chrisdetroit 189 Report post Posted July 31, 2008 We're probably thinking about this in different ways. When I say it, I look at guys like Zetts and Dats who when watching them play even before they really became superstars, you knew that they were going to get there. They had the talent and they had a certain confidence and commitment to becoming the best. Nothing was going to stop them. I have felt that way for awhile about Franzen as well and was saying it before just about anyone. I don't see that in Flip. It's ambiguous I know, but I'm just saying. When they were at Flips point, they weren't getting deals this good when you had to know they were only going huge. I think it's fair to say that Flip most likely won't be reaching that point, so I ask why in this instance is he getting better money? I'm not saying he doesn't have heart, isn't a good kid, doesn't like winning, etc...I'm saying I don't think he has the tools (generally speaking) to become a great player and at this point, I wouldn't put someone like that in a Wings jersey for 5 years at $3 million per year. I don't agree. But more importantly, neither does Ken Holland, Jim Nill, Mike Babcock, Scotty Boman, Steve Yzerman, Mike Babcock or Haakam Anderson. Maybe mayself and all these great hockey minds are wrong and you are right........naaaaaahhhhhhhh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisdetroit 189 Report post Posted July 31, 2008 I think you're going to change your tune after this year unless you're just a sentimental slappy. I'd like to keep them all and I think that Hossa is a great player but right now he is not as good defensively as either Hank or Pavs. He has the potential to be as good defensively and he certainly is very good but he's not there yet. After a year playing under Babcock I would expect him to get to the next level defensively. And no, I'm not sentimental, I want the best players on the Wings. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norrisnick 1 Report post Posted July 31, 2008 How many Selke nominations does he have? How many Selke trophys does he have? How many Stanley Cup Rings does he have? How many Conn Smyths has he won? And let's see, he's about the same age and has played on pretty good Ottawa teams most of his career. He's NOT as good defensively as either Pav or Z and that is what wins Cups. Prior to this past season the answers for Z and Pavel would have been the same apart from Pavel being a rookie 4th liner on a ridiculously stacked team in '02. Marian Hossa is every bit as good as the other two. Quite possibly better as he's never been on a team as good as the Wings are poised to be. Alfredsson is in the discussion as well, but Z, Pavel, and Hossa are very likely the top 3 two-way forwards in the league. I've viewed Marian as a bigger, stronger, faster, natural winger version of Zetterberg for a while now. That we now have both (as well as Pavel) is mind-boggling. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Matt 1,049 Report post Posted July 31, 2008 Lilly scored our only goal and it was a s***ty call on Pavel coupled with Franzen's limp-wristed backhand clearing attempt that let the Ducks control the puck and score. Franzen had the time and space to go to his forehand and rip it off the endboards on the far side. He didn't. He did the same thing in game 5 THIS year against Pittsburgh. even the best players make mistakes. Sakic had some horrible turnovers that led to goals vs minnesota in this years playoffs. Good lord, guys, the wasn't enough to indicate that I wasn't serious and it was a joke? Would it take a disappearing pencil trick? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YoungGuns1340 1 Report post Posted July 31, 2008 TBH, I don't feel I am blowing this out of proportion. Don't misunderstand me, moving Lilja is probably the best thing due to his contract and the situation the Wings are in, but players do frown on teams that sign and trade. Will it ultimately be the downfall of the Red Wings if they were to move him, most likely not....but it doesn't look the best either after a player committed 2 more seasons to your club after he was a part of winning you a Stanley Cup. I understand that situations change, and with the log-jam on D along with the Cap crunch Lilja makes the most sense, but I'd also like to look at some other alternatives before just saying, "lets dump Lilja". Sammy's name has been thrown out there, and all though I'm not 100% keen on dumping him, its worth consideration given the current Cap situation. Perhaps Kenny was forward with him, but who's to say Kenny didn't have anything finalized with Stuart at the time Lilja signed? Perhaps he brought Lilja back thinking his chance of getting Stuart 5 minutes before the free agency period began was slim. If the Wings had equally viable NHL level talent to Lilja, they wouldn't pay twice the price to Lilja as they are those kids. Yes they would. Lilja at the time of signing his contract had bargaining power. Quincey and Meech do not. I would think you would be one to note how comparing RFA and UFA signings is apples and oranges because of that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norrisnick 1 Report post Posted July 31, 2008 Good lord, guys, the wasn't enough to indicate that I wasn't serious and it was a joke? Would it take a disappearing pencil trick? Defusing all the slappies that fully believe Lilly is the sole reason we lost the '07 Cup before they had the chance to wind up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisdetroit 189 Report post Posted July 31, 2008 Prior to this past season the answers for Z and Pavel would have been the same apart from Pavel being a rookie 4th liner on a ridiculously stacked team in '02. Marian Hossa is every bit as good as the other two. Quite possibly better as he's never been on a team as good as the Wings are poised to be. Alfredsson is in the discussion as well, but Z, Pavel, and Hossa are very likely the top 3 two-way forwards in the league. I've viewed Marian as a bigger, stronger, faster, natural winger version of Zetterberg for a while now. That we now have both (as well as Pavel) is mind-boggling. Prior to this last season Hossa SUCKED in the playoffs. I thought that we were talking about the players now not 2 years ago. You can't have it both ways. As far as the "he's never been on a team as good as the Wings", that's a weak argument. He played on some very good Ottawa teams including last year's Stanley Cup Finalist team but no Selke nominations and no Cups. Your opinion of Hossa seems to be much higher than the guys that hand out the NHL awards. He's a great player but not as great as you make him out to be. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gnredwing 10 Report post Posted July 31, 2008 This was a great deal.... First off I dont think hes being overpayed, but even if he was, I think its worth it to keep him as a Red Wing. He certainly has a great chance of being a great player Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norrisnick 1 Report post Posted July 31, 2008 Prior to this last season Hossa SUCKED in the playoffs. I thought that we were talking about the players now not 2 years ago. You can't have it both ways. As far as the "he's never been on a team as good as the Wings", that's a weak argument. He played on some very good Ottawa teams including last year's Stanley Cup Finalist team but no Selke nominations and no Cups. Your opinion of Hossa seems to be much higher than the guys that hand out the NHL awards. He's a great player but not as great as you make him out to be. You are aware that Hossa was traded to Atlanta after the lockout, yes? And it's ridiculously hard to get serious Selke consideration when you're on a really s***ty team. Yet he got a decent amount of votes all three seasons. And if Hossa sucked in the playoffs, I'd hate to hear your description of Pavel's play prior to '07. I imagine a lots of *'s... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jedi 1,865 Report post Posted July 31, 2008 ...He played on some very good Ottawa teams including last year's Stanley Cup Finalist team but no Selke nominations and no Cups... Sorry, no. Hossa was not with the Sens for the '06-'07 season. Taken from Tsn.ca... 23-Aug-05 Atlanta Thrashers trade Dany Heatley to the Ottawa Senators for Marian Hossa and Greg de Vries. Unless of course, you meant to say... ...He played on some very good Ottawa teams including AND last year's Stanley Cup Finalist team but no Selke nominations and no Cups... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
betterREDthandead 58 Report post Posted July 31, 2008 Wow that was hard to understand. Silly double negatives. Anywho, who would you rather keep after the year? Franzen (gives us more cap space for a great second liner) or Hossa (less cap space, chemistry, possible chance to leave when a bigger offer comes in). How does the possibility that Hossa could leave make it undesirable to keep him? Wouldn't it be a good thing, having a player that other teams want to get? By the way, regarding the actual subject of the thread, all I have to say as a self-declared Official Flip Slappy is WOOHOO! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Z and D for the C 712 Report post Posted July 31, 2008 (edited) And no, I'm not sentimental, I want the best players on the Wings. And you'd seriously take Franzen over Hossa based on that philosophy? No hate to Franzen, but Hossa is better. Edited July 31, 2008 by Z and D for the C Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doc Holiday 0 Report post Posted July 31, 2008 How does the possibility that Hossa could leave make it undesirable to keep him? Wouldn't it be a good thing, having a player that other teams want to get? By the way, regarding the actual subject of the thread, all I have to say as a self-declared Official Flip Slappy is WOOHOO! It's not other teams looking for him, it's him looking for other teams. If this year he is able to stack his stats and get one big offer, that makes him a high risk player, and I don't want to pull a Pittsburgh and get rid of key players (Franzen included) to keep a guy who probably leaves to make a large amount of cash. In the cap world Hossa will have a hard time fitting in when we have big stars like Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Lidstrom, Rafalski, and Stuart. If KH can get to keep both then I'm all for it but I would rather have a more humble player who can make a good amount of points for the team (this is all depending on what happens this season obviously) and gives us good cap space for our stars and other decent players. Essentially my opinion means jack squat in the long run depending on many factors, so its really just an opinion thing that you can't really be proven wrong on. We will see come july. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeDs 0 Report post Posted July 31, 2008 (edited) Where did he state that Lilja could very well be traded? Cite please. http://www.behindthejersey.com/2008/07/08/...-trading-block/ found the interview if this link works. http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/...y_and_Wojo_Show Edited July 31, 2008 by LeDs Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Crymson Report post Posted July 31, 2008 Damn! Now we won't have the money to sign Jeff Finger in two years. This contract SUCKS! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doggy 130 Report post Posted July 31, 2008 Damn! Now we won't have the money to sign Jeff Finger in two years. This contract SUCKS! He's not a free-agent until 4 years anyway. You gotta lock up talent like that long-term. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aussie_Wing 354 Report post Posted July 31, 2008 YES!!!! Absolutely made my day!!! Way to go Flip and especially the Wings! A 5 year deal shows just how highly they rate him and in a few years time this deal will be looking like gold. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daniel1 32 Report post Posted July 31, 2008 Good deal for Flip and the 5yrs is good for the Wings. I wouldn't worry too much about cap space for this year; that's why teams have GM's and GM's have capologists so that fans like us don't have to worry about it. We'll be under the cap by opening day and if we have to lose a 7th or 8th defenceman to do it then so be it. As for next year i'm quite sure that once the deals for Z and Mule get done and Hossa sees how much will/won't be available to him he'll try even harder to win it all this season cause he knows he'll be moving in order to get his 10mil paycheck elsewhere. I'm happy to have him for this season though but I would much have Z, Mule and Flip locked up for 5 or 7 years each than have Hossa anyways. I liken him to a "hired gun" that we're bringing aboard for one season to help us repeat and fill in the "secondary scoring" until Mule, Flip and Huds are all consistant 25+ goal scorers two seasons from now and are backed up by Abdelkader, Mursak, Emmerton, Leino and Helm. By then hopefully our vets like Malts, Sammy, McCarty and Cheli are enjoying a cold one while watching the next generation compete for cups. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
therock48880 14 Report post Posted July 31, 2008 Hossa quite easily. He's every bit as good as Z and Pavel. You do anything in your power to keep a guy like that. People need to remember that Franzen hasn't even broken 40 points in a season. Hossa has averaged 80 points over the last 7 seasons. Great points. This is nothing against Franzen because I love him and I love the way he plays, but up until the last 20 games of the season, he was a defensive minded player who rarely scored. He obviously went on quite a scoring streak but when you look at the rest of his career, that scoring streak is the exception. Don't get me wrong, I hope he can continue to play like he did at the end of the year, but I'm just not convinced that he will. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
therock48880 14 Report post Posted July 31, 2008 And you'd seriously take Franzen over Hossa based on that philosophy? No hate to Franzen, but Hossa is better. All things being equal, yes, Hossa is better. But, in a cap world, would you rather have Franzen for 4 million or Hossa for 8ish? That's going to be the big question that Kenny and Co will have to consider. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nev 1,085 Report post Posted July 31, 2008 I just feel like Flip doesn't have the tenacity mentally or physically to become a big-time player I'm sorry, did you watch the Stanley Cup finals? Y'know, where Flip completely outplayed Evgeni Malkin, on one knee? Unless by "Big-time" you mean another Pavel or Hank. Well, he's not being paid Pavel or Hank money, he's being paid 2nd line money, which is what he is. A good, young, 2nd line Centre. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest LivingtheDream Report post Posted July 31, 2008 (edited) I'm glad we got him. At the start of the playoffs he looked really shaky. I mean really shaky and lord how many open nets did he miss at first? However, he never stopped hustling and shooting and scrumming and it paid off. He became a playoff performer. That shows heart and something worth hanging on to. Of course that amazing SCF goal was the culmination of Flipper. P.S. A Ranger fan friend said to me, "I never heard of that guy, he's great." Edited July 31, 2008 by LivingtheDream Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204 Report post Posted July 31, 2008 Meh. Too long, and too much for right now. But Kenny knows what he's doing, and if Filpula is playing with Hossa next year, he better put up points. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted July 31, 2008 Marian Hossa is every bit as good as the other two. Quite possibly better as he's never been on a team as good as the Wings are poised to be. He's never lacked for linemates, and there is a good chance he will not be playing with Zetterberg or Datsyuk most of the time, so in fact, his linemates in Detroit will be worse than what he has had in the past. The big difference will be defense -- he will have better checking support from the other forwards, and he will have defensemen more capable of joining in as well as sending the outlet pass fast and accurate. Hossa is not going to shock and amaze anyone (that has watched him play before) by being on this Detroit team. Fortunately, he could not suprise me and put up close to a hundred points... it's just that some here seem to think Hossa, on the Wings, is all of a sudden going to put up 120+ points and win a Selke. He is not as good as Datsyuk and Zetterberg defensively. Not even close. He is as good or slightly better than Filppula defensively. Anyways, if Filppula does not capitalize on this, this year, I hope he is traded at the end of the season so we can keep some other cogs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
betterREDthandead 58 Report post Posted July 31, 2008 It's not other teams looking for him, it's him looking for other teams. If this year he is able to stack his stats and get one big offer, that makes him a high risk player, and I don't want to pull a Pittsburgh and get rid of key players (Franzen included) to keep a guy who probably leaves to make a large amount of cash. In the cap world Hossa will have a hard time fitting in when we have big stars like Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Lidstrom, Rafalski, and Stuart. If KH can get to keep both then I'm all for it but I would rather have a more humble player who can make a good amount of points for the team (this is all depending on what happens this season obviously) and gives us good cap space for our stars and other decent players. Essentially my opinion means jack squat in the long run depending on many factors, so its really just an opinion thing that you can't really be proven wrong on. We will see come july. It's too late for that logic though. That's the sort of thing you worry about when trading for someone, as in, are we giving up valuable assets for a guy who's gonna leave anyway? When you're deciding between two players, if it does come down to that, you pick the one that'll give you the bang for your buck. Besides, who do we have to get rid of for a guy that probably leaves? If he leaves, then we don't have to lose anyone else. If he stays, then we maybe lose Franzen but then Hossa leaving is no longer a risk, is it? There's no in between. And hasn't Hossa already proven he's "humble" enough to not just jump to the highest bidder? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
