Residual effect from Gretzky trade still felt today

[#19=Legend 29]

Article

Good read.

Really makes you wonder what the NHL would be like today.

Roy was enraged after the Detroit Red Wings poured nine goals past him en route to a 12-1 shelling of the Habs on Dec. 2. When Roy was finally pulled in the second period of the drubbing, the netminder stormed past Tremblay and mouthed to team president Ronald Corey, who was sitting behind the bench, that he was done in Montreal. By the end of that week Roy was shipped to Denver.

[Z and D for the C 712]

Members of Parliament suggested having the trade blocked (ah, Canadian politicians, you've got to love them) on the grounds that Gretzky was a national treasure.

LOL!

[servo 15]

More of a challenge in LA than Detroit? Back then the only thing Gretsky would have won here would have been a new car at one of the games.

[joshy207 156]

Gretzky would have won more than a car (which, by that time, Ilitch was no longer giving away) with Detroit. Did you forget that the Wings made the Campbell finals in 87 and 88, losing to Gretzky's Oilers both years? With Gretzky in his prime, Yzerman at his offensive peak, and if Devellano had made a few more moves to shore up the D and goaltending, the Wings would have gotten a jump-start on their return to the top of the league.

Had Gretzky not gone to LA--either by coming to Detroit or staying in Edmonton--the league would look nothing like it does today. The Kings would likely still exist, but Anaheim, Florida, Atlanta, and Nashville wouldn't have gotten expansion teams. Tampa and Columbus may not have either. Minnesota, Quebec, Winnipeg, and Hartford might never had moved.

Salaries would not be what they are today, as the "big-time" owners like Huizenga (Blockbuster) and Disney probably wouldn't have gotten involved, the League wouldn't have chased a national TV contract in the US (no national footprint and possibly no Bettman), and the owners wouldn't have had the expansion revenues to play with.

The European Invasion probably wouldn't have been as big as it has been either, if the salaries were still lower. (Why would so many guys cross the pond if the money wasn't there?) I think the Western Europeans (Swedes, Finns, Germans, Swiss, etc) and the bigger-name Russians, Czechs, Slovaks, and the like would still have come, but not in large numbers and possibly a shorter time.

Terms like "Lockout", "Versus", "Salary Cap", and maybe even "ESPN" and "Bettman" would be foreign to us.

If we could see the alternate universe where Gretzky never went to LA, I'd say we were looking at an NHL with 24 teams, at least 8 in Canada; average salaries per team around $40M; average player salaries around $1.5-2M, topping out around $5-6M; the Campbell and Prince of Wales Conferences and the old division names would still be around.

[eva unit zero 271]

Gretzky would have won more than a car (which, by that time, Ilitch was no longer giving away) with Detroit. Did you forget that the Wings made the Campbell finals in 87 and 88, losing to Gretzky's Oilers both years? With Gretzky in his prime, Yzerman at his offensive peak, and if Devellano had made a few more moves to shore up the D and goaltending, the Wings would have gotten a jump-start on their return to the top of the league.

Had Gretzky not gone to LA--either by coming to Detroit or staying in Edmonton--the league would look nothing like it does today. The Kings would likely still exist, but Anaheim, Florida, Atlanta, and Nashville wouldn't have gotten expansion teams. Tampa and Columbus may not have either. Minnesota, Quebec, Winnipeg, and Hartford might never had moved.

All of this speculation about a '24 team league' is pretty silly. The NHL had laid out plans to expand to 30 teams before Gretzky was ever traded.

Some of the cities might be different, but ultimately I don't think so and here's why:

Expansion in the 90s moved in phases, and the most suitable cities were chosen each time around. Rarely was a northern market passed over; the only instances where this occurred were situations where arena plans or other fundamental details were not suitable or non-existant. Hamilton and Portland are two major examples; both markets would have gotten teams with better arenas; there is no "maybe" about it. If those two expansion bids had included solid public or private funding for a new arena, or the areas had a more suitable NHL-size arena, both of those metropolitan areas would have NHL teams.

However, of the teams you mentioned that moved? Minnesota was receiving terrible attendance and mediocre corporate support and the move in 1993 was the second attempt to move the franchise. The first in 1990 was blocked and then resulted in the dissolution of the Cleveland Barons/Minnesota North Stars merger and through a dispersal draft and expansion draft gave us the San Jose Sharks, and then the remaining owner eventually decided that his old partner was correct and in 1993 moved the remaning franchise to Dallas.

Winnipeg has always been one of the worst NHL markets as far as corporate support, and as far as straight attendance goes they never once averaged better than 14,000 for a season. Not once. During the 'Dead Wings' era when the Wings were having some of their worst seasons ever, they still drew better than 16k. In fact, the Wings haven't averaged less than 18k attendance in over 20 seasons.

Hartford? Hartford should never have had an NHL team. Hartford is a small city. Ann Arbor is better equipped to support an NHL team than Hartford is. Wayne Gretzky staying in Edmonton wouldn't have kept the Whalers in Hartford. Gretzky getting traded to Hartford might have, but that's about it.

As far as Disney? They got involved when the Stars were still in Minnesota. Remember? Mike Modano and Basil McRae? "I thought you were a farmer?" and all that stuff? Anaheim had a team because that's where Disney was based. It had NOTHING to do with interest in hockey; rather, it had to do with interest in money. The NHL was skyrocketing because popular teams with large national fan bases (Such as Montreal, NY Rangers, Detroit, Chicago, Philadelphia, Boston) were doing well in the regular season and/or playoffs in the years leading up to the 1993 expansion. This meant there was a rise in TV viewership, and therefore ad revenue. Disney likes money. They saw an opportunity to get in on the ground floor with the NHL looking to increase its presence in the southern US. Disney likely bids for a team either way. Whether the Ducks stay in Anaheim long term without the Gretzky trade? That's different. But they would have been there either way.

Salaries would not be what they are today, as the "big-time" owners like Huizenga (Blockbuster) and Disney probably wouldn't have gotten involved, the League wouldn't have chased a national TV contract in the US (no national footprint and possibly no Bettman), and the owners wouldn't have had the expansion revenues to play with.

The European Invasion probably wouldn't have been as big as it has been either, if the salaries were still lower. (Why would so many guys cross the pond if the money wasn't there?) I think the Western Europeans (Swedes, Finns, Germans, Swiss, etc) and the bigger-name Russians, Czechs, Slovaks, and the like would still have come, but not in large numbers and possibly a shorter time.

Terms like "Lockout", "Versus", "Salary Cap", and maybe even "ESPN" and "Bettman" would be foreign to us.

If we could see the alternate universe where Gretzky never went to LA, I'd say we were looking at an NHL with 24 teams, at least 8 in Canada; average salaries per team around $40M; average player salaries around $1.5-2M, topping out around $5-6M; the Campbell and Prince of Wales Conferences and the old division names would still be around.

No. We'd see an NHL with 30 teams. If the average team payroll was about $40m, the top-end salary would be around $10m or $11m. That's what the average team and top-end player salaries were pre-lockout, so why would spending habits be any different, right?

As far as the "nostalgia" for the Campbell and Wales conference names...grow up. Those names were only around for 15 years. They are not "the old' names unless you have no grasp of the history and tradition of the NHL, or are just looking for a reason to bash the current leadership of the league. The NHL spent 11 years with "Western" and "Eastern" before it saw a single season with "Campbell" and "Wales" naming the conferences. So please stop with the bitching about conference names. And no, Gretzky staying in Edmonton would NOT have kept Campbell and Wales as the conference names. Grow the f*** up.

[joshy207 156]

Grow the f*** up.

Classy as always.

[revnic 0]

lmfao someone is offended...lets calm ourselves.

Edited August 9, 2008 by revnic

[LeftWinger 5,153]

Gretzky would have won more than a car (which, by that time, Ilitch was no longer giving away) with Detroit. Did you forget that the Wings made the Campbell finals in 87 and 88, losing to Gretzky's Oilers both years? With Gretzky in his prime, Yzerman at his offensive peak, and if Devellano had made a few more moves to shore up the D and goaltending, the Wings would have gotten a jump-start on their return to the top of the league.

...problem here is, ANY trade involving Gretzky to Detroit would include Yzerman as compensation...

...if they would have gotten Gretz (and was able to keep Stevie) they would have been a better team in 1988-1989 then guess what, the 1989 draft goes WAAAAAAY different. You're in a different draft position and you possibly don't get: Lidstrom, Fedorov, Drake (who brought us Draper) and Konstantinov. They make the playoffs in 89-90 and you don't get Primeau (who brought us Shanahan) and in 1991 you probably don't get Osgood or Lapointe. So, if Gretzky would've come here, odds are he would have taken Yzerman away from us, eventually convinced Devellano to trade for all his former Oiler mates (just like LA, St. Louis and NYR did) and I think we'd still be looking for our first Cup since 1955...

...Not coming to Detroit is the best thing to happen to the league AND to Detroit! How many Cups did Gretzky win AFTER being traded? And How many does Detroit have since then? Thanks but no thanks to Wayne Gretzky...

[Doggy 130]

Classy as always.

Yeah, where the hell did that come from? LOL.

[FinRedWing 172]

Yeah, where the hell did that come from? LOL.

89,78% chance of me not knowing either.

[Doggy 130]

89,78% chance of me not knowing either.

Nice try but if there's one thing you should've learnt from eva, it's that any statistics whether relevant or not, allow you to pretend to know what you're talking about.

[swiss_fan 3]

89,78% chance of me not knowing either.

[imisssergei 0]

...problem here is, ANY trade involving Gretzky to Detroit would include Yzerman as compensation...

...if they would have gotten Gretz (and was able to keep Stevie) they would have been a better team in 1988-1989 then guess what, the 1989 draft goes WAAAAAAY different. You're in a different draft position and you possibly don't get: Lidstrom, Fedorov, Drake (who brought us Draper) and Konstantinov. They make the playoffs in 89-90 and you don't get Primeau (who brought us Shanahan) and in 1991 you probably don't get Osgood or Lapointe. So, if Gretzky would've come here, odds are he would have taken Yzerman away from us, eventually convinced Devellano to trade for all his former Oiler mates (just like LA, St. Louis and NYR did) and I think we'd still be looking for our first Cup since 1955...

...Not coming to Detroit is the best thing to happen to the league AND to Detroit! How many Cups did Gretzky win AFTER being traded? And How many does Detroit have since then? Thanks but no thanks to Wayne Gretzky...

Yes Stevie would have went over for Gretzky.

However, the team isn't suddenly a much better team with Wayne. They might have put up a few more wins, but back then the Wings were pretty bad because they didn't have anyone around Stevie. Bringing in Wayne and shipping out Stevie wouldn't have been a huge upgrade.

The Wings still have the chance draft everyone they did, possibly not Primeau or Lapointe, but evenso, the Wings still get everyone else. Seriously, do some research before you start spouting off things like that.

Lidstrom - 3rd round pick in 89

Fedorov - 4th round pick in 89

Drake - 6th round pick in 89

Vladdy -11th round pick in 89

Primeau - 1st round pick in 90

Osgood - 3rd round pick in 91

Lapointe -1st round pick in 91

And just a lil' FYI.....Detroit Red Wings traded Dallas Drake and Tim Cheveldae to the Winnipeg Jets for Bob Essensa and Sergei Bautin, in March of 1994.

In 1996 Detroit traded Essensa back to Winnipeg for future considerations. Bautin played 2 more games in the NHL, one with Detroit and one with San Jose.

It was June of 1993 that the Wings traded future considerations for Draper. Those future considerations turned out to be a dollar. Drake had nothing to do with the Wings getting Draper as Drake was part of a separate deal the following March.

[imisssergei 0]

All of this speculation about a '24 team league' is pretty silly. The NHL had laid out plans to expand to 30 teams before Gretzky was ever traded.

Some of the cities might be different, but ultimately I don't think so and here's why:

Expansion in the 90s moved in phases, and the most suitable cities were chosen each time around. Rarely was a northern market passed over; the only instances where this occurred were situations where arena plans or other fundamental details were not suitable or non-existant. Hamilton and Portland are two major examples; both markets would have gotten teams with better arenas; there is no "maybe" about it. If those two expansion bids had included solid public or private funding for a new arena, or the areas had a more suitable NHL-size arena, both of those metropolitan areas would have NHL teams.

However, of the teams you mentioned that moved? Minnesota was receiving terrible attendance and mediocre corporate support and the move in 1993 was the second attempt to move the franchise. The first in 1990 was blocked and then resulted in the dissolution of the Cleveland Barons/Minnesota North Stars merger and through a dispersal draft and expansion draft gave us the San Jose Sharks, and then the remaining owner eventually decided that his old partner was correct and in 1993 moved the remaning franchise to Dallas.

Winnipeg has always been one of the worst NHL markets as far as corporate support, and as far as straight attendance goes they never once averaged better than 14,000 for a season. Not once. During the 'Dead Wings' era when the Wings were having some of their worst seasons ever, they still drew better than 16k. In fact, the Wings haven't averaged less than 18k attendance in over 20 seasons.

Hartford? Hartford should never have had an NHL team. Hartford is a small city. Ann Arbor is better equipped to support an NHL team than Hartford is. Wayne Gretzky staying in Edmonton wouldn't have kept the Whalers in Hartford. Gretzky getting traded to Hartford might have, but that's about it.

As far as Disney? They got involved when the Stars were still in Minnesota. Remember? Mike Modano and Basil McRae? "I thought you were a farmer?" and all that stuff? Anaheim had a team because that's where Disney was based. It had NOTHING to do with interest in hockey; rather, it had to do with interest in money. The NHL was skyrocketing because popular teams with large national fan bases (Such as Montreal, NY Rangers, Detroit, Chicago, Philadelphia, Boston) were doing well in the regular season and/or playoffs in the years leading up to the 1993 expansion. This meant there was a rise in TV viewership, and therefore ad revenue. Disney likes money. They saw an opportunity to get in on the ground floor with the NHL looking to increase its presence in the southern US. Disney likely bids for a team either way. Whether the Ducks stay in Anaheim long term without the Gretzky trade? That's different. But they would have been there either way.

No. We'd see an NHL with 30 teams. If the average team payroll was about $40m, the top-end salary would be around $10m or $11m. That's what the average team and top-end player salaries were pre-lockout, so why would spending habits be any different, right?

As far as the "nostalgia" for the Campbell and Wales conference names...grow up. Those names were only around for 15 years. They are not "the old' names unless you have no grasp of the history and tradition of the NHL, or are just looking for a reason to bash the current leadership of the league. The NHL spent 11 years with "Western" and "Eastern" before it saw a single season with "Campbell" and "Wales" naming the conferences. So please stop with the bitching about conference names. And no, Gretzky staying in Edmonton would NOT have kept Campbell and Wales as the conference names. Grow the f*** up.

[auxlepli 17]

eva unit zero is right.

[eva unit zero 271]

Yes Stevie would have went over for Gretzky.

However, the team isn't suddenly a much better team with Wayne. They might have put up a few more wins, but back then the Wings were pretty bad because they didn't have anyone around Stevie. Bringing in Wayne and shipping out Stevie wouldn't have been a huge upgrade.

The Wings still have the chance draft everyone they did, possibly not Primeau or Lapointe, but evenso, the Wings still get everyone else. Seriously, do some research before you start spouting off things like that.

Lidstrom - 3rd round pick in 89

Fedorov - 4th round pick in 89

Drake - 6th round pick in 89

Vladdy -11th round pick in 89

Primeau - 1st round pick in 90

Osgood - 3rd round pick in 91

Lapointe -1st round pick in 91

And just a lil' FYI.....Detroit Red Wings traded Dallas Drake and Tim Cheveldae to the Winnipeg Jets for Bob Essensa and Sergei Bautin, in March of 1994.

In 1996 Detroit traded Essensa back to Winnipeg for future considerations. Bautin played 2 more games in the NHL, one with Detroit and one with San Jose.

It was June of 1993 that the Wings traded future considerations for Draper. Those future considerations turned out to be a dollar. Drake had nothing to do with the Wings getting Draper as Drake was part of a separate deal the following March.

Essensa was traded to Edmonton after the 1994-95 season, not Winnipeg.

[Doggy 130]

Essensa was traded to Edmonton after the 1994-95 season, not Winnipeg.

But I remember it was after the short season we called up Hodson and that sent Essensa down to the minors and caused a bit of controversy coz everyone thought his career was over, so the trade must've been later than '95.

[imisssergei 0]

But I remember it was after the short season we called up Hodson and that sent Essensa down to the minors and caused a bit of controversy coz everyone thought his career was over, so the trade must've been later than '95.

Per TSN...

June 14, 1996 Detroit Red Wings traded Bob Essensa to the Edmonton Oilers for future considerations.

[Chelichic 12]

good read... I liked this part...

"Members of Parliament suggested having the trade blocked (ah, Canadian politicians, you've got to love them) on the grounds that Gretzky was a national treasure."

LOL

[eva unit zero 271]

The best possible realistic trade that lands Gretzky in Detroit in 1988 sees all of Klima, Oates, Murphy, Sharples, as well as the team's next three first round draft picks and cash shipped to Alberta if we are talking about the same kind of package that Los Angeles received. That might not be better for the Wings than what actually occurred long-term.

[auxlepli 17]

What about franchises that sprouted in unlikely locales like Anaheim, Phoenix, Nashville, Tampa and Atlanta?

No one knows, of course, but the safe answer would be -- not bloody likely

I've never bought the argument the Gretzky trade brought NHL teams to Sunbelt cities.

Atlanta had a team years before Gretzky was even a professional hockey player. Atlanta embraced the Flames, and later the IHL Knights, which won a championship there. The Flames failed because the owner failed. It had nothing to do at all with the box office draw.

[Tane 17]

Draper Had nothing to do with essenssa. We got him for a Dollar. I don't know if it was Paper, Or if it was a Loonie....but a dollar for Draper nonetheless.

I Remember Well, trading Essenssa to Edmonton for Future Considerations. I was upset by that. I liked Him, I liked Vernon and Osgood too, but I liked essenssa, and was disappointed he didn't make his mark as a wing. I was Sad to See Cheveldae go, but thouhgt at least we get a premier goalie in return for Him (He was "premier" to me, because he was on the 91-92 Pro Set GAA Leaders Card. That meant he HAD to be really good, right)

Alas We traded our Returns From Chevy and Drake away for Future Considerations. I payed Close attention over the next year or so, To find out What we'd Get for Essenssa.

I think Someone up top Might have forgotten this Trade, and Edmonton Still Owes us some Considerations. With 13 years of Intrest added on to our consideration, Think we could make a play for hemsky?

[Yzerfan1999 81]

The best possible realistic trade that lands Gretzky in Detroit in 1988 sees all of Klima, Oates, Murphy, Sharples, as well as the team's next three first round draft picks and cash shipped to Alberta if we are talking about the same kind of package that Los Angeles received. That might not be better for the Wings than what actually occurred long-term.

Never would have happened. Pocklington wanted MONEY for Gretzky to keep the remainder of the Oilers afloat. He thought, possibly incorrectly, that it was financially impossible to keep Gretz. in Edmonton, and getting cash in return helped him salvage 2 or 3 more years of good hockey in Edmonton. That or he needed the cash for his other business ventures. I don't think he was all that interested in getting fair value in hockey players back.

[auxlepli 17]

In my opinion this is a better article about the trade. Still it's littered with illogical conclusions.

"For sure, him coming here was the best thing that could happen to hockey," said former teammate and current Kings executive Luc Robitaille. "When you do well in Los Angeles, everybody knows and starts watching."

Really? Chicago, Philadelphia and New York don't mean anything?

In the meantime, seeing the Kings succeed in a non-traditional market encouraged the NHL to try for the same results in places like San Jose, Anaheim, Tampa Bay and Miami. That early 1990s expansion set the stage for handing out even more franchises through the remainder of the decade, a period when the NHL began dotting the South and Southwest. The NHL ended up growing to 30 teams during that rush, 24 in the U.S., a strategy that was intended to get the league a much-coveted national network television contract.

There were only two places to go at that time - south and west - and both are non-traditional.

[imisssergei 0]

The best possible realistic trade that lands Gretzky in Detroit in 1988 sees all of Klima, Oates, Murphy, Sharples, as well as the team's next three first round draft picks and cash shipped to Alberta if we are talking about the same kind of package that Los Angeles received. That might not be better for the Wings than what actually occurred long-term.

There is no way Detroit gets Wayne without parting with Stevie.