeur can't be great and is therefore overrated. People have always claimed that Red Wings goaltenders (namely Ozzie) have benefited from the team in front of them and that on any other team, they'd fail (meanwhile, Ozzie disproved that with both the Isles and Blues and still doesn't get credit). EDIT: Meanwhile, take someone like Legace who excelled on the Wings (in the regular season, at least) and has totally tanked elsewhere. He's someone who genuinely benefited from playing behind a great defensive system and played way over his head, only to be exposed in St. Louis.

However, it's still possible for me to consider Brodeur overrated while not considering Ozzie average/lucky. This is how:

Both goaltenders benefit from the system played in front of them. However, Osgood has been able to prove that he doesn't need that defensive system in front of him to play well - case in point, his tenures in St. Louis and New York (where he took teams into the postseason that had no business being there). Brodeur, meanwhile, has always played for the Devils and their defensive minded system, so there's never been that "other team" perspective for him. His stats as a whole hold up thus far, but as the defensive system in New Jersey gets gutted for less and less skilled defensemen, Marty's much more prone to having "average" games where he very, very rarely had them before. Take this past postseason as an example - Marty was completely and totally ordinary throughout the entire series and the Devils never had a chance. The shame of that is that the Rangers offense wasn't even clicking that much more than the Devils (16 goals against for the Devils, 12 for the Rangers), but a lot of the goals scored were goals that Martin Brodeur should have saved in his sleep (and we can't blame it all on Sean Avery ). The fact that Marty gave up 16 goals in 5 games against THAT Rangers team, though, it makes one wonder.

So while two goaltenders on different teams can benefit from defensive systems in front of them, it IS possible for one of the goaltenders to benefit MORE from that system, if that makes any sense. I think that Brodeur benefits more than Osgood does...but, like all opinions, mileage may vary.

(Did any of that make sense? I'm tired and I need to go to bed. )

Complete sense. That was the same point that I was trying to make with my Brodeur post.

The way I see it is that Osgood has never gotten the respect that he deserved. If you compare him to Brodeur I would say that they both took advantage fo the situations they were in. Now while I am not saying that either is not nor was a good to great goaltender on Stanley Cup teams, I am saying that one is overrated, and the other underrated.

For example I see them both as 8's out 10. Brodeur however was hyped up and rated as a 9 while Osgood was not hyped up and blamed for any problems (as once was the case with every Detroit goaltender and QB (sorry to bring up the stinking mound of crap that is professional football under the Fords in Detroit)). Due to the fact that essential they have both benefited greatly from playing in defensive minded schemes they both profited, one was just overrated (I'm not saying he isn't good) and one was brought up by a team in a city where we blame everything on the netminders. I'm not saying that Brodeur doesn't deserve what he has gotten in NJ, I'm just saying that if it was Osgood in NJ and Brodeur brought up by the Wings, I would not be surprised if this conversation was not totally reversed.

I hope I didn't just confuse everyone.

[Opie 308]

Complete sense. That was the same point that I was trying to make with my Brodeur post.

The way I see it is that Osgood has never gotten the respect that he deserved. If you compare him to Brodeur I would say that they both took advantage fo the situations they were in. Now while I am not saying that either is not nor was a good to great goaltender on Stanley Cup teams, I am saying that one is overrated, and the other underrated.

For example I see them both as 8's out 10. Brodeur however was hyped up and rated as a 9 while Osgood was not hyped up and blamed for any problems (as once was the case with every Detroit goaltender and QB (sorry to bring up the stinking mound of crap that is professional football under the Fords in Detroit)). Due to the fact that essential they have both benefited greatly from playing in defensive minded schemes they both profited, one was just overrated (I'm not saying he isn't good) and one was brought up by a team in a city where we blame everything on the netminders. I'm not saying that Brodeur doesn't deserve what he has gotten in NJ, I'm just saying that if it was Osgood in NJ and Brodeur brought up by the Wings, I would not be surprised if this conversation was not totally reversed.

I hope I didn't just confuse everyone.

Marty on the Wings would have been complete Domination, not only did the Wings have better than or at least as good of D they had better offensive than the Devils, and if you give Ozzie an 8 Marty is a 9.5.

Brodeur played on average 2x as many minutes a season than Ozzie, Brodeur has only played under 4000 minutes 3 times in his career, once his rookie year.

Brodeur has never had a year with a SV% under .900, Ozzie has had 5.

Than there is the whole the league thinks he is pretty good thing with these:

1993-94 Calder Memorial Trophy 1996-97 William M. Jennings Trophy 1997-98 William M. Jennings Trophy

2002-03 William M. Jennings Trophy 2002-03 Vezina Trophy 2003-04 William M. Jennings Trophy

2003-04 Vezina Trophy

If Ozzie is an 8, Brodeur has to be at least a 9.5, and I am not arguing that Ozzie is underrated, I already conceited that, however Brodeur has earned every single one of his accolades, he played behind great D's, sure, but it is not like he is Raycroft. And look at those Blues rosters again, Pronger, Demitra, Weight, Tckachuk, Stillman. Lets not pretend he was on a team like this years Kings.

Edited July 30, 2008 by Opie

[therock48880 14]

Crosby can play in all situations, he definately does not suck defensively, he is actually pretty responsible defensively and is improving. He was getting regular PK time before his injury and hasn't played much since then due to fear of injury. The last thing you want is your best player blocking a shot and being put on the shelf. I'm sure you'll see him get regular PK duty next year when he's back to 100%. He's also the team's best faceoff guy. He's not great yet, but he certainly doesn't suck and this is another area he has improved on each year.

I think you have some work to do if that's all you can come up with in terms of him being overrated. Is Ovechkin overrated because he's not great defensively? Didn't think so.

So, you're trying to tell me that during the Stanley Cup Finals, with his team facing elimination, Therian chose to not play Sid on the PK because he may get injured? That's a ridiculous statement. If that's the case, then Therian should be fired immediately.

I never said Crosby wasn't great. The topic of the thread is overrated players and I say he is because the press treats him like he's God, yet there are obvious holes in his game. For that reason, I'm calling him overrated. You bring up Ovechkin. Ovechikin isn't treated like he's the greatest thing in the world like Crosby is.

[edicius 3,269]

And as far as your comment about the D dwindling and then lets see what happens, the dude is old now, yes goaltenders tend to age better than other positions, but still it is not like Marty of the 90's is playing behind a worse defensive team, we cannot go back and recreate that scenario.

What we do know is Marty was awesome for 90% of his career and now he is a great goaltender(edit, just not this post season). Ozzie has been a very very good goaltender(I stop short of great, because he has never been the dominant tender) for 90% of his career and a solid goaltender for the other 10%. That is not a knock on Ozzie, I have 0, count them 0 problems with him in net for Detroit. He showed last post season he is still the very very good goaltender and with this team in front of him I wouldn't be surprised if he brought another cup home with him before the end of this contract.

Take a good look everyone...THIS is how two people have an intelligent and civilized internet debate.

I'll definitely give you the whole confidence angle with Stevens in front of Brodeur. We even saw that this past season - when a team plays in front of a goaltender that they have confidence in, they play more smoothly and effectively. When there's a lack of confidence in that goaltender, the D can have a tendency to do too much, overcompensate and then make mistakes they wouldn't ordinarily make if they truly trusted their tender to make the big save. Just look at the whole situation we had with Hasek. The boys just didn't play with confidence in front of him. I think that's one edge that Brodeur will always have - his players will continue to play with confidence in front of him, just as the Avs always did in front of Roy. Note how Brodeur and Roy aren't/weren't injury-prone. That instills a lot of confidence right there, on top of natural talent. That confidence can make an average goaltender look great (Giguere) or, on the flip side, a lack of confidence in front can make a great goaltender collapse (Hasek).

No matter what I may think, whether he's overrated, underrated or in between, Marty's going down as one of the greats of this generation between the pipes, alongside Hasek and Roy. The question is, will he get out when the getting's good...or will he go out on a sour note, age having caught up to him?

[Opie 308]

Take a good look everyone...THIS is how two people have an intelligent and civilized internet debate.

I'll definitely give you the whole confidence angle with Stevens in front of Brodeur. We even saw that this past season - when a team plays in front of a goaltender that they have confidence in, they play more smoothly and effectively. When there's a lack of confidence in that goaltender, the D can have a tendency to do too much, overcompensate and then make mistakes they wouldn't ordinarily make if they truly trusted their tender to make the big save. Just look at the whole situation we had with Hasek. The boys just didn't play with confidence in front of him. I think that's one edge that Brodeur will always have - his players will continue to play with confidence in front of him, just as the Avs always did in front of Roy. Note how Brodeur and Roy aren't/weren't injury-prone. That instills a lot of confidence right there, on top of natural talent. That confidence can make an average goaltender look great (Giguere) or, on the flip side, a lack of confidence in front can make a great goaltender collapse (Hasek).

No matter what I may think, whether he's overrated, underrated or in between, Marty's going down as one of the greats of this generation between the pipes, alongside Hasek and Roy. The question is, will he get out when the getting's good...or will he go out on a sour note, age having caught up to him?

1. Thanks for the compliment and the civilized debate.

2. I think he will stay too long, he played what 77 games last year, carried his team to the post season, and then looked tired in the postseason. As long as he can play 60+ games in the league I think he stays in NJ. They will have to force him off of the team, which would be very very tough, he is a legend he is their Sawchuck, he is their Roy.

I really think he will decline quickly over the next 3 seasons, but I thought Ozzie was washed up a long time ago and look how that turned out.

BTW great point about the health of him and Roy!!!!

Edited July 30, 2008 by Opie

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Underated: Lecavalier

Overated: Malkin

[Doggy 130]

Underated: Lecavalier

Overated: Malkin

Vinny UNDERrated? Underrated by whom?

[CrossoverThrash 0]

Overrated: Crosby, Thornton, Spezza

[BeeRYCE 2]

Vinny UNDERrated? Underrated by whom?

Yeah really, Vinny is definitely fairly rated on all counts, as is Malkin. Malkin is definitely not overrated.