Chelios, Downey, McCarty, and Quincey

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Hey guys, remember that time Gary Roberts blindsided Mule and no one did anything about it? Wings just rolled over and died!

Softies, the whole lot of 'em!

Hey, remember that time when Holmstrom got ran by Pronger from behind, and then came back playing like s*** the rest of the series? Remember that time when the Flyers ran our players a few years ago and no one had the balls to stand up for each other?

Just remember that stupid posts can go both ways, Dabura.

[Dabura 12,232]

I'm pretty sure you've got a monopoly on that department, buddy. Having said that, let's take your brilliant new points and incorporate them into our hypothetical Babs discussion:

"Hey Mike, good to see you. Listen, judging by your championship season and the fact that the Flyers ran your players a few years ago, I think it's pretty clear this team needs to fight more and get tougher. Thoughts?"

Anyone want to take a stab at Babs' hypothetical reply?

Edited August 11, 2008 by Dabura

[Opie 308]

Sarcasm aside, I hate to ask you this, but when someone on our team DOES get run, who, then, will stand up to fight the guy who just took the cheapshot? Exactly. And then our players continue to get run...

We need en enforcer... I've said it once, I'll say it again. I am fully aware that our players will get run no matter what we say about it. I understand that if a player wants to take a cheapshot, he's going to, regardless of who's on the ice.

However, I can't understand what happens once the cheapshot occurs. There wouldn't be a fight to begin with unless both teams had someone willing to stand up. So who's gonna be our stand-up man? Datsyuk? Hossa? Hell, let's throw Huds at 'em. I dunno about you, Opie, but I'd rather have an expendable brawler to throw out there in reply instead of a bunch of stars that don't need to fight, let alone would accept the challenge.

I never said I don't want retribution, I never said I don't like fighting. What I did say was an enforcer stops nothing, so when people say having an enforcer will stop players from running the wings players I just want you to understand that an enforcer stops nothing.

I have said in this thread and others, that Aaron Downey is the perfect FIGHTER for this team, the don't a player to go out and fight just to fight, Downey didn't so that once last year. This team wants a FIGHTER who will go out and defend a teammate if needed but also be happy only playing 40-60 games a year and get 4-6 minutes a game, without being a cancer in the room. Downey, from what I read from teammates, is a great teammate.

The wings as a team have a philosophy when it comes to enforcing and fighting, that is not going to change any time soon. The "pro-enforcer" crowd needs to understand that, the wings will not ice a fighter or enforcer every game, it is the team philosophy. Those of us who understand that and try to point in out get labeled as "Anti Enforcer" which in all actuality we are realists.

If you want this team to carry a heavyweight who will go out and register 20 fights a year you need a small dose of reality. The Wings of this era will not carry a full time enforcer, and they have proven themselves to be very successful in doing so.

[Winther 6]

I never said I don't want retribution, I never said I don't like fighting. What I did say was an enforcer stops nothing, so when people say having an enforcer will stop players from running the wings players I just want you to understand that an enforcer stops nothing.

I have said in this thread and others, that Aaron Downey is the perfect FIGHTER for this team, the don't a player to go out and fight just to fight, Downey didn't so that once last year. This team wants a FIGHTER who will go out and defend a teammate if needed but also be happy only playing 40-60 games a year and get 4-6 minutes a game, without being a cancer in the room. Downey, from what I read from teammates, is a great teammate.

The wings as a team have a philosophy when it comes to enforcing and fighting, that is not going to change any time soon. The "pro-enforcer" crowd needs to understand that, the wings will not ice a fighter or enforcer every game, it is the team philosophy. Those of us who understand that and try to point in out get labeled as "Anti Enforcer" which in all actuality we are realists.

If you want this team to carry a heavyweight who will go out and register 20 fights a year you need a small dose of reality. The Wings of this era will not carry a full time enforcer, and they have proven themselves to be very successful in doing so.

People want fighters for entertainment and retribution, atleast that what it seems like. It shines through a lot of the "pro-figthing" posters on this board. Sometimes people just hide their true reasons behind something else, and if you read through this thread you can see it oh so clearly!

(I enjoy watching fighting, hitting games, and i think its an important part of the game)

And i agree that Aaron Downey seems to be a really good fit to this team, if i had to chose i think i actually would take him over DMac at this point in time.

[Shutemdown 23]

People want fighters for entertainment and retribution, atleast that what it seems like. It shines through a lot of the "pro-figthing" posters on this board. Sometimes people just hide their true reasons behind something else, and if you read through this thread you can see it oh so clearly!

(I enjoy watching fighting, hitting games, and i think its an important part of the game)

And i agree that Aaron Downey seems to be a really good fit to this team, if i had to chose i think i actually would take him over DMac at this point in time.

Same here!

Honestly, I kinda felt like Dmac was taking a spot that could've otherwise been filled by someone with more talent.

Yes, he is a face of the franchise, a team builder and a character guy, but when all we needed was a bruiser to sit on the bench in case he's needed, Aaron Downey fills that role perfectly. He knows the team isn't necessarily dependent on his skill, therefore we'd have an "enforcer" there just in case, while keeping spots open for the rest of the team.

At this point, nothing against Dmac, but I'd sign Downey and move on.

[Chunkylover 26]

Yeah, but it took Downey half a season to figure in on a goal, whereas it took McCarty only a few games. Why not have someone who can fight, and contribute in a small way offensively?

The only thing Downey has on McCarty is that he is younger. He's not a better skater or stickhandler. He may be a better fighter but there really is no way of knowing where Mac will be until the season starts.

Nothing against Downey.

[Dominator2005 558]

Yeah, but it took Downey half a season to figure in on a goal, whereas it took McCarty only a few games. Why not have someone who can fight, and contribute in a small way offensively?

The only thing Downey has on McCarty is that he is younger. He's not a better skater or stickhandler. He may be a better fighter but there really is no way of knowing where Mac will be until the season starts.

Nothing against Downey.

Do you really expect Downey or DMac to score some goals???

[uk_redwing 495]

The only thing Downey has on McCarty is that he is younger. He's not a better skater or stickhandler. He may be a better fighter but there really is no way of knowing where Mac will be until the season starts.

Nothing against Downey.

Downey is better fighter than McCarty ever was and ever will be.

[miller76 463]

Mac was definetly the feel good story of the year, and how the mighty Red Wings gave this guy a second chance. I absolutely loved watching him in his day, but Downey in to handle the fighting last season totally worked. I thought Mac was a little bit of a distraction and a liability as well. I mean no one is expecting either one of these guys to be a goal scorer or fast skater, but if there is a player on the ice that is obviously getting valuable ice time, he better be contributing. This team doesn't need a feel good/enforcer/fighter guy that is a liability whether it's Mac, Downey or someone else.

But I am convinced the team needs somebody!

Edit: clarity

Edited August 11, 2008 by miller76

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Mac was definetly the feel good story of the year, and how the mighty Red Wings gave this guy a second chance. I absolutely loved watching him in his day, but Downey in to handle the fighting last season totally worked. I thought Mac was a little bit of a distraction and a liability as well. I mean no one is expecting either one of these guys to be a goal scorer or fast skater, but if there is a player on the ice that is obviously getting valuable ice time, he better be contributing. This team doesn't need a feel good/enforcer/fighter guy that is a liability whether it's Mac, Downey or someone else.

But I am convinced the team needs somebody!

Edit: clarity

What do you mean it worked? The anti-fighting posters here have already determined that neither Downey nor McCarty were even part of the team last season. Us fight fans apparently imagined their existence on the team. Who is this Downey that you speak of?

[Heaton 1]

What do you mean it worked? The anti-fighting posters here have already determined that neither Downey nor McCarty were even part of the team last season. Us fight fans apparently imagined their existence on the team. Who is this Downey that you speak of?

Could you please list the anti-fighting posters? norrisnick is one, and? It really isn't a black and white issue as much as it's being made out to be by you.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Could you please list the anti-fighting posters? norrisnick is one, and? It really isn't a black and white issue as much as it's being made out to be by you.

There's no reason to point fingers you know. But the one you mentioned is a good start.

I'm just humored by the posters who claim they're not anti-fighting, and then argue about how insignificant enforcers are beyond the point of entertainment, and how the Wings don't need fighting, and how fighters are all unskilled meaningless players to have on a team. It's just the pure hypocrisy that angers me.

You guys say one thing, and then post another.

[Heaton 1]

There's no reason to point fingers you know. But the one you mentioned is a good start.

I'm just humored by the posters who claim they're not anti-fighting, and then argue about how insignificant enforcers are beyond the point of entertainment, and how the Wings don't need fighting, and how fighters are all unskilled meaningless players to have on a team. It's just the pure hypocrisy that angers me.

You guys say one thing, and then post another.

People have been pretty consistent. norrisnick doesn't hate fighting he hates no talent goons. He never protested against McCarty or Kocur fighting years ago because they could actually play the game and contribute in other areas.

Fighting isn't exclusive with the Downey-types, I'm sure we'd all welcome a Chris Neil or a Scott Hartnell type if they were brought in.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

People have been pretty consistent. norrisnick doesn't hate fighting he hates no talent goons. He never protested against McCarty or Kocur fighting years ago because they could actually play the game and contribute in other areas.

Fighting isn't exclusive with the Downey-types, I'm sure we'd all welcome a Chris Neil or a Scott Hartnell type if they were brought in.

I doubt it. People have become enamored with some of our 4th liners, and seem unwilling to let go of anyone on the roster other than Lilja and Chelios.

Enforcers aren't supposed to be talented. You guys have unrealistic expectations in only wanting an enforcer who can score goals. A guy like Scott Hartnell isn't really an enforcer, and neither is Chris Neil, although I'd like to have him.

I loved Downey's presence on the roster last year, and I'd love to see it repeated or improved. The fact that we still don't have an enforcer signed for next year bugs me.

BTW, Kocur would be the equivalent of an untalented goon. Wings fans just loved him because he was a presence in Detroit for so long. In fact, enforcers are pretty popular players everywhere in the league amongst fans. I guess it's been too long for Wings fans to remember what it's like to have a true enforcer on the team. That's why so many of you are adamant against us needing one.

[Heaton 1]

I guess it's been too long for Wings fans to remember what it's like to have a true enforcer on the team. That's why so many of you are adamant against us needing one.

Oh please, don't play that card. Do you remember what's it's like to have a "true" enforcer on the team? Who was it? We're the same age (according to your profile). Teach me something.

Joey Kocur was a winner, plain and simple. He had a lot more skill than any of the so called generic enforcers there are today (Parros, Boogaard, McGrattan ect...)

Without starting the definition carousel up again, Chris Neil can and does everything that a heavyweight could do. And lets get real here, it isn't the Geroge Parros or Brian McGrattan who need to be enforced. It's the Sean Avery's or Ben Eagers. The heavyweights don't play enough to stir anything up on a consistent basis.

Besides even if they did, the heavy's play to fight other heavys. It wouldn't deter them, it would be giving them what they want.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Oh please, don't play that card. Do you remember what's it's like to have a "true" enforcer on the team? Who was it? We're the same age (according to your profile). Teach me something.

Joey Kocur was a winner, plain and simple. He had a lot more skill than any of the so called generic enforcers there are today (Parros, Boogaard, McGrattan ect...)

Without starting the definition carousel up again, Chris Neil can and does everything that a heavyweight could do. And lets get real here, it isn't the Geroge Parros or Brian McGrattan who need to be enforced. It's the Sean Avery's or Ben Eagers. The heavyweights don't play enough to stir anything up on a consistent basis.

Besides even if they did, the heavy's play to fight other heavys. It wouldn't deter them, it would be giving them what they want.

Take it easy with the age talk.

I was just making a point that most Wings fans on this board differ from other teams' fans since they don't seem to care whether they have an enforcer on their team or not. I realize that it wasn't always this way in Detroit, and that fans have just been conditioned this way by having too many non-fighting teams over the years. Also, not all those teams won the Stanley Cup, so don't come back at me with that crap.

My age has nothing to do with my knowledge of history, or my knowledge of Wings history. I don't think I understated anything in my post.

Come to think of it, last year was a step in the right direction towards having an enforcer full time on this team. I'd hate to see that change just because some scrub like Kopecky is going to be healthy. I want the team to keep going the right direction in the toughness department.

Edited August 11, 2008 by GMRwings1983

[Heaton 1]

Take it easy with the age talk.

Because I pointed out that we're the same age? I didn't know that was offensive.

I was just making a point that most Wings fans on this board differ from other teams' fans since they don't seem to care whether they have an enforcer on their team or not.

We're not different than other teams. Almost every team has had a discussion like this in the past. Rangers fans are always divided as to what Colton Orr actually brings to the team (search for it on HFBoards). Montreal fans bring this up and many wanted to get a real enforcer on their team, but again, divided. Same with Chicago and St. Louis prior to some of their moves. Our team really isn't that different from other teams with the exception that we don't have a guy that's averaged 5+ fights in a while.

My age has nothing to do with my knowledge of history, or my knowledge of Wings history. I don't think I understated anything in my post.

Then why post it? I'm assuming you meant me, instead of you. I fully understand it, but when people play the "I don't think soandso remembers" card it is almost always interpreted as I remember something that you don't. Anyway, English lesson aside, no one is anti-enfocer, we're just pro-enforcer who can play the game of hockey.

Seriously, is there anything someone like Chris Neil couldn't do that Downey did last year? Or whoever else you want to put in that role?

[Heaton 1]

Come to think of it, last year was a step in the right direction towards having an enforcer full time on this team. I'd hate to see that change just because some scrub like Kopecky is going to be healthy. I want the team to keep going the right direction in the toughness department.

Please replace the word toughness with fighting so people don't get the idea that they're mutually exclusive.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Because I pointed out that we're the same age? I didn't know that was offensive.

We're not different than other teams. Almost every team has had a discussion like this in the past. Rangers fans are always divided as to what Colton Orr actually brings to the team (search for it on HFBoards). Montreal fans bring this up and many wanted to get a real enforcer on their team, but again, divided. Same with Chicago and St. Louis prior to some of their moves. Our team really isn't that different from other teams with the exception that we don't have a guy that's averaged 5+ fights in a while.

Then why post it? I'm assuming you meant me, instead of you. I fully understand it, but when people play the "I don't think soandso remembers" card it is almost always interpreted as I remember something that you don't. Anyway, English lesson aside, no one is anti-enfocer, we're just pro-enforcer who can play the game of hockey.

Seriously, is there anything someone like Chris Neil couldn't do that Downey did last year? Or whoever else you want to put in that role?

I didn't say understand, I said understated. There's a difference there, dictionary boy.

And all those teams you mentioned, with the exception of ***** Montreal, have carried a lot more toughness than the Wings over the years. That makes a big difference between the two fanbases. The difference is that their majority likes enforcers, while our majority doesn't. Of course, there will always be a few dissenters, but for the most part, they're more conditioned to having toughness. Yes, I know we're more successful, but that isn't tied to toughness one way or another.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Please replace the word toughness with fighting so people don't get the idea that they're mutually exclusive.

Sorry, but "team toughness" doesn't count. No one actually knows what the hell that phrase means. To me they're one and the same, unless you're talking about mental toughness, which is of course beyond the realm of this sad debate.

[Heaton 1]

And all those teams you mentioned, with the exception of ***** Montreal, have carried a lot more toughness than the Wings over the years. That makes a big difference between the two fanbases. The difference is that their majority likes enforcers, while our majority doesn't. Of course, there will always be a few dissenters, but for the most part, they're more conditioned to having toughness. Yes, I know we're more successful, but that isn't tied to toughness one way or another.

But you're painting with such a broad brush. Over the last few enforcer threads there's been a grand total of maybe 30 people giving their opinion.

The generalizations need to stop.

[Heaton 1]

Sorry, but "team toughness" doesn't count. No one actually knows what the hell that phrase means. To me they're one and the same, unless you're talking about mental toughness, which is of course beyond the realm of this sad debate.

No one knows what the word "toughness' actually means either since there's no definitive definition in terms of hockey. Was Yzerman not tough because he didn't fight? It's such a subjective term.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

But you're painting with such a broad brush. Over the last few enforcer threads there's been a grand total of maybe 30 people giving their opinion.

The generalizations need to stop.

Since many pro-enforcer posters don't appear on LGW anymore, naturally I'm in the minority on my side of the debate.

The only Wings fans I meet are the ones on this forum, so I am probably generalizing about all Wings fans a bit too much, but from the majority of the posts here, I'm assuming that Wings fans aren't too thrilled about us having either Downey or any enforcer playing next year. I'm also assuming that most Wings fans don't feel the importance and need of having a fighter on the team, because we haven't had one for years.

[Heaton 1]

Since many pro-enforcer posters don't appear on LGW anymore, naturally I'm in the minority on my side of the debate.

The only Wings fans I meet are the ones on this forum, so I am probably generalizing about all Wings fans a bit too much, but from the majority of the posts here, I'm assuming that Wings fans aren't too thrilled about us having either Downey or any enforcer playing next year. I'm also assuming that most Wings fans don't feel the importance and need of having a fighter on the team, because we haven't had one for years.

I just think you're trying to overcompensate too much. The only poster who is against having Downey or McCarty back is norrisnick. The majority feel that last year was adequate and the odds are that one of Downey or McCarty will be back and they're fine with it.

I think you're fine with it and think it's "OK", but would like to have a bit more.

We're all on the same page, but it's the midde of freaking August, all we have left to debate is semantics.

[norrisnick 1]

No one knows what the word "toughness' actually means either since there's no definitive definition in terms of hockey. Was Yzerman not tough because he didn't fight? It's such a subjective term.

Stevie was obviously a *****.