Chelios, Downey, McCarty, and Quincey

[Doggy 130]

I'm happy to have DMac or Downey signed as a 14th or 15th forward. I think I feel the way most here feel. We have nothing against the enforcers on offer - we just don't feel they're good enough nor important enough to have to find a place for them at the cost of guys like Helm, Kopecky and others.

Edited August 12, 2008 by Doggy

[eva unit zero 271]

There's no reason to point fingers you know. But the one you mentioned is a good start.

I'm just humored by the posters who claim they're not anti-fighting, and then argue about how insignificant enforcers are beyond the point of entertainment, and how the Wings don't need fighting, and how fighters are all unskilled meaningless players to have on a team. It's just the pure hypocrisy that angers me.

You guys say one thing, and then post another.

Babcock is considered to be an elite coach. He just won the Stanley Cup.

He did so by getting his team to play gritty and mean, but not retaliating. Tell me exactly...where does an enforcer fit in this style of play? And by enforcer, I mean a guy whose only purpose; whose only skill; is throwing punches. Someone who is not useful on the roster for his hockey skills, and would not be dressed were he not capable of fighting.

Explain to me the uses a player who is only capable of fighting has on a team that generally avoids fighting in favor of physical play and skill hockey.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Babcock is considered to be an elite coach. He just won the Stanley Cup.

He did so by getting his team to play gritty and mean, but not retaliating. Tell me exactly...where does an enforcer fit in this style of play? And by enforcer, I mean a guy whose only purpose; whose only skill; is throwing punches. Someone who is not useful on the roster for his hockey skills, and would not be dressed were he not capable of fighting.

Explain to me the uses a player who is only capable of fighting has on a team that generally avoids fighting in favor of physical play and skill hockey.

I can answer that with two words.

Aaron Downey.

Do you remember him, or are you another poster who thinks that his existence last year was an illusion? He seemed to find a place on this team beautifully, and none of the players seemed to complain about him.

You guys make it sound like the players in the lockerroom looked at Downey as a joke, and wouldn't let him hang out with the team or something. The fact is that he did fit in on this team, and did a job no one else was willing, or able to do.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

I just think you're trying to overcompensate too much. The only poster who is against having Downey or McCarty back is norrisnick. The majority feel that last year was adequate and the odds are that one of Downey or McCarty will be back and they're fine with it.

I think you're fine with it and think it's "OK", but would like to have a bit more.

We're all on the same page, but it's the midde of freaking August, all we have left to debate is semantics.

Well, there's one thing I can finally agree with you on.

Except for that unnecessary Freudian remark at the beginning of your post.

[Heaton 1]

Well, there's one thing I can finally agree with you on.

Except for that unnecessary Freudian remark at the beginning of your post.

Unnecessary? I'm basically quoting you. It's irrelevant commentary though.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

I'm happy to have DMac or Downey signed as a 14th or 15th forward. I think I feel the way most here feel. We have nothing against the enforcers on offer - we just don't feel they're good enough nor important enough to have to find a place for them at the cost of guys like Helm, Kopecky and others.

Isn't your own description there the equivalent of being anti-enforcer. If that isn't anti-enforcer, than what the hell is?

[eva unit zero 271]

I can answer that with two words.

Aaron Downey.

Do you remember him, or are you another poster who thinks that his existence last year was an illusion? He seemed to find a place on this team beautifully, and none of the players seemed to complain about him.

You guys make it sound like the players in the lockerroom looked at Downey as a joke, and wouldn't let him hang out with the team or something. The fact is that he did fit in on this team, and did a job no one else was willing, or able to do.

There were 20 skaters who played more total minutes than Downey. Derek Meech was the only one of them who didn't also appear in more games; however, Downey was dead last in average time on ice among Wings skaters. Does that mean he was the least valuable skater the Wings put on the ice? How about the 21st-most-valuable? He ranks 13th among forwards in total ice time, which places him in the press box with a healthy lineup. So while I am sure the team appreciated his contribution, his contribution was minimal at best when compared to the guys who were playing ahead of him. Understand this. And understand that anyone else with comparable hockey skills would have seen the same situation. It's not that he was a joke; he simply wasn't a good enough player to justify a regular spot. And therefore, he didn't have one. NN has tried desperately to make this clear to you, but you have refused to listen. It's not about being anti-fighting. It's about a difference in roster philosophy. You and some others want a third and fourth line stocked with a bunch of heavyweights. NN and some others want a group of skilled hockey players who can play a gritty game. The second group considers fighting optional after hockey skill, the first considers it the top priority.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I can answer that with two words.

Aaron Downey.

Do you remember him, or are you another poster who thinks that his existence last year was an illusion? He seemed to find a place on this team beautifully, and none of the players seemed to complain about him.

You guys make it sound like the players in the lockerroom looked at Downey as a joke, and wouldn't let him hang out with the team or something. The fact is that he did fit in on this team, and did a job no one else was willing, or able to do.

No kidding!

That's the part that baffles me. It's as if Downey didn't exist now that we won the Cup. And people go so far as to use Detroit winning the Cup as proof we don't need an enforcer, when we had one last season!

Babcock is an elite coach. And he saw fit to play Downey (who has little other use than fighting, hitting, and stirring things up) in 56 games this past year. Before anyone points out he didn't play in the playoffs, no kidding. That doesn't mean an enforcer doesn't have a purpose in the long grind that is the regular season.

And let's not kid ourselves, at the NHL level Downey's skill set is about as limited as they come. If Babcock had a legit enforcer in the lineup that could occasionally skate with the puck and make a pass, he'd likely have played them even more than he did Downey.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

There were 20 skaters who played more total minutes than Downey. Derek Meech was the only one of them who didn't also appear in more games; however, Downey was dead last in average time on ice among Wings skaters. Does that mean he was the least valuable skater the Wings put on the ice? How about the 21st-most-valuable? He ranks 13th among forwards in total ice time, which places him in the press box with a healthy lineup. So while I am sure the team appreciated his contribution, his contribution was minimal at best when compared to the guys who were playing ahead of him. Understand this. And understand that anyone else with comparable hockey skills would have seen the same situation. It's not that he was a joke; he simply wasn't a good enough player to justify a regular spot. And therefore, he didn't have one. NN has tried desperately to make this clear to you, but you have refused to listen. It's not about being anti-fighting. It's about a difference in roster philosophy. You and some others want a third and fourth line stocked with a bunch of heavyweights. NN and some others want a group of skilled hockey players who can play a gritty game. The second group considers fighting optional after hockey skill, the first considers it the top priority.

Downey did have a regular roster spot, which is why his name is on the Cup. Come playoff time, the team had already signed McCarty, who in turn became a regular replacing Downey.

Yeah, those guys played because of injuries, but that's inevitable. Injuries are a part of the game. If they were so useless, Babcock would have depleted the entire GR roster before letting either of them play. If Downey and McCarty had played, say 10 games total, then I'd agree with you that their role is minimal. However, they played far more games than that.

You can't just look at stats and say that a player is meaningless. Who would have done the fighting if it wasn't for Downey? It would have meant more beatdowns for the likes of Cleary and Franzen. He had a role, and he did it properly. At this point, we have no one on the roster to fill that role.

[Heaton 1]

Isn't your own description there the equivalent of being anti-enforcer. If that isn't anti-enforcer, than what the hell is?

Not sure why you keep ignoring the gray area. Someone saying that Downey shouldn't be playing over Helm or some other young guy because their development is more important isn't taking a stance one way or the other. It's just qualifying what is more beneficial for the now and the long run.

It's like we need to say "Downey should play in all 82 games or the Wings are *******" so we don't get labeled anti-fighting or anti-enforcer. It's not as simple as that. For the record, you can label me whatever you want, but accepting it just ends the conversation and I would like to continue the pointless drivel.

[eva unit zero 271]

Downey did have a regular roster spot, which is why his name is on the Cup. Come playoff time, the team had already signed McCarty, who in turn became a regular replacing Downey.

Yeah, those guys played because of injuries, but that's inevitable. Injuries are a part of the game. If they were so useless, Babcock would have depleted the entire GR roster before letting either of them play. If Downey and McCarty had played, say 10 games total, then I'd agree with you that their role is minimal. However, they played far more games than that.

You can't just look at stats and say that a player is meaningless. Who would have done the fighting if it wasn't for Downey? It would have meant more beatdowns for the likes of Cleary and Franzen. He had a role, and he did it properly. At this point, we have no one on the roster to fill that role.

Downey was not one of the twelve most-used forwards. Not in games played or in minutes played. This means he was not one of the 'regular' forwards. Due to injuries and healthy scratches he played 56 games, but he was not a 'regular' as far as the term is normally used. And no, it would not have meant more beatdowns for Cleary and Franzen. How many beatdowns did they get in the 26 games Downey didn't play?

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Not sure why you keep ignoring the gray area. Someone saying that Downey shouldn't be playing over Helm or some other young guy because their development is more important isn't taking a stance one way or the other. It's just qualifying what is more beneficial for the now and the long run.

It's like we need to say "Downey should play in all 82 games or the Wings are *******" so we don't get labeled anti-fighting or anti-enforcer. It's not as simple as that. For the record, you can label me whatever you want, but accepting it just ends the conversation and I would like to continue the pointless drivel.

I wasn't actually talking to you with that post.

I was responding to that specific poster's description of enforcers as being not good enough nor important enough, while he at the same time stated that he has nothing against enforcers. That sounds like a stance against enforcers in general. You guys are being too hypocritical within your own posts.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Downey was not one of the twelve most-used forwards. Not in games played or in minutes played. This means he was not one of the 'regular' forwards. Due to injuries and healthy scratches he played 56 games, but he was not a 'regular' as far as the term is normally used. And no, it would not have meant more beatdowns for Cleary and Franzen. How many beatdowns did they get in the 26 games Downey didn't play?

There are no regulars on the 4th line. 4th liners are guys whose spot on the roster is always iffy, and often depends on injuries and production.

Whether you like to admit it or not, Downey was a regular, and McCarty was a regular for the playoffs.

[Heaton 1]

I wasn't actually talking to you with that post.

I was responding to that specific poster's description of enforcers as being not good enough nor important enough, while he at the same time stated that he has nothing against enforcers. That sounds like a stance against enforcers in general. You guys are being too hypocritical within your own posts.

Heh. I'll make this my last post on the subject seeing as it's a never ending cycle. Players who can play the game of hockey and stick up for their teammates are players that I covet. Brendan Shanahan is the epitome of that and these days guys like Jarome Iginla and Brendan Morrow have taken his role to a lesser state as the talent has gone up so the space for the Peter Worrell's are now almost extint. I loved what Downey did last year and I've never said otherwise. I advocated for Brad Norton when he got signed because the players gushed over him because of the aura that he brought and I was more than happy after he left because he ended up being horrible. Downey is the perfect fit for the team because he understood his role and never took stupid retaliation penalties because he realized it was detrimental to the team and added nothing to the lineup. Since it looks like Darren McCarty will be brought back I'm confident he'll be able to do the same job that Downey did as McCarty's skills are basically gone and he's reduced to a 4-6 minute a night guy who's job is to patrol and can take care of whatever.

The way this team is built and especially this year, there just isn't any room for more than a select few non impact players. There's no reason to doubt what Ken Holland does this year because from the beginning of the lockout no one has managed their team better or made more right decisions than him. Downey or McCarty will get signed and I can see why you're getting antsy about it but there's no rush to get it done. No one is going to sign them, neither is going to the KHL or some other European league (unless they get some ridiculous offer) so don't fret. My stance has been consistent from the beginning and I'm sure harlodsnepts or Barnes52 (who posts on RWC) or BlueMonk or whatever can vouch for my consistency on the subject. But I'll break it down: Fighting? Like it, I love when vengeance is carried out like Downey on Lappy, I loved when Downey had enough of MacLaren and they went at it. I hate the WWE style fights, the Laraque fights, the generic Boogaard vs. Parros fights just to get their fight card up. I realize the majority of fight fans love it but I find it boring and useless. I'd rather have a player who could play and fight but I'm neither for nor against playing a guy like Downey half the games, I'm indifferent because I don't think the fights themselves are as important as the mental aspect that comes with it. I feel the Wings are one of the toughest teams in the league when it counts the most. No other team goes into more high traffic areas, no other team goes to the front the most, no other team has the mental toughness to get knocked down and get right back up. No other team is as intimidating as the Red Wings.

I don't agree that moral victories are anywhere near as important as winning the acutal game and lastly the only thing that matters in the NHL is winning. Nothing else matters and it doesn't matter how you win as long as you get the job done.

Thanks for helping me get my post count up.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Heh. I'll make this my last post on the subject seeing as it's a never ending cycle. Players who can play the game of hockey and stick up for their teammates are players that I covet. Brendan Shanahan is the epitome of that and these days guys like Jarome Iginla and Brendan Morrow have taken his role to a lesser state as the talent has gone up so the space for the Peter Worrell's are now almost extint. I loved what Downey did last year and I've never said otherwise. I advocated for Brad Norton when he got signed because the players gushed over him because of the aura that he brought and I was more than happy after he left because he ended up being horrible. Downey is the perfect fit for the team because he understood his role and never took stupid retaliation penalties because he realized it was detrimental to the team and added nothing to the lineup. Since it looks like Darren McCarty will be brought back I'm confident he'll be able to do the same job that Downey did as McCarty's skills are basically gone and he's reduced to a 4-6 minute a night guy who's job is to patrol and can take care of whatever.

The way this team is built and especially this year, there just isn't any room for more than a select few non impact players. There's no reason to doubt what Ken Holland does this year because from the beginning of the lockout no one has managed their team better or made more right decisions than him. Downey or McCarty will get signed and I can see why you're getting antsy about it but there's no rush to get it done. No one is going to sign them, neither is going to the KHL or some other European league (unless they get some ridiculous offer) so don't fret. My stance has been consistent from the beginning and I'm sure harlodsnepts or Barnes52 (who posts on RWC) or BlueMonk or whatever can vouch for my consistency on the subject. But I'll break it down: Fighting? Like it, I love when vengeance is carried out like Downey on Lappy, I loved when Downey had enough of MacLaren and they went at it. I hate the WWE style fights, the Laraque fights, the generic Boogaard vs. Parros fights just to get their fight card up. I realize the majority of fight fans love it but I find it boring and useless. I'd rather have a player who could play and fight but I'm neither for nor against playing a guy like Downey half the games, I'm indifferent because I don't think the fights themselves are as important as the mental aspect that comes with it. I feel the Wings are one of the toughest teams in the league when it counts the most. No other team goes into more high traffic areas, no other team goes to the front the most, no other team has the mental toughness to get knocked down and get right back up. No other team is as intimidating as the Red Wings.

I don't agree that moral victories are anywhere near as important as winning the acutal game and lastly the only thing that matters in the NHL is winning. Nothing else matters and it doesn't matter how you win as long as you get the job done.

Thanks for helping me get my post count up.

You're welcome.

Believe it or not, I actually read all that.

[Dabura 12,207]

There's no reason to point fingers you know. But the one you mentioned is a good start.

I'm just humored by the posters who claim they're not anti-fighting, and then argue about how insignificant enforcers are beyond the point of entertainment, and how the Wings don't need fighting, and how fighters are all unskilled meaningless players to have on a team. It's just the pure hypocrisy that angers me.

You guys say one thing, and then post another.

Please. You're bitter because you've been called out on the general stupidity of your arguments regarding this team's "need" for more fights and a greater level of "toughness." Confronted with the reality that you can't defend these arguments of yours in an intelligent, rational, level-headed, and ultimately compelling way (that's the thing about stupid arguments: they're stupid), you've now decided to play the "flip-flopper" card. You might as well be making yo' momma jokes.

Fact: you're not arguing with hypocrites. NN has never contradicted his stance. Heaton has never contradicted his stance. I've never contradicted my stance. I won't speak for the other two, but like I've said dozens of times over the course of our multiple-thread-spanning argument about this tired-ass subject, my personal stance is this: enforcers have their place in the NHL, but today's Wings don't care much for them and are, in fact, coming off a postseason run that saw them tear apart the opposition without the aid of a single legitimate enforcer (for the record, Mac couldn't enforce a one-legged kitten at this stage in his career) -- all of which stands in strong opposition to your argument that "The Wings need to get tougher and fight more." This is not tantamount to saying, "Enforcers are completely useless and I'm completely opposed to fighting in the NHL." In fact, I've said on several occasions that one of Mac and Downey will probably return. (Feel free to read through my posts.)

So, the ball's in your court. I'm still waiting for some solid support for the argument, "The Wings need to get tougher and fight more."

[mrhockey2k 2]

Video of Downey I found that made me laugh! Kinda off topic, but whatever!

Downey Video

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

You're welcome.

Believe it or not, I actually read all that.

So did i!

I understand that room cannot be made for Downey/McCarty, Because we have guys like Helm/Kopecky ahead of them. And i understand the fact that you love spirited fights, fights with a meaning. as do i. they are the best.. The planned out tap you on the shoulder heys lets go fights are boring and worthless to me also. I think thats why alot of people love Carcillo, because he is 100% intenssity

I dont mind if we dont have an enforcer all that much, But if the poop hits the fan, I'd like 2/3 guys on our team who can answer the bell, Whether its Lilja,Quincey or so on.. Im not anticipating that Detroit all of a sudden re-invents the wheel and has a 4th line with 3 HW's and becomes Goon City USA..

But I just want someone on our team, Who can stir the pot, and wreak havoc and release vengeance, If something needs to be done..

:D :D :D :D

I re-watched game 1 of the av's wings playoffsthis year, omg did chelios suck, i didn't realize how s***ty he played and i didn't realize how well flipper and franzen did play.

[Doggy 130]

Isn't your own description there the equivalent of being anti-enforcer. If that isn't anti-enforcer, than what the hell is?

1. I'm probably a bigger fan of Downey than you.

2. I said we should sign an enforcer.

I would imagine someone that is anti-enforcer wouldn't suggest signing an enforcer. Would you? It's kind of the exact opposite of being anti-enforcer.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Please. You're bitter because you've been called out on the general stupidity of your arguments regarding this team's "need" for more fights and a greater level of "toughness." Confronted with the reality that you can't defend these arguments of yours in an intelligent, rational, level-headed, and ultimately compelling way (that's the thing about stupid arguments: they're stupid), you've now decided to play the "flip-flopper" card. You might as well be making yo' momma jokes.

Fact: you're not arguing with hypocrites. NN has never contradicted his stance. Heaton has never contradicted his stance. I've never contradicted my stance. I won't speak for the other two, but like I've said dozens of times over the course of our multiple-thread-spanning argument about this tired-ass subject, my personal stance is this: enforcers have their place in the NHL, but today's Wings don't care much for them and are, in fact, coming off a postseason run that saw them tear apart the opposition without the aid of a single legitimate enforcer (for the record, Mac couldn't enforce a one-legged kitten at this stage in his career) -- all of which stands in strong opposition to your argument that "The Wings need to get tougher and fight more." This is not tantamount to saying, "Enforcers are completely useless and I'm completely opposed to fighting in the NHL." In fact, I've said on several occasions that one of Mac and Downey will probably return. (Feel free to read through my posts.)

So, the ball's in your court. I'm still waiting for some solid support for the argument, "The Wings need to get tougher and fight more."

You say my arguments are bad, but that's exactly what I think about your arguments. We did have an enforcer last year in the regular season and in the playoffs. Mac is more enforcer than he is anything else. Yeah, there weren't many fights in the playoffs, but fact is that we had an enforcer dressed for most of the playoff run and it didn't hurt us. It didn't hurt us in the regular season either. Why can't you and the other posters acknowledge that fact and stop talking about how we won the Cup without an enforcer. You guys sound like idiots when you say that.

However, I'm not saying that we needed those enforcers to win, so there's no reason for me to argue that point, as you asked me to. We do, however, need them to stand up for players who are otherwise not fighters. That's what enforcers are and always have been throughout history. What makes you think the Wings don't need one while everyone else does? Hell, the Wings probably need a guy like that more than anybody, because everyone is always trying to take advantage of us physically. It's helpful to have someone who can offset all that and dish some beatings out in return. If you're O.K. with us winning and getting run at physically, than that's your deal. Personally, I don't think that says much about you, because I've stated before that there's more to pride than just winning. Norrisnick has stated that the Wings players should duck and cover whenever they're challenged to fight. I think that's ridiculous. I don't want to sit there watching Calgary or Anaheim attack our players, knowing that we have no one to go out there in retaliation.

Anyway, I don't relish shooting a mosquito with an elephant gun, so I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you about this any further. See you later demon king.

[Dabura 12,207]

You're still getting things wrong left and right. That's what makes my arguments relatively strong and yours relatively weak -- you're just flat-out not grasping certain concepts. For example, the McCarty of today is not a serious enforcer, was not brought in to be an enforcer, was not dressed to enforce, and did not, aside from one mostly meaningless scrap, enforce anything during this past postseason run. Furthermore, he was consistently the weakest link in the lineup.

Another example: "What makes you think the Wings don't need [a fighter] while everyone else does?" I've never said the Wings flat-out don't need a fighter in their system, or that they should dress only soft European figure skaters, or anything of the sort. What I've argued -- and Babcock himself would say the same thing, as he is, after all, the one who chose to go through the playoffs without a serious enforcer -- is that fighting doesn't have an especially prominent place in today's Wings' system, and that winning the Cup without dressing a genuinely intimidating, effective enforcer in the playoffs (which -- let's not kid ourselves -- Mac is not) only validates this.

The Wings, like "everyone else," see the value of enforcers. But unlike "everyone else," they're the class of the league. That owes much to the choices they make. One of those choices concerns fighting/enforcing/sending messages: "Not so important to us as an organization," they say. And with the way their system runs, and with the success this system is enjoying, there really aren't any great arguments to the contrary. Case in point: the best you seem to capable of producing is "They and their fans should feel embarrassed" and "There's more to pride than winning."

Grow up. Get back to us when you do.

Edited August 13, 2008 by Dabura

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

You're still getting things wrong left and right. That's what makes my arguments relatively strong and yours relatively weak -- you're just flat-out not grasping certain concepts. For example, the McCarty of today is not a serious enforcer, was not brought in to be an enforcer, was not dressed to enforce, and did not, aside from one mostly meaningless scrap, enforce anything during this past postseason run. Furthermore, he was consistently the weakest link in the lineup.

Another example: "What makes you think the Wings don't need [a fighter] while everyone else does?" I've never said the Wings flat-out don't need a fighter in their system, or that they should dress only soft European figure skaters, or anything of the sort. What I've argued -- and Babcock himself would say the same thing, as he is, after all, the one who chose to go through the playoffs without a serious enforcer -- is that fighting doesn't have an especially prominent place in today's Wings' system, and that winning the Cup without dressing a genuinely intimidating, effective enforcer in the playoffs (which -- let's not kid ourselves -- Mac is not) only validates this.

The Wings, like "everyone else," see the value of enforcers. But unlike "everyone else," they're the class of the league. That owes much to the choices they make. One of those choices concerns fighting/enforcing/sending messages: "Not so important to us as an organization," they say. And with the way their system runs, and with the success this system is enjoying, there really aren't any great arguments to the contrary. Case in point: the best you seem to capable of producing is "They and their fans should feel embarrassed" and "There's more to pride than winning."

Grow up. Get back to us when you do.

You're just too self righteous. How are your arguments strong? I see no arguments from your side that make any sense. It's just a bunch of hypocrisy from a guy who has the nerve to call me a flip-flopper. You have a few anti-enforcer posters on your side, so that gives you a little extra confidence to keep trying to start a flame war with me by telling me about how I need to grow up and stupid s*** like that.

Well, it's not going to work. I'm going to do all my growing up by telling you that this is the last time I'm going to personally argue with you on this topic. Normally it's easy to get me into a flame war, but I'm not that way anymore. Anyway, get your head out of your a** for the next time we argue about anything. You tire me out with your crap.

BTW, congratulations on being the first non-divealanche fan to come close to riling me up on this board.

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

LETS GO LILJA!!!

LETS GO LILJA!!

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

LETS GO LILJA!!!

LETS GO LILJA!!

Laugh all you want, but this year he'll move from being a top 10 NHL heavyweight to moving into the top 5.

It's still a shame that the top heavies have been unwilling for so long to give him a chance to move up where he belongs. Remember the way the Pens sat Laraque as soon as they found out that Cheli would be sitting for Lilja? Just shameful if you ask me. Oh well, it took Tony Twist a while to become #1 also.

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

The players i like, are the players you HATE

Lilja,Kopecky and Maltby my fave 3.