When considering the final forward spots....

[Opie 308]

Well I'm just sayin' when was the last time Maltby scored? When was the last time maltby put up 15 goals or 40 points?

When was the last time Maltby was not the lowest +/- on the team of regular players?

Yet for some reason it is Sammy who gets s*** on, I'm just sayin'!

[Doggy 130]

Well I'm just sayin' when was the last time Maltby scored? When was the last time maltby put up 15 goals or 40 points?

When was the last time Maltby was not the lowest +/- on the team of regular players?

Yet for some reason it is Sammy who gets s*** on, I'm just sayin'!

When was the last time someone said Maltby steps it up in the playoffs?

Again guys, I'm not bashing Sammy. No need to be a ****** about it. I just stated a fact. He started off poorly and people wanted to kill him for it. Then they forgot because he scored a few in the Finals. He's not a bad player though and I'm happy with him at $1.2m.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

There's a difference between decent and phenomenal. Phenomenal would be someone like Jere Lehtinen or Guy Carbonneau.

Since you used that word, maybe you should explain how he's "phenomenal" as opposed to just average or even good defensively.

Would "very good" have been better? Perhaps "well above average"? How about "quite solid"? You're just splitting hairs now GMR.

He's coming off a +21 year, he rarely makes defensive mistakes in the offensive zone, let alone extremely rarely in his defensive zone, and plays the second D-pairing PP unit for an obvious reason. Compared to how people like to trash Sammy since its the trendy thing to do on this site, it take verbage like phenomenal defensively just to get a point across. The fact of the matter is Sammy is an all-around bargain for what he's getting paid.

[Opie 308]

When was the last time someone said Maltby steps it up in the playoffs?

Again guys, I'm not bashing Sammy. No need to be a ****** about it. I just stated a fact. He started off poorly and people wanted to kill him for it. Then they forgot because he scored a few in the Finals. He's not a bad player though and I'm happy with him at $1.2m.

Yes but what you conveniently left out of your 3 rounds without scoring is that he went three rounds without scoring a goal, it is not like he didn't have assists, so while yes he was not scoring goals in those three rounds he was actually producing points and helping the team. So maybe those who were bashing him were off base? No, not on here not people unmercifully bashing Sammy for no reason, no.

I didn't say you were bashing him, what I said was that there are others(Maltby to be specific) on the team that perform worse statistically and visually (I guess that covers the I can see them skate, I watch them play). Maybe using your "I'm just sayin'" to prove a point rubbed you the wrong way, but what did I do that was D-bag. You were simply saying he didn't score in the first three rounds (which you probably should have been more specific about as he did have assists), I was simply saying when was the last time Maltby did ANYTHING, yet he is not brought up in every thread no matter the relevance and trashed. Posters (maybe not you) have found it trendy to bash the guy, yet leave others alone.

Your point that I quoted was, that he wasn't scoring in the first three rounds, when actually compared to most of the team he was performing exceptionally well the entire post season.

Sammy's forecheck led directly to 2 Mule goals in Col only one did he get an assist on , He had an assist from the point on the PP for Mule in Col.

But wait a second, wasn't that in one of the first 3 rounds, nah couldn't have been he didn't do s*** for the first three rounds as evident by the bashing he took on LetsGoWings!

[DSM 114]

I have just been thinkin about those final roster spots and I'm trying to decide who's job is safe. Will Holland and Babcock stick with loyalty or will they choose the best players to make the squad?

Maltby- Has really lost a step in the past few years, PK skills have decreased and there isn't as much of a need for him anymore. We could really drop him and replace him with a much cheaper and younger player. However, he does have vetran leadership and he has won 4 cups with this team, but is that enough to keep him around?

Kopecky- The guy is extremely injury prone and from what I've seen i haven't been that impressed. He shows signs of offensive brilliance, but not very often. I like his size, but that's about it.

McCarty-Hometown favorite, but IMO there's no way he makes this squad. Took too many dumb penalties because he's too slow, and is no longer an elite fighter. His comeback story was great, but our deep is too deep and talented to keep him around. Will his history with the organization get him a roster spot?

Sammy-Shoots way too much and often at the goalies boobies. However, he is cheap but still it's a roster spot. He makes boneheads plays defensively as well. Does he have a guranteed roster spot?

Leino- I must say he is the player I am most intrigued about. Aside from seeing blurry YouTube videos, I've never seen him play, and I can't see the Red Wings going out and signing him if they didn't want him on the team. IMO by the time the halfway point for the season rolls around, Leino will be on second line. Thats just a prediction, but from what I have read, he seems greaet.

Helm-Showed a lot of promise in the playoffs, and has some wheels. But would he be better off playing another year in GR? I don't think so, but what do Babs and Holland think?

Downey- Great team player, great enforcer, terrible skater, below average hockey player. Does he make this squad based on his fighting skilsl alone?

My prediction

4th line.

Leino Draper Helm

Maltby

Maltby, Kopecky and Samuelsson aren't going anywhere. When you consider this final spot, it's the #13 spot. Last year, that spot was shared by Matt Ellis and Aaron Downey. Basically, the top 12 spots are filled. I now consider it a battle between Leino, Helm, Downey and McCarty. Here's my predictions for the 4:

Helm - Probably a 95% chance he goes back to GR. He will play 15-20 minutes a night, every night there rather than a handful of minutes and possibly being a healthy scratch at times with the big club. Besides, more development never hurts.

Leino - I don't know much about this guy, but I think he's gonna be an odd man out.

McCarty - Egh, love the guy but I thought he looked slow last year in the playoffs.

Downey - Probably has the biggest chance of getting the spot. He was an excellent fit during the season last year and plays a disciplined game. I think the spot might be his to lose. And yea I know he didn't play in the playoffs, but look at our depth.. and theres also this thing called the "trade-deadline."

[Mors 201]

Sammy always sticks up for himself and fights his own battles. I hardly ever see him yapping at others the way Maltby does so I don't understand that comment. Babs tells Sammy to shoot every chance he gets, so to see him do what the coach asks of him even though he doesn't have a great shot, isn't shocking, and the 1.2 million dollar deal is a steal for a defensively gifted, 40 point producer. The fact that you wanna replace Sammy with a european rookie who has never played in the NHL is beyond me.

Hahahahah....hold on, let me catch my breath....hahahahha.

Are you actually implying that Mr. "I wait until the ref separates the group and the whistle blows, then I start running my mouth" Samuelsson fights his own battles? COME ON. This guy is a complete joke when it comes to "sticking up" for himself. Even Mickey has commented on it during the games last season. Whistle blows...Samuelsson starts running his mouth. I realize the hip thing on the forums these days is to defend him, but come on, at least call it like it is. His shot is ridiculously inconsistent, he does put up points, he's not a bad player for the price...but that's as far as I'll go. He's still the most frustrating player on the team to watch.

[Heaton 1]

Hahahahah....hold on, let me catch my breath....hahahahha.

Are you actually implying that Mr. "I wait until the ref separates the group and the whistle blows, then I start running my mouth" Samuelsson fights his own battles? COME ON. This guy is a complete joke when it comes to "sticking up" for himself. Even Mickey has commented on it during the games last season. Whistle blows...Samuelsson starts running his mouth. I realize the hip thing on the forums these days is to defend him, but come on, at least call it like it is. His shot is ridiculously inconsistent, he does put up points, he's not a bad player for the price...but that's as far as I'll go. He's still the most frustrating player on the team to watch.

I'll guarantee you the player who ends up taking his place when he leaves will be the same bane of peoples existence. The problem really isn't Samuelsson, it isn't even the way he's used on the ice it's what people expect from him is the problem. Sure he plays 14-16mins a game, sure he's on the point when he really doesn't generate much but the fact of the matter is he's one of the safest players (breaking Cleary's jaw aside) that you can put out there. He doesn't turn the puck over, he busts his ass on defense and he shoots a ton which is what every player should be doing. He's not a great player, he's not even a very good player he just is exactly the kind of player that this team and other teams need to fill spots for virtually no cap hit.

[Opie 308]

Hahahahah....hold on, let me catch my breath....hahahahha.

Are you actually implying that Mr. "I wait until the ref separates the group and the whistle blows, then I start running my mouth" Samuelsson fights his own battles? COME ON. This guy is a complete joke when it comes to "sticking up" for himself. Even Mickey has commented on it during the games last season. Whistle blows...Samuelsson starts running his mouth. I realize the hip thing on the forums these days is to defend him, but come on, at least call it like it is. His shot is ridiculously inconsistent, he does put up points, he's not a bad player for the price...but that's as far as I'll go. He's still the most frustrating player on the team to watch.

Maltby?

Kopecky?

Chelios?

Lebda?

What about these guys is so much better than Sammy?

BTW, the hip thing on these boards is still trashing Sammy, there are about 10 posters defending him.

The reason why a few people defend him now, is they realize he is a very good deal at 1.2 mil, he scores 40 points a season, has been no worse than 6th for forwards in points scored the 3 years he has been a wing. Not too shabby for a guy brought in to be a defensive forward.

He plays the PP, he can play any of the 4 lines, he forechecks (as evident by the two Mule goals he helped create in the Av's series), what do you want from the guy, some one who is going to be a power forward, guess what he is as much a power forward as Jagr is, unfortunately I think some of the posters on here expect him to have Jagr's offensive upside.

He is a solid all around player, he can score, he can set up, he can play in his own zone, he forechecks.

I think the problem lies more in people's expectations of him rather than anything he does.

What was meant by sticks up for himself is when was the last time a fighter had to fight Sammy's battle for him?

However Maltby when at his pest best had D-mac throwing the punches while Malts ran away still running his mouth.

Just so that you know Maltby makes roughly 300k less than Sammy and provides ZILCH that Sammy can't do.

[Shaman 713]

I hate to continue defending sammy, but, ill remend all my earlier posts about him with this addition "I would like to trade Sammy to free up cap space and allow younger players more consistant NHL Ice time, but, I also understand that Sammy at this point gives us a lot of bang for the buck for a 3rd line winger and a decent fill in if a second liner gets hurt or put on the first line due to injury(note I said decent not great)...."

[Opie 308]

I actually believe Sammy will be a salary cap casualty especially if a guy like Leino or Abdelkader shows the goods.

Last season I thought Sammy was a necessity to this team, he was needed to fill out the top 6. But with the development of Mule, Flip, Hudler, Cleary and the addition of Hossa the void Sammy filled is gone. The only factor that holds that up is whether or not the Wings will be satisfied with what is left for the PP2 point.

If Babs thinks Stuart can hold down the second pp2 point than I see Sammy and Lilja as packaged for cap space. While I know it only takes one of them to clear the space Holland usually (pre-Hossa) likes to operate around 1 mil under cap, call it room for growth. Not sure he needs that room.

Either way my point was that this year Sammy is far more expendable than he was last season.

[Konnan511 1,736]

I for one can't stand Sammy. Not one bit. He has a nice shot that is highly inaccurate. Sure he throws the occasional facewash to any guy roughing up his teammates, sure he doesn't give up the defensive gaf, and sure he looks like Farmer Fred. But when it comes down to it, for what he is paid, he produces at our above his salary on the ice. I will never be a Sammy fan, but I will expect him to stay on the team until he becomes unproductive..cough..Maltby...cough...Draper (aside from his sick faceoff %)

[Guest Crymson]

Sammy-Shoots way too much and often at the goalies boobies. However, he is cheap but still it's a roster spot. He makes boneheads plays defensively as well. Does he have a guranteed roster spot?

Please find me three examples of Sammy's "boneheads defensive plays." I often see people on here say that he's defensively terrible, but they never quite cite actual examples of such.

The guy costs us $1.2m and he scores. He shoots so much because Babcock tells him to. You'll also notice that he has been very valuable in the playoffs for the last two seasons---ESPECIALLY in the finals in this last playoff year, when he basically won us game one (on two unassisted goals, remember, so you can't attribute it to his linemates in any fashion either) and set up Filppula's goal in game six.

Yeesh.

[Guest Crymson]

That Sammy! Some nerve!

"Osammy Bin Laden"!

There aren't. The guy makes peanuts relative to the kind of play and production Babs has squeezed out of him. He's a third-line checker who's been called upon to serve as a top-6 scorer, and he's risen to the occasion. The stats are there. Now he's being asked to play a role he's much more comfortable with, as he showed this past postseason when he played the best hockey of his Wings career on a line with Drake and Draper.

It's amazing how much pure B.S. people can pull out of their asses when talking about this guy. It boggles the mind.

For the record, Sammy played with Franzen and Filppula during most of the postseason. Cleary played with Drake and Draper.

We should give him a shot to break an NHL roster, rather than settling for a 37 year old walking relic of a ******.

I think you're referring to Samuelsson's jersey number, not his age.

Didn't he almost go three rounds without scoring?

Not unless he scored 13 points in the remainder, no.

Yes but what you conveniently left out of your 3 rounds without scoring is that he went three rounds without scoring a goal, it is not like he didn't have assists, so while yes he was not scoring goals in those three rounds he was actually producing points and helping the team. So maybe those who were bashing him were off base? No, not on here not people unmercifully bashing Sammy for no reason, no.

I didn't say you were bashing him, what I said was that there are others(Maltby to be specific) on the team that perform worse statistically and visually (I guess that covers the I can see them skate, I watch them play). Maybe using your "I'm just sayin'" to prove a point rubbed you the wrong way, but what did I do that was D-bag. You were simply saying he didn't score in the first three rounds (which you probably should have been more specific about as he did have assists), I was simply saying when was the last time Maltby did ANYTHING, yet he is not brought up in every thread no matter the relevance and trashed. Posters (maybe not you) have found it trendy to bash the guy, yet leave others alone.

Your point that I quoted was, that he wasn't scoring in the first three rounds, when actually compared to most of the team he was performing exceptionally well the entire post season.

Sammy's forecheck led directly to 2 Mule goals in Col only one did he get an assist on , He had an assist from the point on the PP for Mule in Col.

But wait a second, wasn't that in one of the first 3 rounds, nah couldn't have been he didn't do s*** for the first three rounds as evident by the bashing he took on LetsGoWings!

Samuelsson scored twice in game four against the Avalanche; he scored our first goal and our last goal. I was there.

Edited September 23, 2008 by Crymson

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

I'll guarantee you the player who ends up taking his place when he leaves will be the same bane of peoples existence. The problem really isn't Samuelsson, it isn't even the way he's used on the ice it's what people expect from him is the problem. Sure he plays 14-16mins a game, sure he's on the point when he really doesn't generate much but the fact of the matter is he's one of the safest players (breaking Cleary's jaw aside) that you can put out there. He doesn't turn the puck over, he busts his ass on defense and he shoots a ton which is what every player should be doing. He's not a great player, he's not even a very good player he just is exactly the kind of player that this team and other teams need to fill spots for virtually no cap hit.

/Thread

[Guest Crymson]

/Thread

Agreed. And Kenny has been the absolute best in the cap era at finding such players.

Sammy is obviously no problem in the locker room either.

[Konnan511 1,736]

Agreed. And Kenny has been the absolute best in the cap era at finding such players.

Sammy is obviously no problem in the locker room either.

But Sammy is a problem at LGW, and that HAS to be factored into a managerial decision or else Kenny is not what we build him up to be.

[Opie 308]

For the record, Sammy played with Franzen and Filppula during most of the postseason. Cleary played with Drake and Draper.

I think you're referring to Samuelsson's jersey number, not his age.

Not unless he scored 13 points in the remainder, no.

Samuelsson scored twice in game four against the Avalanche; he scored our first goal and our last goal. I was there.

I stand corrected and yet I am still right in the discussion I was having, thanks for making my point stronger than I had made it, not only did he get assists in that series he also scored, just saying.

Thanks Crymson!

[egroen 384]

Sammy is a great deal at $1.2M... his contract is up at the end of the season and he could be a salary cap loss, or he could be exactly what Holland needs. I could see Sammy not ask for a huge raise, or much of one at all, even though he could ask for close to $3M as a free agent from some other teams.

How much of a raise will Hudler seek? Franzen? Unless Hossa is completely out of the question, those guys are more of a salary cap concern than Samuelsson, IMO.

As for the OP -- I have no clue. I just hope pre-season helps to make it an easy/easier decision.

[DatsyukownzU13 1]

I'll guarantee you the player who ends up taking his place when he leaves will be the same bane of peoples existence. The problem really isn't Samuelsson, it isn't even the way he's used on the ice it's what people expect from him is the problem. Sure he plays 14-16mins a game, sure he's on the point when he really doesn't generate much but the fact of the matter is he's one of the safest players (breaking Cleary's jaw aside) that you can put out there. He doesn't turn the puck over, he busts his ass on defense and he shoots a ton which is what every player should be doing. He's not a great player, he's not even a very good player he just is exactly the kind of player that this team and other teams need to fill spots for virtually no cap hit.

Do you watch hockey? This post just lost all credibility. Samuelsson turns the puck over more often than not when he has possession.

[DatsyukownzU13 1]

Please find me three examples of Sammy's "boneheads defensive plays." I often see people on here say that he's defensively terrible, but they never quite cite actual examples of such.

The guy costs us $1.2m and he scores. He shoots so much because Babcock tells him to. You'll also notice that he has been very valuable in the playoffs for the last two seasons---ESPECIALLY in the finals in this last playoff year, when he basically won us game one (on two unassisted goals, remember, so you can't attribute it to his linemates in any fashion either) and set up Filppula's goal in game six.

Yeesh.

Well, in recent memory... Sammy turned the puck over in our zone, which led to Morrow's goal that won Game 4 of the WCF. I could think of plenty more, but I dont feel like wasting too much time thinking about Sammy.

[Superman54 91]

Well, in recent memory... Sammy turned the puck over in our zone, which led to Morrow's goal that won Game 4 of the WCF. I could think of plenty more, but I dont feel like wasting too much time thinking about Sammy.

Wrong. It was Modano who scored the 2nd goal on the PP, Sammy wasn't on the ice.

[Opie 308]

GWG of game four was scored by Modano on the PP, 3-1 game, Morrow's goal was the 3rd and I am still researching to see if it came off of a turn over or if that was the bad change by cheli that caused that one.

Edited September 23, 2008 by Opie

[egroen 384]

Sammy does turn the puck over, usually as a result from him making his one patented deke move and then he seems to look totally lost after that if it does not work out as planned. But it is usually in the offensive zone where he pulls this and he knows better than to attempt it in our own zone or even neutral ice and is pretty good about bringing it up or making the pass without getting fancy.

Most of the time he turns it over simply by taking a long shot... but that is what Babcock seems to want him to do. He seemed much better about taking it to the net in the playoffs; hopefully we see more of that.

[Detroit Dan 0]

I've was extremely pleased with Sammy's play in the Stanley Cup Finals. To me, Maltby is the weakest regular forward. I've loved his play for years, but at the age of (almost) 36, he seems to have lost a bit. Helm was much better in the playoffs, in my opinion.

So I'd like to see Helm in place of Maltby. None of us have ever seen Leino, so it's hard to state authoritatively that he should be one of the 12 forwards. I look forward to seeing him in the pre-season, and during the regular season if one of the regulars is injured...

[Opie 308]

All I can find on that Morrow goal is that it came off of Ribiero's pass, nothing about a turn over. But that was the no goal for Homer's rear end in the crease but half of Eriksson was in the blue paint but his goal counted.