Holland Admits the Obvious

[swiss_fan 3]

the problem right now is not only defence logjam but ALSO cap space.

by freeing cap space you have the opportunity to keep Lilja, which we almost don t have now, like eva has stated, for trading guys like lebda, meech or quicey who have a smaller salary

[Doggy 130]

the problem right now is not only defence logjam but ALSO cap space.

by freeing cap space you have the opportunity to keep Lilja, which we almost don t have now, like eva has stated, for trading guys like lebda, meech or quicey who have a smaller salary

So, what you're saying is, it maintains the defensive logjam. That's pretty different to resolving it.

[daniel1 32]

Sources that are correct, nhlnumbers is not the most reliable source of info. For example, the signing of Aaron Downey is not listed nor do they have Marian Hossa's salary correct... STILL!!! If you want a clear picture of our cap situation visit the Salary Chart at the top of the page or nhlscap.com for other teams.

The numbers you're talking about are not correct.

Obviously you didn't read my post; or you did and just didn't understand it. Aaron Downey's salary (listed or not on NHLnumbers) will not be counting against the cap once the season starts due to the fact that he will be in Grand Rapids. Hence the nature of a TWO-WAY contract that Holland insisted that Downey sign which pays him at two different scales depending upon where he's playing is a clear indicator Holland expects him to be in GR unless there are injuries or unforeseen events which allow them to bring him up. Unless by some hockey God given miracle you believe Downey is going to outplay Kopecky or Helm he'll be in GR come opening night. The difference between what NHLnumbers.com and this site have listed for Hossa's salary is only 50k! That doesn't change anything in the figures that I quoted before. Moving Meech or Quincey before the season starts will still leave us around 500,000$ under the cap with Lilja, Lebda and Cheli on the roster. Ericcson's .9mil will also not count against the cap as he will be in GR to start the season as well. Bank on it.

[Andy Pred 48 337]

Lilja,Lebda, Meech or Quincey? Seems to be the general thought on the boards. Would Kenny move 2 or 3 of these guys? It seems certain that Cheli is gunna be signed and you

can bet your bottom $ that it won't be a 2 way deal, so we sure do have a log jam on the

blueline. Well the top 4 are set thats a no-brainer. Lids & Raffi, Stuy & Kronner. I will stick

my neck out and say Cheli is gunna be the 7th D this year.

Babs really wants Big Rig in, but hes the one with waiver options who is safe to go to GR.

So who could we afford to let go. Lebda and Meech are similar players but the Wings have Pyett in GR this year, who some say is like them but slighty bigger and with more upside. Pyett is at least 2 years away from the Wings roster thou.

In Lilja and Quincey the Wings again have similar stay at home guys but at different ends

of their careers. Lilja being 10yrs Quinceys senior and the slightly bigger bodied player. Is

Kyle going to be an upgrade on Anders, I don't think he is. Kolosov will be in GR this year

and will play the role that Lilja does for the Wings. He will be tested in GR this year but he

has the size and a mean streak to boot, that coud help him out and although being a long shot can look at Ericsson as an example of what can be done with the right attitude.

The other prospect in GR, Kindl, is not what the Wings will won't to part with. He is projected as a top 4 D and needs another year or 2 at least in GR to hone his skills. So we do have replacements in line if need be, but maybe only Ericsson can step up now. The Wings like the speed that Lebda or Meech bring to the 3rd pairing, but also the work

ethic of Lilja esp on the PK. Its a tuff call maybe camp will sort it out for the front office.

My call would be to trade Meech and Lilja. Give Quincey a shot with Lebda on the 3rd D, with Cheli stepping in now and then. Ericsson to GR only because of his waiver options. If Kyle can't handle it, package him off with one of the young forward prospects and bring up Ericsson as Lebda's partner. There some # crunching to be done but I think we would

be just under the cap.

[eva unit zero 271]

Waived? Come on. As much as you may hate Lilja, he was a starting D-man on the Stanley Cup Champions. There are lots of teams that would trade for him. You might only get prospects but no way do the Wings waive him.

Possible trade bait - Lilja, Lebda, Sammy, Hudler.

I don't hate Lilja. I think he's a decent stay-at-home third pair type guy.

The thing is, Lilja is the only player who can be removed from the current list of 24 players who the Wings have signed or intend to sign who singlehandedly clears up both the necessary cap space and the necessary roster space to allow them to fill out the 23-man roster.

I said traded or waived because there is a chance that by the time the Wings look to deal him, nobody has the available cap space, nobody is interested in Lilja, nobody wants to help the Wings, or some combination of the three.

[eva unit zero 271]

Lilja,Lebda, Meech or Quincey? Seems to be the general thought on the boards. Would Kenny move 2 or 3 of these guys? It seems certain that Cheli is gunna be signed and you

can bet your bottom $ that it won't be a 2 way deal, so we sure do have a log jam on the

blueline. Well the top 4 are set thats a no-brainer. Lids & Raffi, Stuy & Kronner. I will stick

my neck out and say Cheli is gunna be the 7th D this year.

Babs really wants Big Rig in, but hes the one with waiver options who is safe to go to GR.

So who could we afford to let go. Lebda and Meech are similar players but the Wings have Pyett in GR this year, who some say is like them but slighty bigger and with more upside. Pyett is at least 2 years away from the Wings roster thou.

In Lilja and Quincey the Wings again have similar stay at home guys but at different ends

of their careers. Lilja being 10yrs Quinceys senior and the slightly bigger bodied player. Is

Kyle going to be an upgrade on Anders, I don't think he is. Kolosov will be in GR this year

and will play the role that Lilja does for the Wings. He will be tested in GR this year but he

has the size and a mean streak to boot, that coud help him out and although being a long shot can look at Ericsson as an example of what can be done with the right attitude.

The other prospect in GR, Kindl, is not what the Wings will won't to part with. He is projected as a top 4 D and needs another year or 2 at least in GR to hone his skills. So we do have replacements in line if need be, but maybe only Ericsson can step up now. The Wings like the speed that Lebda or Meech bring to the 3rd pairing, but also the work

ethic of Lilja esp on the PK. Its a tuff call maybe camp will sort it out for the front office.

My call would be to trade Meech and Lilja. Give Quincey a shot with Lebda on the 3rd D, with Cheli stepping in now and then. Ericsson to GR only because of his waiver options. If Kyle can't handle it, package him off with one of the young forward prospects and bring up Ericsson as Lebda's partner. There some # crunching to be done but I think we would

be just under the cap.

The Wings have several young defensemen on the roster right now who cannot be sent to Grand Rapids without clearing waivers, and they are in a cap crunch. Lebda, Meech, and assumedly Quincey as well all make much less than Ericsson's 900k in addition to Ericsson being waiver-exempt this season. Ericsson will not be up full-time this year unless it's as a top-6 defenseman, and the Wings have moved at least two of the nine currently on the roster. This would have to include Lilja as otherwise Ericsson would be replacing a cheaper player when we wouldn't have the cap space to make the move. But I don't expect the Wings to bring Ericsson up this season; they'll use this season to find out what they have in Quincey, Meech, etc. and make the necessary moves to be able to bring Ericsson up NEXT season, when he won't be waiver exempt.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Shot blocking isn't as easy as some may think; there's this thing called timing to not only block the shot, but to avoid geting hit in the neck/head by the puck...It's this reason you don't see many players blocking shots, & those that do get recognized for it...If it were that easy, & if it was all that it took to make the team then chances are guys like Meech/Quincey would've been regulars in Detroit a year, or 2 ago.

As for moving Lilja - who would want him, & what would they have to give back to us in return? For what it's worth I'd rather see Lilja staying in Detroit; for what it's worth I've read on a handful of sites that he's 'popular in the dressing room'.

There's a few teams, like Toronto and Columbus, who still don't have an enforcer.

Besides, the man is a proven winner who has his name on the Cup.

[Opie 308]

There's a few teams, like Toronto and Columbus, who still don't have an enforcer.

Besides, the man is a proven winner who has his name on the Cup.

Why some people think trading some one from the Wing's is ONLY because they suck, to GMR's point, Lilja is a veteran D-man who played significant time on the best Defense in the league last season, yeah why would anyone want a defenseman who can play the PK and is effective in his own zone, WHY? What a waste of money.

For the record, I don't think Lilja will be traded due to the recent signing, if the Wings were going to let him go (I understand,they didn't have Stuart) they would have let him go out on the market and test the waters, it would be the fair thing to do to him and the Wings are all about being fair to the players.

I think Lebda may have more draw from other teams however, his salary does not help the Wings much if at all when traded. However if the Wings were to package Sammy and Lebda for a Drake-type player (style not age) and a pick they could probably get said forward for under a mil and then be free of Sammy's salary and cleared one space at the back end.

Before people who don't know think I am a Sammy basher, I have been one of the most vehement defenders of Sammy, however with the emergence of Mule, Flip, Huds, Cleary as viable secondary scoring options and the addition of Hossa, Sammy has become expendable.

Hell I bet if Holland throws in a Ham Sandwich with the deal he could get Lucic from Boston for the two. (Sorry the Ham sandwich part is my own joke about the B's front office "SKILLS"!

The trade of Sammy and Lebda would gain the wings about 1.8 mil in room to work with, the problem with my scenario (not the Lucic/ham sandwich one) is that the team is really only going to gain a couple of hundred K, the returning forward would probably be too expensive so they are better off probably doing the deal for a prospect forward and draft picks.

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

There's a few teams, like Toronto and Columbus, who still don't have an enforcer.

Besides, the man is a proven winner who has his name on the Cup.

Nashville - Chicago - Columbus -

[Dabura 12,232]

For the record, I don't think Lilja will be traded due to the recent signing, if the Wings were going to let him go (I understand,they didn't have Stuart) they would have let him go out on the market and test the waters, it would be the fair thing to do to him and the Wings are all about being fair to the players.

And moving Lebda and Sammy over Lilja would be more fair? Lebda's arguably just as good as Lilja, but plays for only 650. Sammy has overachieved -- in regards to his pay and his projected potential -- every step of the way.

As has been said, Lilja was signed primarily as an insurance policy. Now that Stuart has been locked up (and Hossa has signed, and Chelios will be back, and Quincey will probably be back, and there are cap issues, and there's a logjam on the back end) Lilja is a prime candidate for shipping. It's not tremendously fair, but Kenny's done much worse.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Why some people think trading some one from the Wing's is ONLY because they suck, to GMR's point, Lilja is a veteran D-man who played significant time on the best Defense in the league last season, yeah why would anyone want a defenseman who can play the PK and is effective in his own zone, WHY? What a waste of money.

For the record, I don't think Lilja will be traded due to the recent signing, if the Wings were going to let him go (I understand,they didn't have Stuart) they would have let him go out on the market and test the waters, it would be the fair thing to do to him and the Wings are all about being fair to the players.

I think Lebda may have more draw from other teams however, his salary does not help the Wings much if at all when traded. However if the Wings were to package Sammy and Lebda for a Drake-type player (style not age) and a pick they could probably get said forward for under a mil and then be free of Sammy's salary and cleared one space at the back end.

Before people who don't know think I am a Sammy basher, I have been one of the most vehement defenders of Sammy, however with the emergence of Mule, Flip, Huds, Cleary as viable secondary scoring options and the addition of Hossa, Sammy has become expendable.

Hell I bet if Holland throws in a Ham Sandwich with the deal he could get Lucic from Boston for the two. (Sorry the Ham sandwich part is my own joke about the B's front office "SKILLS"!

The trade of Sammy and Lebda would gain the wings about 1.8 mil in room to work with, the problem with my scenario (not the Lucic/ham sandwich one) is that the team is really only going to gain a couple of hundred K, the returning forward would probably be too expensive so they are better off probably doing the deal for a prospect forward and draft picks.

It's true that Lebda is actually more marketable for a trade, simply because of his age and his apparent offensive upside due to his speed (although this last part is a bit of a stretch). Also, because his salary is less than Lilja's, teams will be more willing to take him over Andreas.

Most posters here seem to be overlooking that, just because they hate Lilja and want the Wings to dump his salary ASAP.

Nashville - Chicago - Columbus -

Chicago has Patrick Sharp.

[Dabura 12,232]

Most posters here seem to be overlooking that, just because they hate Lilja and want the Wings to dump his salary ASAP.

And we're anti-enforcer. Don't forget that part.

[Opie 308]

And moving Lebda and Sammy over Lilja would be more fair? Lebda's arguably just as good as Lilja, but plays for only 650. Sammy has overachieved -- in regards to his pay and his projected potential -- every step of the way.

As has been said, Lilja was signed primarily as an insurance policy. Now that Stuart has been locked up (and Hossa has signed, and Chelios will be back, and Quincey will probably be back, and there are cap issues, and there's a logjam on the back end) Lilja is a prime candidate for shipping. It's not tremendously fair, but Kenny's done much worse.

Oh, I am just saying that is my thought, I think it is obvious that Lilja will be the odd man out as he was last playoffs when all were healthy. Cheli had lingering leg injuries and was not playing at a level babs thought wouldn't be improved by Lilja over him. But the difference is that Sammy and Lebda are and were under contract when the season ended, Holland approached Lilja offered him a deal and now he is saying sorry man, I guess I jumped the gun a little. Not saying he won't trade him, but that is worse than trading a guy you have had under contract for 2 years and is headed into the last year of said contract.

Again Lilja would appear to be the odd man out, he Kills the PK, the Wings have ample D-men to do that, the one thing he provides that none of the other D do is the fists. Lebda has a decent all around game, nothing that makes you say wow, other than his speed.

I agree it is a tough call, I just have a feeling Holland will keep Lilja around, but I am just some guy at a desk, so take that for what it is worth.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

And we're anti-enforcer. Don't forget that part.

Thanks for reminding me. That clearly explains why you want Lilja gone.

[Dabura 12,232]

Not saying he won't trade him, but that is worse than trading a guy you have had under contract for 2 years and is headed into the last year of said contract.

My point was two-fold: 1) It's not necessarily "worse" if we're talking in terms of fairness and 2) Kenny wouldn't lose any sleep over it. To expand on the former, I'll echo what I said before: Lebda is arguably just as good as Lilja and makes less than him, and Sammy is one of the best bargains in the league (i.e., a third-line checker who has been asked to bust his ass and overachieve on the secondary scoring unit while being paid in, relatively speaking, peanuts). So, what, you're going to tell those two to take a walk so Andreas Lilja can stay? I don't see how that's any more fair than moving Lilja for the good of the team -- and hell, possibly for the good of his career. If Lilja is as valuable as some people are saying he is, then it stands to reason that he deserves more ice time, which he would undoubtedly get on pretty much any other club in the NHL.

[OsGOD 3]

When did lil' ja become an enforcer..... I thought the pain train long since derailed?

Kronner was the most devestating of our "enforcers" all playoff long. Lil' Ja took a back seat and LOL'd at the other teams players in a heap on the floor.

[Skiing - Puck 0]

When did lil' ja become an enforcer..... I thought the pain train long since derailed?

NOTHING can derail the Pain Train.

[Guest Crymson]

There's a few teams, like Toronto and Columbus, who still don't have an enforcer.

Besides, the man is a proven winner who has his name on the Cup.

Seriously, though---Tampa would probably be interested, as would perhaps many others. Many teams are starved for decent D-men this season.

[Shutemdown 23]

If you want to keep Lilja because he was the team's greatest shot-blocker and top "enforcer" on defense, then you need to find a new argument, because these are joke reasons to keep him. Anyone can throw their body in front of a puck to block it, its just a matter of driving it into players' heads to do so. It requires no talent outside of basic coordination,and if thats the difference maker in whether Quincey Erikkson or Meech get in, I have little doubt that they will be willing to throw their body into every puck they see come training camp. In fact, blocking shots is becoming quite common, and as far as I know, our team isn't particularly high on the list of blocked shots, so this is something the rest of our team should probably start working on anyway. Lilja is tough, that I will give you. But he isn't game-decider tough. His decent hit on player A or his draw-to-win fight against player B won't win us games.

Granted, none of our other defensemen have anything special to their games either. Meech? Quincey? They have zero proven skill on the nhl level. However, considering there's so little that the Wings are risking in loosing Lilja's talent to gain something potentially bigger, its worth the possible reward that one of our many overaged prospects is actually better than a top 6 defensman. In the end, trading Lilja will make our team either better or worse, but we can't get worse by much, because he's a number 6 defenseman, and thats not asking a lot to begin with. However, if we get better, then we're improving our team in addition to cutting dead weight on the salary cap. But lets get serious. We're talking about top six defensmen. Whatever Kenny ends up doing, I'm not going to fret about. Our team will still be the greatest defensive team in the league with any of Lilja, Lebda, Quncey, Meech, Erikson, or Chelios in the last two spots.

If there's any dead-weight on the Red Wings bench, it would be Cheli. Not only is he contending for a spot on D while we have a huge log-jam, he's now going to be taking a spot of someone else who could be getting NHL ice-time , whilst playing with diminished skills.

Honestly, I might catch some heat for it, but in this case, I think the Wings were too loyal in regards to Chelios. This isn't the only problem, but it's now causing the team to trade away someone else in order to fit space on D. Lilja OR Lebda shouldn't be the one to go.

I don't understand alot of you saying that Lilja had a limited role on this team. I think he's WORTH the salary he's getting, and I believe he should remain on the team and remain in the line-up. If we're going to get into actual stats and performance, ability and overall play, I wouldn't say the problem lies in Lilja, or that he should be traded.

Lilja and Lebda made a strong defensive pairing that should be kept together. for about 2mil, the Wings have their 3rd defensive pairing locked up, and a minimal hit to the salary cap.

Chelios is dead weight. Put him in a suit.

[Doggy 130]

Lilja isn't an enforcer. He'd hafta be the pussiest in the league if he was.

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

Lilja isn't an enforcer. He'd hafta be the pussiest in the league if he was.

Tell that to Neil,Begin,Phanuef,Sharp.

They'd tell you a whole different story

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Tell that to Neil,Begin,Phanuef,Sharp.

They'd tell you a whole different story

How dare you?

[MsRedWingFan 0]

interesting quotes from Holland ...

Quote: Holland tells the Windsor Star's Dave Waddell that he's more than willing to let the Wings' cap issues sort themselves out during training camp and the exhibition season:

July 30, Windsor Star: "We have some options (Darren) Helm, (Jimmy) Howard, (Jonathan) Ericsson and anybody on a two-contract because they can go down," Holland said. "We can also trade. We have some young players, if they don't fit, we'd have no problem moving them. We'll let the 21 days of training camp sort that out."

.....

"Chris and I had talk and he knew what we could pay him would depend on if we were able to do anything major this summer," Holland said. "Getting Marian Hossa unexpectedly and signing Filppula long term means there's going to be less. He understood that. He also understands his role. If Mike Babcock feels the best chance of winning on nightly basis is with one of the kids over Chelly, that's what he's going to do."

.....

"We're deeper than at any point I can recall," Holland said. "We feel we have 28 players capable of playing in the NHL. Plus, we have some more young kids like Jakub Kindl, who we feel is a year away, and Justin Abdelkader, who are really pushing from below. It's a nice problem to have. We're going to have some real tough decisions."

That's why the players will be given every opportunity to determine their own pecking order.

http://blog.mlive.com/snapshots/2008/07/wa..._wings_hav.html

Edited August 25, 2008 by MsRedWingFan

[MsRedWingFan 0]

The Macomb Daily's Bruce MacLeod weighs in as well:

July 30, RedWingsCorner: With Filppula signed, the Red Wings have just two more players left to fit on their payroll. First comes defenseman Chris Chelios, then a forward like Darren McCarty who will take a two-way contract.

Including Darren Helm (and he might play in Grand Rapids instead), the Red Wings have 13 forwards, seven defensemen and two goalies under contract, meaning they just have to squeeze Chelios in under the cap ($56.7 million).

The Red Wings have approximately $478,668 of room under the cap for Chelios with a 23-man roster that includes Helm, who makes $598,000. The league minimum salary is $475,000.

Because the Wings are so close to the salary cap, defenseman Jonathan Ericsson is likely to be in Grand Rapids. He can clear waivers and his $900,000 cap hit is much larger than Derek Meech's $483,333.

Holland has suggested that the Wings will carry 13 forwards, 8 defencemen, and 2 goaltenders, so it's entirely possible that Helm will end up in Grand Rapids--if Ville Leino and McCarty make the team, anyway--and Brett Lebda, Chelios, Andreas LIlja, Derek Meech, and Kyle Quincey equal five defencemen fighting for four spots on the Wings' blueline.

http://redwingscorner.blogspot.com/2008/07...-year-deal.html

[Doggy 130]

Obviously you didn't read my post; or you did and just didn't understand it. Aaron Downey's salary (listed or not on NHLnumbers) will not be counting against the cap once the season starts due to the fact that he will be in Grand Rapids. Hence the nature of a TWO-WAY contract that Holland insisted that Downey sign which pays him at two different scales depending upon where he's playing is a clear indicator Holland expects him to be in GR unless there are injuries or unforeseen events which allow them to bring him up. Unless by some hockey God given miracle you believe Downey is going to outplay Kopecky or Helm he'll be in GR come opening night. The difference between what NHLnumbers.com and this site have listed for Hossa's salary is only 50k! That doesn't change anything in the figures that I quoted before. Moving Meech or Quincey before the season starts will still leave us around 500,000$ under the cap with Lilja, Lebda and Cheli on the roster. Ericcson's .9mil will also not count against the cap as he will be in GR to start the season as well. Bank on it.

Look dude. You asked a question and I answered it. I did no more than that. Why continue to argue with no-one about nothing?