TOP 10 Reasons Sundin Isn't a Hall-Of-Famer

[RyanBarnes! 293]

And he will never let the people of Saint Louis forget it. Every single broadcast and before and after every commercial break "Hall of Famer" Bernie Federko is sounded off. Course his commentary is some of the worst, homer based garbage I've ever heard. What the people of Saint Louis and Blues fans in general wouldn't do to have Ken Wilson back and anybody but Bernie as the color guy. Not only does the team suck, but the broadcast is ever worse.

As for Sundin, I agree with the reasons. For one, the standards of the Hall of Fame seem to have fallen considerably (i.e. Federko) which makes me think Sundin has a decent shot at being included, BUT Sundin just isn't Yzerman or Sakic or insert leader that can carry a team to championships.

Granted, Sundin is no Yzerman but he is not any less of a leader than for example Lidstrom, difference is Sundin hasn't had much support.

[Earthhuman 8]

An NHL team thinks he's worth $10 million when he's 37 years old. Inflated or not, a player like that should be in the Hall of Fame. Is that the highest a 37-year-old has ever been paid, if he takes it?

This is also the Hockey Hall of Fame, not the Hockey Hall of At Least 1.3 Points-Per-Game & a Cup. Sundin lived the game. More selflessly than most players.

[The Noodle 39 14]

Sundin has been loyal and a true leader. He has an amazing heart and is a great player! This guy has bled and sacrificed a lot for his team and has stayed with them through everything. Because of that he is a HOF lock!

Sundin is the all time maple leafs leader in points, goals, and overtime goals.

[StevieY9802 6]

Oates, Gilmour, and Dino were rarely among the top three or four players at their position. Sundin was usually one of the best three or four centers in the league. Sundin was also one of the best three or four centers in the league when his scoring winger was a guy like Jonas Hoglund or Mikael Renberg most seasons, not Brett Hull or Cam Neely. Ciccarelli was rarely ever one of the best players at his position and this was at a weaker position. Dino had one top-five showing, fifth-place, for postseason all-star voting. That's all. Oates had three top-five showings; a second-place and two fourth-place showings. Gilmour? Two thirds, both of which came with top-three left winger Dave Andreychuk. Sundin has, to-date, posted a fifth-place and two-second place showings. That's better than any of the other three. Gilmour's Selke is the only significant award or achievement any of the other three have that Sundin does not, and Sundin is the only onf of the four who has been a consistent threat both in terms of scoring goals and setting them up despite the fact that he has had the least to work with in terms of linemates, I would say he is easily the best bet of the four as far as the HOF. Sundin also is playing at an elite level later in his career than the other three were; as the other three were only elite or close to it for a very short period during their primes while Sundin has been a top player in the NHL for over a decade. Hall of Famer.

Wow throwing stats out there to try and prove your point... you've never done that before. You should be in politics. Fine let's play that game. Adam Oates is #15 all time in points with 1420 in 1337 games. And he only played with Hull for 3 seasons while his most productive season was 92-93 with the Bruins, I don't think Brett Hull was on that team and it wasn't cause of Neely either here some stats for you he only played 27 games that year. Gilmour sits right behind him and both, if Mats retired now, would be ahead of him. Oh no they played with whoever, well guess what thats what you have to deal with. Dino sits #16 all time with 608 goals. But he only had one top 5 showing. Well only 15 guys are ahead of him in goal scoring so I don't care who the hell you played with thats pretty dang good and he should have been in there. And by your argument that Sundin never played with anybody so he should be on the first ballot while the guys mentioned here weren't. Jari Kurri sits there with 601 goals and he played most of his career with Gretz so he had it too easy in my opinion so he shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame yet. Those guys had great careers and should be in there that's all I was saying. Mats should and will be in there too. Jeez.

Edited August 6, 2008 by StevieY9802

[MacK_Attack 108]

I think he will make it in just based on the fact that he was the Leafs captain and he had some pretty good years. Do I think he deserves it? Not at all. One of the most overrated players in the last 10 years, IMO.

Oh, and I would rather have Cam Neely on my team then Sundin. Anyday.

He's also been one of the most consistent players of the past ten years, a time in which his game should have hit a decline, but didn't. Not many at 37 years old can play point-per-game hockey with absolutely no support.

I keep losing repsect for this guy every day this thing drags on. I know it's a big choice to make but it's not like his season ended in June it ended in April. So after 4 months of sitting around you can't make up your mind to even retire or not? If I was a Canucks or Habs fan I wouldn't want him on my team. I've also started to question his desire to win. For a guy who seems to be thinking about himself wouldn't you want a shot at the Cup? So many people thought Hossa was about the money and he took the same deal Sundin could have had here and Hossa was being offered much bigger contracts.

Would you rather he pull a Brett Favre, or take the time to make the decision that he will stick by? The guy owes nothing to anybody, he's not under contract, let him decide when he wants to if he's going to play or not. Besides, he's already said that if he plays, he will decide to do so before training camp opens. What's the big deal?

An NHL team thinks he's worth $10 million when he's 37 years old. Inflated or not, a player like that should be in the Hall of Fame. Is that the highest a 37-year-old has ever been paid, if he takes it?

This is also the Hockey Hall of Fame, not the Hockey Hall of At Least 1.3 Points-Per-Game & a Cup. Sundin lived the game. More selflessly than most players.

I agree. Also, apparently captaining (and I believe setting up the winning goal) the Olympic gold medal team isn't worthy of the consideration. I haven't heard any Sundin bashers (can't believe there are any) bring that one up.

If Mats Sundin has had one fault these last few years, it's that he's too loyal. Is that such a fault? In a world where loyalty can seemingly be bought, Mats stuck by his team and teammates when he could've easily jumped ship and perhaps won a Stanley Cup. Mats seems to feel that winning the Stanley Cup as a Maple Leaf was more important to him than just winning it. Sure, I'm sure he'd love to win it, like anybody who makes it to the NHL, but he's so fiercely loyal that he's willing to forgo that.

Let's also get something out there. Doug Gilmour & Dino Ciccarelli are not in the Hall of Fame due to personal, off-ice issues throughout their careers. Adam Oates will get into the Hall, he's just had some incredibly stiff competition these last couple years.

As for Mats' decision this summer, I think the real reason why this is taking so long is not because he can't decide if he wants to keep playing, but that he knows deep down that if he is to keep playing, it will have to be somewhere other than Toronto and I'm not sure he's willing to do that. Now that's loyalty. You'd keep a guy out of the Hall of Fame because he puts his team, teammates and the fans that much higher on a pedestal compared to his own personal accomplishments?

The guy cried when he broke the Leafs all-time goals and points record (on the same goal, by the way). Not when he broke the record, but when he came out at the end of the game and was given a third stand ovation of the night by the fans.

Edited August 6, 2008 by MacK_Attack

[BeeRYCE 2]

People mentioning Cam Neely in this debate is like mentioning Jeff Finger in an overpaid player debate.

[Opie 308]

People mentioning Cam Neely in this debate is like mentioning Jeff Finger in an overpaid player debate.

So its funny???????

Edited August 7, 2008 by Opie

[eva unit zero 271]

Wow throwing stats out there to try and prove your point... you've never done that before. You should be in politics. Fine let's play that game. Adam Oates is #15 all time in points with 1420 in 1337 games. And he only played with Hull for 3 seasons while his most productive season was 92-93 with the Bruins, I don't think Brett Hull was on that team and it wasn't cause of Neely either here some stats for you he only played 27 games that year. Gilmour sits right behind him and both, if Mats retired now, would be ahead of him. Oh no they played with whoever, well guess what thats what you have to deal with. Dino sits #16 all time with 608 goals. But he only had one top 5 showing. Well only 15 guys are ahead of him in goal scoring so I don't care who the hell you played with thats pretty dang good and he should have been in there. And by your argument that Sundin never played with anybody so he should be on the first ballot while the guys mentioned here weren't. Jari Kurri sits there with 601 goals and he played most of his career with Gretz so he had it too easy in my opinion so he shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame yet. Those guys had great careers and should be in there that's all I was saying. Mats should and will be in there too. Jeez.

Jari Kurri was twice named to the NHL's First All-Star team. That's two more First All-Star selections, meaning he was the BEST player at his position, than Adam Oates, Doug Gilmour, and Dino Ciccarelli COMBINED. For your reference, since you didn't seem to understand it, that's the 'top five' I was throwing out. The voting for the postseason All-Star teams. Because typically if a player wasn't considered among the best at his position (Ciccarelli) he doesn't make the Hall. Now sit down and compare Jari Kurri to Dino Ciccarelli for a second. Kurri scored 50+ goals several times, 100+ points several times, and yes he did it with Wayne Gretzky, but he did it as Wayne Gretzky's defensive safety valve. Kurri was a Selke contender every year. Ciccarelli played defense less during his career than Kurri did in a single season, and still scored less often. Sorry, I know he was a fan favorite around here. So was Darren McCarty. Doesn't put them in the Hall.

As far as Oates is concerned, in the 92-93 season he had two 30-goal scorers playing on his wing for the majority of the year; and in Neely's 13 games he scored 11 goals. It's not like he was alone on his line. He also had Ray Bourque and Glen Wesley manning the points on the power play. Oates was a very good center...but for the time period over his career, from 1985 to 2005, He doesn't crack the top 3; that group is Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman. Beyond that filling out the top six, there's Messier, Fedorov, and Sakic. Maybe rounding out the top ten could be argued, but even then he has some pretty stiff competition from guys like Forsberg, Sundin, LaFontaine, Modano as well as less-heralded but productive names like Gilmour, Francis, Hawerchuk, Roenick, Nieuwendyk, Turgeon, Nicholls. Oates lack of significant awards, history of being the playmaker for the big goal scorer, and the fact that he himself generally was not a goal scorer could end up hurting him in HOF voting as typically playmakers get s*** on in the court of public opinion. The public man-crush on Cam Neely can't help him either, as if Cam was so great, then it must mean Adam was less great as he went from mediocre, to a great performance alongside the Hart trophy winner (Hull) to another great performance alongside CAM!!, to...what? Obviously this means he sucks and was the product of the great wingers he had.

[eva unit zero 271]

I think he will make it in just based on the fact that he was the Leafs captain and he had some pretty good years. Do I think he deserves it? Not at all. One of the most overrated players in the last 10 years, IMO.

Oh, and I would rather have Cam Neely on my team then Sundin. Anyday.

Most people would. But Neely was injured and didn't have a HOF career, despite what the man-crush voters decided.

Would'ves should not be the deciding factor. If Joe Sakic was traded from Quebec, Mats Sundin would've won a bunch of Cups as Captain in Colorado. There, he's a HOFer. If Richard Gnida wasn't a drunken ******, Vladimir Konstantinov wouldn't have had his career ended and the Wings would have won like 5 more in a row, all with Ozzie in net. Ozzie would have won a couple Vezinas too, and Vladdie and Nick would be the first teamers every year. HOFers, all.

[Yzerfan1999 81]

Most people would. But Neely was injured and didn't have a HOF career, despite what the man-crush voters decided.

Would'ves should not be the deciding factor. If Joe Sakic was traded from Quebec, Mats Sundin would've won a bunch of Cups as Captain in Colorado. There, he's a HOFer. If Richard Gnida wasn't a drunken ******, Vladimir Konstantinov wouldn't have had his career ended and the Wings would have won like 5 more in a row, all with Ozzie in net. Ozzie would have won a couple Vezinas too, and Vladdie and Nick would be the first teamers every year. HOFers, all.

Fair enough. But if Sundin is considered a HOFer at this point, then people have include a guy like Paul Kariya when he retires. He will have 1000 pts by the end of the season, and when his career ends in 3 or 4 years they will have very comparable stats. I think what most people see with Sundin is a real lack of recognized personal achievement and no team achievement outside of the Olympics...same goes for Kariya. I don't deny that Sundin is a very good hockey player and I said in my first post that he would make the hall - but he is consistently considered by CBC and TSN analysts as the best center in the league, or one of the top 5 players in the league for the last 10 years. He may have cracked the top 5 at some point, but at no point was he the best player in the league. Thats evident in his lack of personal awards. Heck he has only cracked 80pts twice in the last 10 years. Oh, and the whole argument that he has/had no support? Would that fall under the 'would've' category? Good player, but vastly overrated and overexposed through the media because of his time in Toronto.

[eva unit zero 271]

Fair enough. But if Sundin is considered a HOFer at this point, then people have include a guy like Paul Kariya when he retires. He will have 1000 pts by the end of the season, and when his career ends in 3 or 4 years they will have very comparable stats. I think what most people see with Sundin is a real lack of recognized personal achievement and no team achievement outside of the Olympics...same goes for Kariya. I don't deny that Sundin is a very good hockey player and I said in my first post that he would make the hall - but he is consistently considered by CBC and TSN analysts as the best center in the league, or one of the top 5 players in the league for the last 10 years. He may have cracked the top 5 at some point, but at no point was he the best player in the league. Thats evident in his lack of personal awards. Heck he has only cracked 80pts twice in the last 10 years. Oh, and the whole argument that he has/had no support? Would that fall under the 'would've' category? Good player, but vastly overrated and overexposed through the media because of his time in Toronto.

He had no support...but posted comparable stats, or in some cases better stats and achievements than players who are being considered for the Hall who played their best years with elite level players in their best years. That suggests his stats and achievements are good enough to get him into the Hall, does it not?

[SweWings 45]

Sundin, more than any other player for me, is the icon of Swedish hockey. When he puts on the jersey, more than Forsberg or Lidström, I expect Sweden to win. And Sundin has delivered. That alone gives him a spot in the Hall, at least for me. And if you want to bash me for some kind of national pride then so be it.

[daniel1 32]

No. Cause he's a *****.

[eva unit zero 271]

Fair enough. But if Sundin is considered a HOFer at this point, then people have include a guy like Paul Kariya when he retires. He will have 1000 pts by the end of the season, and when his career ends in 3 or 4 years they will have very comparable stats. I think what most people see with Sundin is a real lack of recognized personal achievement and no team achievement outside of the Olympics...same goes for Kariya. I don't deny that Sundin is a very good hockey player and I said in my first post that he would make the hall - but he is consistently considered by CBC and TSN analysts as the best center in the league, or one of the top 5 players in the league for the last 10 years. He may have cracked the top 5 at some point, but at no point was he the best player in the league. Thats evident in his lack of personal awards. Heck he has only cracked 80pts twice in the last 10 years. Oh, and the whole argument that he has/had no support? Would that fall under the 'would've' category? Good player, but vastly overrated and overexposed through the media because of his time in Toronto.

You do realize that Kariya is 400 points behind Sundin, and only rarely has been the top offensive player on his team? Sundin, OTOH, has USUALLY been his team's offensive leader, often but not always with no offensive support to speak of. Kariya certainly could match Sundin's numbers, if he remains as healthy as Sundin has (keyword if) but he would need to score 173 goals and 390 points in 402 games to match Sundin. Kariya has scored 139 goals and 400 points in 461 games over the past six seasons, so that kind of production from Kariya seems unlikely given his recent decline and the fact that his game is far more speed-based than Sundin's ever was. Think Cliff Ronning and what he looked like at the end of his career when he went from one of the most versatile second-line scoring centers whose blazing speed was a threat and turned into a slow, defensively and physically weak liability whose only purpose was, well...experience. Like a Chelios without good positioning.

[Yzerfan1999 81]

You do realize that Kariya is 400 points behind Sundin, and only rarely has been the top offensive player on his team? Sundin, OTOH, has USUALLY been his team's offensive leader, often but not always with no offensive support to speak of. Kariya certainly could match Sundin's numbers, if he remains as healthy as Sundin has (keyword if) but he would need to score 173 goals and 390 points in 402 games to match Sundin. Kariya has scored 139 goals and 400 points in 461 games over the past six seasons, so that kind of production from Kariya seems unlikely given his recent decline and the fact that his game is far more speed-based than Sundin's ever was. Think Cliff Ronning and what he looked like at the end of his career when he went from one of the most versatile second-line scoring centers whose blazing speed was a threat and turned into a slow, defensively and physically weak liability whose only purpose was, well...experience. Like a Chelios without good positioning.

I am aware he is 400 points behind Sundin, but he is also 33 years old. I don't expect Kariya to pass Sundin's totals, but I bet they end up pretty damn close, at least within 150 points of one another. From 95-2000 Kariya was one the best players in the NHL - when Gary Suter knocked him out of the Nagano Olympics in 98, I remember it being devastating for Team Canada. He was set to be one of their top liners. And comparing Cliff Ronning to Paul Kariya is just silly, Kariya has way better finish then Ronning ever had.

I don't buy this Sundin had no support crap either. Sure, this year he had nothing, but what about guys like Tucker, Nolan, Allison, Roberts, Antropov, Neiwendyk and Gilmour. There are plenty of above average players - some great players in that group. The Leafs had some half decent teams in the earlier part of this decade. You can make the argument about being consistent, which is all fine and good but he has been a 75-85 point guy with or without some great players on his team. Is that good or bad? I don't consider a player in this league 'premier' or 'elite' until he strings together two or three 90pt seasons, something Sundin has failed to ever do.

Like I said, I am not arguing that Sundin won't make it into the Hall, because he surely will. Toronto will make sure of that - I just think he is an overrated player, and has been for a while.

Edited August 8, 2008 by Yzerfan1999

[HenryMalredo 2]

I am aware he is 400 points behind Sundin, but he is also 33 years old. I don't expect Kariya to pass Sundin's totals, but I bet they end up pretty damn close, at least within 150 points of one another. From 95-2000 Kariya was one the best players in the NHL - when Gary Suter knocked him out of the Nagano Olympics in 98, I remember it being devastating for Team Canada. He was set to be one of their top liners. And comparing Cliff Ronning to Paul Kariya is just silly, Kariya has way better finish then Ronning ever had.

I don't buy this Sundin had no support crap either. Sure, this year he had nothing, but what about guys like Tucker, Nolan, Allison, Roberts, Antropov, Neiwendyk and Gilmour. There are plenty of above average players - some great players in that group. The Leafs had some half decent teams in the earlier part of this decade. You can make the argument about being consistent, which is all fine and good but he has been a 75-85 point guy with or without some great players on his team. Is that good or bad? I don't consider a player in this league 'premier' or 'elite' until he strings together two or three 90pt seasons, something Sundin has failed to ever do.

Like I said, I am not arguing that Sundin won't make it into the Hall, because he surely will. Toronto will make sure of that - I just think he is an overrated player, and has been for a while.

Sundin has been a top player his whole career. Kariya has been a second-liner since he left Anaheim.

[Yzerfan1999 81]

Sundin has been a top player his whole career. Kariya has been a second-liner since he left Anaheim.

I am pretty sure Kariya was getting top line and top PP mins in Nashville, and he is a first liner in St. Louis as well.

Edited August 8, 2008 by Yzerfan1999

[Drake_Marcus 890]

And amazingly, I can debunk ALL TEN of those reasons with JUST the following two words:

Cam Neely.

Hahaha- that poor bastard gets invoked in this sense far too often to be a happy HoFer.

[eva unit zero 271]

I am aware he is 400 points behind Sundin, but he is also 33 years old.

For a frame of reference on this point...

Mats Sundin is approximately 3 years and 8 months older than Paul Kariya. In terms of playing eligibility, he was drafted four years earlier. Do you think Kariya can average 100-point seasons over the four-year gap that separates them?

[Yzerfan1999 81]

For a frame of reference on this point...

Mats Sundin is approximately 3 years and 8 months older than Paul Kariya. In terms of playing eligibility, he was drafted four years earlier. Do you think Kariya can average 100-point seasons over the four-year gap that separates them?

Absolutely not, but close to 250-300 is not out of the question. Take a look at their points per game. Pretty close with Kariya slightly ahead at 1.022 to Sundin's 1.005. I am not saying he will surpass Sundin's point totals, but their careers are pretty similar if you ask me. Both were elite players at some point, both have Olympic gold medals, but Kariya has more first (3) and second (2) All-Star team namings, two Lady Byngs, an Olympic Silver and the Hobey Baker Award. Sundin was never selected as a starter for an All-Star game, and was a second team All Star twice. That kind of puts the idea that Kariya was never considered an elite player in the last decade and Sundin has on thin ice, at least not according to the fans.

[eva unit zero 271]

Absolutely not, but close to 250-300 is not out of the question. Take a look at their points per game. Pretty close with Kariya slightly ahead at 1.022 to Sundin's 1.005. I am not saying he will surpass Sundin's point totals, but their careers are pretty similar if you ask me. Both were elite players at some point, both have Olympic gold medals, but Kariya has more first (3) and second (2) All-Star team namings, two Lady Byngs, an Olympic Silver and the Hobey Baker Award. Sundin was never selected as a starter for an All-Star game, and was a second team All Star twice. That kind of puts the idea that Kariya was never considered an elite player in the last decade and Sundin has on thin ice, at least not according to the fans.

Kariya will probably score between 200-300 points over the next four seasons. The thing is...that makes him offensively comparable to Sundin, who was considerably better defensively and physically. I would argue that a much more complete player like Sundin, who lacked major career accomplishments due to loyalty to a very poorly managed franchise, is not 'even' as far as the HOF goes with an offensively similar player like Kariya, who refused to take a pay cut to improve the team that drafted him, and instead signed elsewhere for considerably less than he was offered by the Ducks because he felt insulted. He did this only to improve his market standing, as the contract he signed with Colorado would make him a UFA as soon as possible. He would go on to sign with Nashville, until he received a better UFA offer from St. Louis a few years later. He keeps signing with bad teams that can pay him rather than staying with or moving to a good team that could just use one more decent top-six winger to put them in contention. Does Kariya want a paycheck, or a Stanley Cup ring? If it's the former, is he a HOFer?

[Yzerfan1999 81]

Kariya will probably score between 200-300 points over the next four seasons. The thing is...that makes him offensively comparable to Sundin, who was considerably better defensively and physically. I would argue that a much more complete player like Sundin, who lacked major career accomplishments due to loyalty to a very poorly managed franchise, is not 'even' as far as the HOF goes with an offensively similar player like Kariya, who refused to take a pay cut to improve the team that drafted him, and instead signed elsewhere for considerably less than he was offered by the Ducks because he felt insulted. He did this only to improve his market standing, as the contract he signed with Colorado would make him a UFA as soon as possible. He would go on to sign with Nashville, until he received a better UFA offer from St. Louis a few years later. He keeps signing with bad teams that can pay him rather than staying with or moving to a good team that could just use one more decent top-six winger to put them in contention. Does Kariya want a paycheck, or a Stanley Cup ring? If it's the former, is he a HOFer?

You bring up a good point, and I completely respect team loyalty - but I don't think they consider the character of a player in that sense when they decide who goes into the hall. The only thing they will look at relating to Kariya's character is the fact that he won a couple of Lady Byng's, which actually helps his cause. If they were that serious about loyalty, a guy like Ray Bourque, who ditched Boston after two decades just to win a Cup in Denver, would have been looked down upon. Don't get me wrong, I think loyalty and respect for the game and your team should be part of the process, but I just don't get the idea that they frown upon guys leaving a team for a big paycheck or a Cup. Its more about the stats for them.

[eva unit zero 271]

You bring up a good point, and I completely respect team loyalty - but I don't think they consider the character of a player in that sense when they decide who goes into the hall. The only thing they will look at relating to Kariya's character is the fact that he won a couple of Lady Byng's, which actually helps his cause. If they were that serious about loyalty, a guy like Ray Bourque, who ditched Boston after two decades just to win a Cup in Denver, would have been looked down upon. Don't get me wrong, I think loyalty and respect for the game and your team should be part of the process, but I just don't get the idea that they frown upon guys leaving a team for a big paycheck or a Cup. Its more about the stats for them.

Ray Bourque was a lock for the hall by 1990. He was a first or second team All-Star in every single one of his first seventeen seasons in the NHL. That's ridiculous. He could have just left Boston as a free agent in the early 90s and gone Cup-hunting and he'd have still made the hall, even if he didn't win one. Bourque could have retired after the 1990 finals and he still makes the Hall. Now please...never compare Paul Kariya to Ray Bourque again? One is one of the best all-around players to ever play his position. One was a one-dimensional player who was among the best players at his position for a fairly short time. There is no comparison.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Sundin is a hall of famer even if he retired today.

[Yzerfan1999 81]

Ray Bourque was a lock for the hall by 1990. He was a first or second team All-Star in every single one of his first seventeen seasons in the NHL. That's ridiculous. He could have just left Boston as a free agent in the early 90s and gone Cup-hunting and he'd have still made the hall, even if he didn't win one. Bourque could have retired after the 1990 finals and he still makes the Hall. Now please...never compare Paul Kariya to Ray Bourque again? One is one of the best all-around players to ever play his position. One was a one-dimensional player who was among the best players at his position for a fairly short time. There is no comparison.

I used Bourque as an example. You are right, there is no comparison. No where in that post did I deny Bourque's HOF position, nor did I compare him to Kariya - he was merely a tool to prove a point that they don't consider loyalty when they put you in the hall.