Maltby

[betterREDthandead 58]

I wasn't questioning the validity of his stats, but like GAA is a slightly misleading stat so can PK average time.

Au contraire - average ice time per game killing penalties is about the best you're gonna get. I mean, what else do you want? The more shorthanded time on ice you have, the more trusted you are killing penalties. It's a direct correlation. Hell, even Quincey's numbers are pretty significant even despite the sample size; it shows that during the games he played, he was entrusted, more so than most of the regular defensemen, with killing penalties.

What could possibly be misleading about it?

[norrisnick 1]

Au contraire - average ice time per game killing penalties is about the best you're gonna get. I mean, what else do you want? The more shorthanded time on ice you have, the more trusted you are killing penalties. It's a direct correlation. Hell, even Quincey's numbers are pretty significant even despite the sample size; it shows that during the games he played, he was entrusted, more so than most of the regular defensemen, with killing penalties.

What could possibly be misleading about it?

By the time Q got into the lineup Nick, Raf, Kronner, and Cheli were out.

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

maltby is lazy and he sucks

[betterREDthandead 58]

By the time Q got into the lineup Nick, Raf, Kronner, and Cheli were out.

I forgot about that. And probably, Stuart wasn't yet on the team either. I've tried to expunge the Great Defenseman Shortage from my mind, it was an ugly time.

[Opie 308]

Au contraire - average ice time per game killing penalties is about the best you're gonna get. I mean, what else do you want? The more shorthanded time on ice you have, the more trusted you are killing penalties. It's a direct correlation. Hell, even Quincey's numbers are pretty significant even despite the sample size; it shows that during the games he played, he was entrusted, more so than most of the regular defensemen, with killing penalties.

What could possibly be misleading about it?

I guess my wording may be off, I was referring to the fact that Malts logged substantial PK time mainly due to injuries.

For instance Drake was out of the line up for a while, Maltby was a great option to have as a back up.

Again I am not saying Malts is a waste of roster space but that there are much better options.

Malts was an option behind Drake, Draper, and Z, that fourth Killer was often times Dats or Mule or Maltby or Cleary. When injuries occurred Babs put his most experienced pker in there.

When I said misleading I didn't mean in general I meant in reference to this situation, unfortunately I didn't type it very well.

But lets try it again.

In this situation PK ave time can be misleading because Malts picked up (deservedly so) the minutes that Drake would have handled. My point in this was that Malts in general has slipped, and the wings have players that are better suited to be on the ice instead of Malts. He would be a starter on most teams around the league, not saying he is washed up, saying on this roster the need for him is lessened and I feel it is better for the team if he were not a regular player because the players the wings have that can kill penalties (we can all pretty much agree he brings PK and Defense only) are also great defensive and very good offensive players, other than Z and D who are great at both ends(because I said very good I wanted to clarify that).

One of the reasons I said press box not trade him, is the fact that injuries happen and having Malts as a 13th forward covers up many voids that could be left by an injury other than offense.

One of the new things with this board is people arguing extremes, because I said he should be the 13th forward does not mean I hate him or that I think he is a horrible, it is just that I think the wings have better options than Maltby for the starting 12.

[Shutemdown 23]

This is the biggest problem with your posts, you sir don't pay attention OR have comprehension problems.

When did I ever say I wanted him gone so badly, my original comment was that I thought the wings were best served with him in the press box, as I believe there are better options out there. You translate that to I want him gone badly just because he is Maltby. WHICH IS WRONG.

I explained why I thought others were better options and I also stated my thoughts on Maltby and none of them were negative or bashing.

You have this uncanny ability to take a person's post and twist their words all around to help your argument.

I have nothing against him personally, I just think their are better options, the same way others think about Cheli.

First off, why bother calling someone out on having comprehension issues or not paying attention? Could it be that your mindless insults to the POSTER and not the POST could be distracting to people? Honestly... people are more worried about responding to your posts because YOU ATTACK THEM. Stick to the thread and the topic at hand, bro. In turn, I'm sure other posters will be more "comprehensive" or pay more attention.

Secondly, this isn't the first post that seems... controversial. Your sarcasm or offensively-based posts make others feel like you're attacking them instead of replying to their post. Maybe try arguing your point without actually arguing with the people who posted the reply?

You stated that you'd rather see Malts in the press box. How is that NOT saying he shouldn't play? Sounds like you'd rather have him off the ice than on. That's a fair argument, and primarily true, but when people ask why, don't call them out for not being more attentive...

Maybe you should clarify your posts before you start running your mouth to other people for misunderstanding, sir.

Edited August 14, 2008 by Shutemdown

[Opie 308]

First off, why bother calling someone out on having comprehension issues or not paying attention? Could it be that your mindless insults to the POSTER and not the POST could be distracting to people? Honestly... people are more worried about responding to your posts because YOU ATTACK THEM. Stick to the thread and the topic at hand, bro. In turn, I'm sure other posters will be more "comprehensive" or pay more attention.

Secondly, this isn't the first post that seems... controversial. Your sarcasm or offensively-based posts make others feel like you're attacking them instead of replying to their post. Maybe try arguing your point without actually arguing with the people who posted the reply?

You stated that you'd rather see Malts in the press box. How is that NOT saying he shouldn't play? Sounds like you'd rather have him off the ice than on. That's a fair argument, and primarily true, but when people ask why, don't call them out for not being more attentive...

Maybe you should clarify your posts before you start running your mouth to other people for misunderstanding, sir.

EDIT: Please read my response to BRTD, the post just above the one you posted last, which may have been posted as you were writing this.

BRTD and I have had difference of opinions in the past as well as GMR. However I have had a lot more with GMR. What usually happens is we go at it for a while, give up and leave with neither of us changing opinion, we are just hashing them out.

I may have referred to the way GMR was posting but that was after the thread went to the s***ter (I am to blame as much as anyone).

GMR and I have gone back and forth for many months about enforcers, players, and whatever else you want to bring up, we have distinctly different opinions of what the Wings should and shouldn't do. Having said that, I didn't start anything with him, THIS TIME, he responded to my post which I responded to him.

IF you have a problem with the way I post towards you than let me know and I will gladly try to not post sarcastically towards you, but when GMR and I are going back and forth, well at least on my part, it is nothing personnel, I don't take his posts as attacking me.

As far as not saying Malt shouldn't play, I have stated multiple times that my thoughts are based on whether or not he should play on this the 08-09 version of the Wings. My opinion is no, when I say that I am not saying his contributions in the past were junk and I am not even saying he couldn't play on another team. Hell I am not even saying he won't play for these Wings this year. Saying he should be in the press box, while it may not be clear, is saying he should be the 13th forward, odds are he will play this year IF he were to be the 13th forward. An injury could crop up, Babs could want to give a guy a rest, so Malts would be the logical choice as he would be the veteran guy who has a good defensive game and can give PKers a rest.

If I have misspoken about stats or a player I will correct myself, I have done it in the past, and even in this thread I admitted my message was not clear. If you want to point out where my post was wrong or unclear I will gladly correct what I was trying to say, however if you want me to post differently towards GMR, that is none of your concern, if he doesn't like the way I post towards him he can speak up for himself, trust me he is a big boy and can handle himself with me. We have done this enough with each other for me to know that.

Edited August 14, 2008 by Opie

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I am sorry was I talking to you, did you read my posts, I stated specifics about Maltby, I may have referred to the way GMR was posting but that was after the thread went to the s***ter (I am to blame as much as anyone).

GMR and I have gone back and forth for many months about enforcers, players, and whatever else you want to bring up, we have distinctly different opinions of what the Wings should and shouldn't do. Having said that, I didn't start anything with him, THIS TIME, he responded to my post which I responded to him.

IF you have a problem with the way I post towards you than let me know and I will gladly try to not post sarcastically towards you, but when GMR and I are going back and forth, well at least on my part, it is nothing personnel, I don't take his posts as attacking me.

As far as not saying Malt shouldn't play, I have stated multiple times that my thoughts are based on whether or not he should play on this the 08-09 version of the Wings. My opinion is no, when I say that I am not saying his contributions in the past were junk and I am not even saying he couldn't play on another team. Hell I am not even saying he won't play for these Wings this year. Saying he should be in the press box, while it may not be clear, is saying he should be the 13th forward, odds are he will play this year IF he were to be the 13th forward. An injury could crop up, Babs could want to give a guy a rest, so Malts would be the logical choice as he would be the veteran guy who has a good defensive game and can give PKers a rest.

If I have misspoken about stats or a player I will correct myself, I have done it in the past, and even in this thread I admitted my message was not clear. If you want to point out where my post was wrong or unclear I will gladly correct what I was trying to say, however if you want me to post differently towards GMR, that is none of your concern, if he doesn't like the way I post towards him he can speak up for himself, trust me he is a big boy and can handle himself with me. We have done this enough with each other for me to know that.

I saw GMR listed so many times in your post that I felt kind of scared for a while.

My question for you is who are these better options that you speak of to play on the checking/shut down line with Draper. Cleary I'm guessing is one of them, but who's the other. Kopecky has proven nothing, and neither Sammy, Hudler or Helm are checkers or defensive players.

Maltby has the best chemistry with Draper. They need to stay together because of their experience at being able to shut down opposing lines.

[thedisappearer 291]

Yes because the demand for a 37 year old pk specialist with limited to no upside is in such a high demand Holland must have suitors lined up all over the place.

Of course there are no suitors- everyone knows we wouldn't trade Malts.

But do you honestly think that a young team with little to no playoff experience, but the talent to make a deep run wouldn't want a vet with 3 Cups in the dressing room? I bet you dollars to doughnuts that the Pens would have liked to have Malts for this year's playoff run.

[Opie 308]

I saw GMR listed so many times in your post that I felt kind of scared for a while.

My question for you is who are these better options that you speak of to play on the checking/shut down line with Draper. Cleary I'm guessing is one of them, but who's the other. Kopecky has proven nothing, and neither Sammy, Hudler or Helm are checkers or defensive players.

Maltby has the best chemistry with Draper. They need to stay together because of their experience at being able to shut down opposing lines.

You and I are going to severely disagree on this,

But I play sammy with Drapes and Cleary.

I think you are severely underestimating Sammy's defensive ability.

But he would provide a very solid line and I believe after last season that Cleary has plenty of chemistry with Draper.

[Opie 308]

Of course there are no suitors- everyone knows we wouldn't trade Malts.

But do you honestly think that a young team with little to no playoff experience, but the talent to make a deep run wouldn't want a vet with 3 Cups in the dressing room? I bet you dollars to doughnuts that the Pens would have liked to have Malts for this year's playoff run.

Oh I bet there are teams that if Det said who wants malts for a low draft pick or hey Malts is on waivers teams would be all over it, however no one is knocking down his door for Malts, and my statements are pure speculation. He could not be trading him because Babs wants to start him in the top 12.

I would not take that donut bet, because as I said he would be a starter on most teams in the league, I was making a statement about him playing for this team, not the Pens, not the Sens, or the B's. Just he Wings and with the players the wings have and the all around game most of the forwards have, IMO the wings would be best served if he was not a starter.

That does not mean he isn't already on Babs 3rd line, it just makes it my opinion, so whether or not Malts could be traded has nothing to do with the situation.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

You and I are going to severely disagree on this,

But I play sammy with Drapes and Cleary.

I think you are severely underestimating Sammy's defensive ability.

But he would provide a very solid line and I believe after last season that Cleary has plenty of chemistry with Draper.

It would be a new role for Sammy, since he's never really been a 3rd line checker exclusivelly. The problem with Sammy, as many have mentioned, is that he can either be on the 2nd line where most fans hate him, or on the bench, because he's not thought as a guy that can be a checker or grinder on the 3rd or 4th line.

I guess it's a matter of opinion, but I'd rather have Maltby in that spot, where we've had a good shut down line for a long time. No reason to change all that just to obtain more scoring.

The biggest benefit I see with your suggestion is that neither Draper nor Cleary are guys who shoot often, so if Sammy does his usual stupid routine in the offensive end, it wouldn't take away from those guys offensively. But defensively, I take Maltby over Sammy any day in that role. I don't think Draper would mind either.

[eva unit zero 271]

I saw GMR listed so many times in your post that I felt kind of scared for a while.

My question for you is who are these better options that you speak of to play on the checking/shut down line with Draper. Cleary I'm guessing is one of them, but who's the other. Kopecky has proven nothing, and neither Sammy, Hudler or Helm are checkers or defensive players.

Maltby has the best chemistry with Draper. They need to stay together because of their experience at being able to shut down opposing lines.

Maltby and Kopecky should be playing on the fourth line with Draper. Those three are the only forwards in the top-12 who are not top-six caliber forwards.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Maltby and Kopecky should be playing on the fourth line with Draper. Those three are the only forwards in the top-12 who are not top-six caliber forwards.

The 3rd line is generally the shut-down, defensive line. If Draper and Maltby are on the 4th line, who's going to be the shut-down line? Certainly not Cleary, Hudler and Helm. Two of those guys aren't that good defensively. There's no way they should get more minutes than Draper, unless they're in the top 6, which they won't be, since our top 6 forwards are already set, barring injury.

[Opie 308]

The 3rd line is generally the shut-down, defensive line. If Draper and Maltby are on the 4th line, who's going to be the shut-down line? Certainly not Cleary, Hudler and Helm. Two of those guys aren't that good defensively. There's no way they should get more minutes than Draper, unless they're in the top 6, which they won't be, since our top 6 forwards are already set, barring injury.

You and I are in full agreement here, careful watch out for that snowball in hell(LOL), I see the third line as Draper Cleary and X, whomever you or I or Eva see in that X is going to differ.

But injuries aside it was pretty much Cleary Draper Drake all year, Sammy filled in nicely when Drake was out, which is what makes me think he is there this coming season. Actually Sammy put up his best numbers on that line. Granted he would be the 3rd best (Edit) defensive player on that line, but being called less of a defensive player than Draper is not exactly a slap in the face!

Edited August 14, 2008 by Opie

[eva unit zero 271]

The 3rd line is generally the shut-down, defensive line. If Draper and Maltby are on the 4th line, who's going to be the shut-down line? Certainly not Cleary, Hudler and Helm. Two of those guys aren't that good defensively. There's no way they should get more minutes than Draper, unless they're in the top 6, which they won't be, since our top 6 forwards are already set, barring injury.

Draper was not used in the primary shut-down role for most of the playoffs as the Wings typically matched first line against first line with great success. And my lineup, which would feature Maltby/Draper/Kopecky as the fourth line, would have a Franzen/Filppula/Samuelsson third line and a Cleary/Hudler/Hossa second line. Both of those lines are capable of playing matchup defense against any team's second line, or the Draper line can be matched up against it.

Helm will probably be spending most of the season in Grand Rapids as he is not out of options and the team has some roster space issues to work out; Derek Meech will likely start the season playing some forward with Kopecky injured.

I want to know what line you have Samuelsson playing on; it seems from the player names you are tossing out like you have him sitting in the press box...which is amusing given that you are sitting here defending the contributions guys like Maltby, McCarty and Downey made to the Cup run but want to see Samuelsson out of the lineup?

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Draper was not used in the primary shut-down role for most of the playoffs as the Wings typically matched first line against first line with great success. And my lineup, which would feature Maltby/Draper/Kopecky as the fourth line, would have a Franzen/Filppula/Samuelsson third line and a Cleary/Hudler/Hossa second line. Both of those lines are capable of playing matchup defense against any team's second line, or the Draper line can be matched up against it.

Helm will probably be spending most of the season in Grand Rapids as he is not out of options and the team has some roster space issues to work out; Derek Meech will likely start the season playing some forward with Kopecky injured.

I want to know what line you have Samuelsson playing on; it seems from the player names you are tossing out like you have him sitting in the press box...which is amusing given that you are sitting here defending the contributions guys like Maltby, McCarty and Downey made to the Cup run but want to see Samuelsson out of the lineup?

If Sammy is not in the top 6, then he's pretty much useless unless it's as an injury filler. So yes, I would have him sitting in the press box along with everyone's favorite cartoon character, Kopecky.

Guys like Maltby and McCarty are necessary as grinders and checkers. You can't have guys like Sammy and Hudler playing on a so-called checking line. They're either scorers or scratches. With that said, I'd actually dress Hudler, and put him on the same line as Helm, and make that our 4th line along with Downey. Those 2 played well with Maltby or Mac, so I don't see them doing any worse with Downey on their line.

So to sum up, my bottom six would consist of Draper, Maltby, Cleary, Hudler, Helm and Downey.

If yours looks different, so be it.

[Shutemdown 23]

Ok... so I Opie a small apology.

I didn't mean to go on a huge rant and start calling you out. That definately wasn't my intention. It's very easy for people to squabble on ANY forums, especially sports team forums. As fans, we all watch the same games, anticipate the same trades or outcomes, discuss games, and speculate (in the off-season).

However, with all of these different perspectives and strong opinions come disagreements and animosity, which no one likes.

All of this being said, I will admit I only knew a small portion of you two's relationship, and thought that it was just another forum fight. I was merely trying to calm things down and point out differing views.

Didn't mean to jump on anyone! And after I posted I saw your new post clarifying, so I'll just shut up now...

This thread has gone WAY off-topic...

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Ok... so I Opie a small apology.

I didn't mean to go on a huge rant and start calling you out. That definately wasn't my intention. It's very easy for people to squabble on ANY forums, especially sports team forums. As fans, we all watch the same games, anticipate the same trades or outcomes, discuss games, and speculate (in the off-season).

However, with all of these different perspectives and strong opinions come disagreements and animosity, which no one likes.

All of this being said, I will admit I only knew a small portion of you two's relationship, and thought that it was just another forum fight. I was merely trying to calm things down and point out differing views.

Didn't mean to jump on anyone! And after I posted I saw your new post clarifying, so I'll just shut up now...

This thread has gone WAY off-topic...

I wish you had used a different phrase there. We're strictly internet rivals, that's all.

[Opie 308]

Ok... so I Opie a small apology.

I didn't mean to go on a huge rant and start calling you out. That definately wasn't my intention. It's very easy for people to squabble on ANY forums, especially sports team forums. As fans, we all watch the same games, anticipate the same trades or outcomes, discuss games, and speculate (in the off-season).

However, with all of these different perspectives and strong opinions come disagreements and animosity, which no one likes.

All of this being said, I will admit I only knew a small portion of you two's relationship, and thought that it was just another forum fight. I was merely trying to calm things down and point out differing views.

Didn't mean to jump on anyone! And after I posted I saw your new post clarifying, so I'll just shut up now...

This thread has gone WAY off-topic...

First off and most important, NO HARM NO FOUL!!!

I have no problem with you jumping in and when I edited my post I was going to remove the "Was I talking to you" part as it seemed inappropriate, however deleting it would look like I was trying to cover up what I posted so I left it.

However with that there the tone of my post seemed like I was pissed at you I wasn't and if when posting to you I offend you just say so, and I will try to change my tone!

Again, no harm no foul!

Don't shut up, if I shut up every time I made a post I later deemed not necessary or dumb (not calling your post either) I would never post here, which I am sure some would enjoy!

[Opie 308]

I wish you had used a different phrase there. We're strictly internet rivals, that's all.

What? That is all I am to you, sheesh!

Kidding!!!! LOL!!

[Slave 31]

/walks in

/takes out glue

/fixes thread

I love Malts in a totally platonic way and he is a symbol of the redwings imo, but with saying that i feel his time is pretty much at an end, it would suck not seeing him on the ice, but i think we have to start bringing in some younger guys 1 or 2 at a time while we can so we don't screwed if/when drapes/lidstrom/mac/maltby all leave at the same time and we are stuck........well not really we would still have 3 awesome lines even if if we don't resign hossa

[Sepster 0]

I would've bet cold money that this was going to read;

Maltby deserves to be ..... traded

Having said that I would still prefer the following people (in no order) in the line up over Maltby due to skill or the fact they provide something Maltby doesn't (See #2)

1. Sammy

2. Downey (I know not on the roster yet)

3. Helm

4. Kopecky

5. Mac

Hell I would rather see what Leino, Abdelkader have on the fourth line with Hudler and Helm/Kopecky rather than Maltby.

Pretty much how I feel.

[Dabura 12,232]

If Sammy is not in the top 6, then he's pretty much useless unless it's as an injury filler.

Sammy played the best hockey he's ever played as a Wing when he was put on a line with Drake and Draper. That's because he's a checking-line forward -- one who has, unfairly, been called on to be a top-6 scorer.

I maintain that Cleary - Draper - Sammy is about as good a checking line as the Wings are going to be able to assemble while still keeping a thoroughly dominant top-6 and a solid energy line. That could see Maltby on the fourth -- although, in all honesty, I'd dress Helm over him on most nights if I had to choose between the two.

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

Maltby is on the roster full time until i say so