Lidstrom

[drw138 6]

AO is awsome but how is he soooo much better than hank or pav offensively?

if one of those two played in an all out, run and gun eastern s***ty team where they were the only guy on the bench to turn to and they didn't have to think about defense they might score 60+??? or at least be 100+pts.

hell pav had 97 or something and spends half his energy on defense.

a guy like AO will shine offensively because thats his only role.

with that said LIDSTROM is the BEST hands down right now.

but if i'm building a team you'd be crazy to pick lidstrom over AO, hank, pav, crosby, toews,

stamkos?, etc, etc

hell you might get a 18+ seasons of hall of fame hockey out of those guys

[egroen 384]

AO is awsome but how is he soooo much better than hank or pav offensively?

It's the 60+ goals... that is a rare bird. Makes him more valuable than Crosby, IMO... but not Lidstrom, not yet.

[thedisappearer 291]

I disagree. Having Luongo on a team built like Detroit would be a waste of capspace. In terms of goalies out there right now, I would rate Osgood in the middle of the pack; solid, yet nothing special, and that skill is adequate to win a cup. I would start with a solid defensman personally

It's your first pick- you don't have a team yet. You go with the young goalie.

And then trade your 2, 3, 4, and 5 for a shot at Nicky.

[Doc Holiday 0]

Look, i'm just trying to paint a picture for you of how I came to my pick of AO. I value offense more so far as winning consistently than I do defense.

IMO, you can take a guy like Mikael Samuellson or Jiri Hudler and make him responsible defensively in all 3 zones a hell of alot easier than you can teach them to become a 50 goal scorer.

IMO, defense and defensive systems are more teachable than simply waving a wand and making guys into elite level scorers. You can teach a guy to sacrifice his body to block shots, not to cherry pick offensively, to use his stick better in the passing lanes, not to lose track of his man, etc...

That's a heck of alot easier than looking at a guy and saying "ok, go be like Ovechkin". Ovechkin's don't grow on trees. You need a goal to win a game, you get the best offensive player in the game to get it for you. That's AO, hence he's my pick.

Nobody has to like it or agree with it.

Both ends of the ice take talent. That is why Lidstrom is so far ahead of his peers. Considering there are many more goal scorers than defensemen that makes Lidstrom's talent all the more valuable. Ovenchkin may not win the MVP for the regular season. Lidstrom is almost guaranteed to win it with the amount of freaking talent that oozes from his forehead alone. He can stop an Ovenchkin and pass to an AHL player and cause a goal. Ovenchkin oozes offensive talent, but he isn't the only one with great ability and when it comes to 1v1, Ovenchkin would not have an easy time against Lidstrom. Give Ovie a few years when he is in his prime and he may have enough skills to dangle any defenseman in the league, but Lidstrom has too much for him in my humble opinion.

Pardon me if I am rambling, I am very tired and for some reason would rather talk hockey than rest.

[BeeRYCE 2]

Am I REALLY the only one who thinks Crosby is better than Ovechkin anymore? Ovechkin vs Lidstrom? It should actually be Crosby vs Lidstrom. Ovechkin has a monster season, Crosby gets injured, now Crosby is a nobody. Under a year ago today Crosby was in a league of his own... I really don't get this.

Crosby - Proven playoff performer, highest career point per game average among active player in the NHL right now, and better defensively than Ovechkin.

Edited September 6, 2008 by BeeRYCE

[Doc Holiday 0]

Am I REALLY the only one who thinks Crosby is better than Ovechkin anymore? Ovechkin vs Lidstrom? It should actually be Crosby vs Lidstrom. Ovechkin has a monster season, Crosby gets injured, now Crosby is a nobody. Under a year ago today Crosby was in a league of his own... I really don't get this.

Crosby - Proven playoff performer, highest career point per game average among active player in the NHL right now, and better defensively than Ovechkin.

Ovenchkin is the scorer, plus Crosby was unable to prove himself last year so that has only given Ovenchkin more of a chance to step up his game. Plus I didn't see an unbelievable game out of Crosby during the finals.

[Dabura 12,232]

I value offense more so far as winning consistently than I do defense.

Your values are wack.

[Echolalia 2,961]

It's your first pick- you don't have a team yet. You go with the young goalie.

And then trade your 2, 3, 4, and 5 for a shot at Nicky.

See that makes no sense to me. I understand going for a goalie in maybe pick 3, or 4 or so, but definitely not top pick, and possibly not even 2nd round. Forwards and defensmen have greater opportunities to influence the game as they get the puck much more, and are directly involved with many plays. Not to undermine goalies, but they're a bail-out card on the occasion that the other team is outplaying yours. If you have flawless defense, its possible your goalie will be facing less than 20 shots a game, and few of those will be quality scoring opportunities. I understand the logic of wanting a strong goalie and all that, but a strong defensmen not only will prevent the other team from scoring, but will also directly contribute to your team scoring, whether that be by assists or goals or what have you. Look at Vancouver. They have the best goalie in the league, but are hardly a playoff contending team, due to numerous offensive and defensive weaknesses. Detroit is on the other end of the spectrum. Our defense is impeccable, our goalie is average imo, at the very least not a top 5 goalie in the league, and we won the cup last year.

If I were making a team today and had 1st pick out of everyone in the league, it would be a tossup between Crosby Ovechkin and Zetterberg.

I'd pick Crosby because of his massive playmaking talent and ability to read the ice, as well as his youth (he'll only get better). I wouldn't pick him because he seems like a one way player with little defensive awareness, and a hot head.

Ovechkin is much the same as Crosby, instead replace playmaking talent with pure goalscoring talent. He's also average defensively.

Zetterberg I like because he brings offensive talent (though not to the caliber that Crosby and Ovechkin do, but still easily offensive franchise numbers), as well as an impeccable responsibility defensively. His weakness would be the fact that he's at or near his prime right now, so there isn't much futuristic upside to him, and his back problems make him a possible injury liability.

I didn't pick any defensmen because right now I don't think there are any stellar defensmen on the market that are still relatively young (and especially not the degree that Lidstrom is). That and the immense amount of talent these three possess is something you cannot pass up. If Lids and/or Konstantinov were being drafted today I would jump on either of them, though.

[BeeRYCE 2]

Ovenchkin is the scorer, plus Crosby was unable to prove himself last year so that has only given Ovenchkin more of a chance to step up his game. Plus I didn't see an unbelievable game out of Crosby during the finals.

You don't see players have unbelievable games against Detroit... He did play good though.

[eva unit zero 271]

You don't see players have unbelievable games against Detroit.

Which is one reason why Lidstrom is #1 on most lists being posted.

[thedisappearer 291]

See that makes no sense to me. I understand going for a goalie in maybe pick 3, or 4 or so, but definitely not top pick, and possibly not even 2nd round. Forwards and defensmen have greater opportunities to influence the game as they get the puck much more, and are directly involved with many plays. Not to undermine goalies, but they're a bail-out card on the occasion that the other team is outplaying yours. If you have flawless defense, its possible your goalie will be facing less than 20 shots a game, and few of those will be quality scoring opportunities. I understand the logic of wanting a strong goalie and all that, but a strong defensmen not only will prevent the other team from scoring, but will also directly contribute to your team scoring, whether that be by assists or goals or what have you. Look at Vancouver. They have the best goalie in the league, but are hardly a playoff contending team, due to numerous offensive and defensive weaknesses. Detroit is on the other end of the spectrum. Our defense is impeccable, our goalie is average imo, at the very least not a top 5 goalie in the league, and we won the cup last year.

If I were making a team today and had 1st pick out of everyone in the league, it would be a tossup between Crosby Ovechkin and Zetterberg.

I'd pick Crosby because of his massive playmaking talent and ability to read the ice, as well as his youth (he'll only get better). I wouldn't pick him because he seems like a one way player with little defensive awareness, and a hot head.

Ovechkin is much the same as Crosby, instead replace playmaking talent with pure goalscoring talent. He's also average defensively.

Zetterberg I like because he brings offensive talent (though not to the caliber that Crosby and Ovechkin do, but still easily offensive franchise numbers), as well as an impeccable responsibility defensively. His weakness would be the fact that he's at or near his prime right now, so there isn't much futuristic upside to him, and his back problems make him a possible injury liability.

I didn't pick any defensmen because right now I don't think there are any stellar defensmen on the market that are still relatively young (and especially not the degree that Lidstrom is). That and the immense amount of talent these three possess is something you cannot pass up. If Lids and/or Konstantinov were being drafted today I would jump on either of them, though.

When was the last time the Wings got bounced in the first round because a forward stole the series?

[Echolalia 2,961]

When was the last time the Wings got bounced in the first round because a forward stole the series?

The only times I can recall the Wings "getting bounced" is when their team is clearly outplayed by the opposing team.

[Doc Holiday 0]

The only times I can recall the Wings "getting bounced" is when their team is clearly outplayed by the opposing team.

I believe the term "4 goals in the third period" disagrees with you.

You don't see players have unbelievable games against Detroit... He did play good though.

Indeed, but like I said, there are a few reasons people give the nod to Ovie. Plus he is more flashy than Crosby is.

Edited September 7, 2008 by Doc Holiday

[Doc Holiday 0]

double

Edited September 7, 2008 by Doc Holiday

[egroen 384]

The only times I can recall the Wings "getting bounced" is when their team is clearly outplayed by the opposing team goalie.

Fixed.

[BeeRYCE 2]

When was the last time the Wings got bounced in the first round because a forward stole the series?

Yeah, but when was the last time a Wing forward stole a series? Oh, that's right... Franzen vs Colorado and Zetterberg vs Pittsburgh. In the new NHL, forward is the prime position. In a top 20 ranking of every player in the NHL, goalies, forwards and defense... Only Lidstrom would be on the list. Pronger, Niedermayer, and Phaneuf would have outside shots at the very least.

[norrisnick 1]

Yeah, but when was the last time a Wing forward stole a series? Oh, that's right... Franzen vs Colorado and Zetterberg vs Pittsburgh. In the new NHL, forward is the prime position. In a top 20 ranking of every player in the NHL, goalies, forwards and defense... Only Lidstrom would be on the list. Pronger, Niedermayer, and Phaneuf would have outside shots at the very least.

As crazy as it sounds we'd have smoked the Avs even without Franzen's 9 goals. And Z did not single-handedly steal the finals. He was the best of our forwards but that was total team effort from top to bottom.

Forwards obviously get the glory, but they aren't the deciding factors more than any other position.

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

Im going to get heat from this but if I was a coach and i just wanted one player to impact my team, and assuming they were all in their prime........ Pronger, Chara, or Phanuef without a doubt.

Lidstrom may be better, but I gurantee you every single forward would rather go up agaisnt lidstrom and just get the puck poke checked away, or run out of room due to flawless postitioning than to get absoloutly wrecked.

Power Defensemen can dominate games like no other player can.

[miller76 463]

It's hard to pick a best player in the league. Most here seem to feel that Lidstrom is basically the best D-man, and a lot of posts have stated AO is the best forward if not the ones stating it's Crosby. But aren't we comparing apples and oranges here? All I can say is, thank god it's a team sport. And Detroit has the best team!

Listen to the players interviews. I have never heard Lidstrom float his boat, and say"yep, they couldn't have done it without me tonight. Good thing I brought my 'A' game." It's always the team played good, our defensive held their own" and so on.

[BeeRYCE 2]

Listen to the players interviews. I have never heard Lidstrom float his boat, and say"yep, they couldn't have done it without me tonight. Good thing I brought my 'A' game." It's always the team played good, our defensive held their own" and so on.

In all fairness, no (great) hockey player floats their own boat, except maybe Jagr, but screw him. Ovechkin only does it as a joke. Avery does it, but he's not great. Gotta love the modest sport of hockey.

[miller76 463]

Im going to get heat from this but if I was a coach and i just wanted one player to impact my team, and assuming they were all in their prime........ Pronger, Chara, or Phanuef without a doubt.

Lidstrom may be better, but I gurantee you every single forward would rather go up agaisnt lidstrom and just get the puck poke checked away, or run out of room due to flawless postitioning than to get absoloutly wrecked.

Power Defensemen can dominate games like no other player can.

no heat, just my own 2 cents. I understand your thinking in the area, but I am not so sure players do not fear Lidstrom. I know Pronger, Chara, and Phanuef play physical. And they can hurt you! But I think if it was me as a professional, I would rather take a hit from one of these guys and live to see it, then looking like a complete fool. As the best D man just played you! Just my opinion though.

[Dabura 12,232]

Lidstrom may be better, but I gurantee you every single forward would rather go up agaisnt lidstrom and just get the puck poke checked away, or run out of room due to flawless postitioning than to get absoloutly wrecked.

Forwards get their money and glory from racking up points. They're more likely to get points against Chara and Phaneuf and Pronger than they are Lidstrom. So, if given the options of seeing one of the aforementioned three -- who will hit, but will have lapses and leave holes open -- or Nick Lidstrom -- who can go an entire series without making a single mistake -- in a best of seven series, most forwards would pick the former, guaranteed. Doesn't matter who you are -- if you don't play at 150%, Nick will shut you down. That's a painful thought -- more so than any Phanuef hit.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Your values are wack.

That's in depth Dab. Thanks for that. By the way, the view is the same for me on this side of the fence. So now what? Want to trade senseless barbs? Or do you want to contribute something else?

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Which is one reason why Lidstrom is #1 on most lists being posted.

"most lists being posted"...........on a Red Wings forum by Red Wings fans

Fixed that for you Eva.

He sure ain't #1 on any of the published lists. So now what?

[Dabura 12,232]

Senseless barbs? No, I'll cut right to the chase: you're a hack job.

Good hockey rests on the foundation of good defense. It's a cliche now, but: offense wins games, defense wins championships. Anyone who knows hockey knows this and therefore knows the true value of a guy like Nick Lidstrom -- just ask the Pens.

It's no coincidence that guys like Stevie Y and Feds became infinitely more lauded players when they committed themselves to more defense-oriented play.

Edited September 8, 2008 by Dabura