• Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

Sign in to follow this  
hckypete96

When considering the final forward spots....

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

(Opie @ September 23, 2008 - 02:06PM)

Hey next time you want to call me a ragging ***** on an internet forum, at least have something interesting to add to the discussion.

You're a ragging *****.

I fear dolphins.

Your move.

This topic's deviated pretty far from where it started...

Anyone still feel like talking hockey? Or addressing the topic at hand?

Edited by Shutemdown

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This topic's deviated pretty far from where it started...

Anyone still feel like talking hockey? Or addressing the topic at hand?

Maybe I fear dolphins because of a hockey related incident?

Well I don't. A dolphin is a pretty lame animal to base a sports franchise around.

I fear dolphins because they're aggressive swimmers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This topic's deviated pretty far from where it started...

Anyone still feel like talking hockey? Or addressing the topic at hand?

The person who adds the most to the team at the beginning of the NHL season should get that final spot, even if that means an unproven NHL rookie gets it or an experienced vet or a Griffin with loads of potential.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My prediction, (not what I want, but what I think is going to happen).

Sammy - Will form third line along with Flip and Cleary. And remains a bargain 30-40 points.

Leino - No real use on checking line. GR first liner, who is called up when injuries occur on top-9 forwards. Top-9 forward on 2009/2010 season.

Helm - GR top minutes, + some 4th line minutes.

Kopecky - So far I'm not too impressed. GR.

Maltby - Maybe not as good as once was, but still brings leadership and experience, and tons of it.

4th line prediction

Maltby-Draper-Downey/McCarty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LOL. f***, this thread is LOADED with hyperbole.

Steve Yzerman earnt the reputation of stepping it up in the playoffs.

Maxim Kuznetzov earnt the reputation of being useless.

Guy Carbonneau earnt the reputation of being a phenominal defensive forward.

In all three examples, Sammy doesn't compare.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Crymson
Yes Modano had the GWG but Morrow made the game 3-1 with 5 minutes left basically solidifying the game. Here's an exerpt:

"Morrow scored an insurance marker with 5:26 left following another Detroit turnover as Mikael Samuelsson failed to clear the defensive zone."

I recall a Capitals goal scored in the '98 SCF because Lidstrom failed to clear the puck out of our defensive zone.

This play by Sammy no more makes him a defensive liability than the analogous mistake by Lidstrom a decade ago.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I recall a Capitals goal scored in the '98 SCF because Lidstrom failed to clear the puck out of our defensive zone.

This play by Sammy no more makes him a defensive liability than the analogous mistake by Lidstrom a decade ago.

I remember McCarty scoring a game winning goal against Philadelphia in the Cup Finals, so that makes him equally as good of a goal-scorer as Sameulsson since he did the same.

Can we not stoop to that level of ignorance, please?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
My prediction, (not what I want, but what I think is going to happen).

Sammy - Will form third line along with Flip and Cleary. And remains a bargain 30-40 points.

Leino - No real use on checking line. GR first liner, who is called up when injuries occur on top-9 forwards. Top-9 forward on 2009/2010 season.

Helm - GR top minutes, + some 4th line minutes.

Kopecky - So far I'm not too impressed. GR.

Maltby - Maybe not as good as once was, but still brings leadership and experience, and tons of it.

4th line prediction

Maltby-Draper-Downey/McCarty

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Crymson
I remember McCarty scoring a game winning goal against Philadelphia in the Cup Finals, so that makes him equally as good of a goal-scorer as Sameulsson since he did the same.

Can we not stoop to that level of ignorance, please?

Given that you have only one example of Samuelsson's "defensive incompetence," and given that your comparison concerns abilities whilst mine concerns lack of abilities, I don't think that your comparison is quite valid. If you hadn't noticed, I wasn't at all saying that Samuelsson was Lidstrom's equal; I was saying that the *one* mistake that you've cited on Samuelsson's part no more makes him a defensive failure than would an analogous mistake by Lidstrom earlier in his career.

Nice try, though. Really.

For the record, McCarty's production in the regular season and playoffs in 1997 mirrored that of Samuelsson in the past few seasons.

Edited by Crymson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Given that you have only one example of Samuelsson's "defensive incompetence," and given that your comparison concerns abilities whilst mine concerns lack of abilities, I don't think that your comparison is quite valid. If you hadn't noticed, I wasn't at all saying that Samuelsson was Lidstrom's equal; I was saying that the *one* mistake that you've cited on Samuelsson's part no more makes him a defensive failure than would an analogous mistake by Lidstrom earlier in his career.

Nice try, though. Really.

For the record, McCarty's production in the regular season and playoffs in 1997 mirrored that of Samuelsson in the past few seasons.

Sorry, but I stopped reading here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, the +/- stats match my impression from watching last year with regards to the forwards. We had a great team, except our 4th line was sub-par. Draper was strong, but Drake and Maltby were weak, although Drake picked up his game significantly in the playoffs.

So I'm for replacing Maltby with Helm. The only mitigating factor might Maltby's performance as a penalty killer. We had the 8th best penalty killing in the league, which isn't bad...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't think it's advantageous to the Wing's roster to keep him on it...

Which is why I'm basically calling you a fool. Opinions are great, but you know what's even better? Informed opinions, or opinions with real weight behind them. What you're saying -- essentially, "I don't like Sammy. So it's not advantageous to keep him around" -- is not a good fundamental argument, and all the supporting evidence you've been using is porous at best. There is no argument for him being a defensive liability; he was signed on as a defensive specialist and he's lived up to that tag, as evidence by his stats and overall play. There is no argument for him not being a reliable point-producer; he racked up 40 points last year and stole a game for his team in the SCF. There is no argument for him not being able to play the role of a defensively responsible checking-line forward; it's the role he's best-suited for and he proved it with an exclamation point while playing with Drake and Draper. There is no argument for him being significantly overpaid; $1.2 is a steal for what he brings to the table. There is no argument for him being a waste of a roster spot; right now he's more valuable than Mac or Maltby or Downey or Kopecky, and I dare say his defensive game isn't exactly the worst of all the top-12, even top-6 players.

All there is is "I don't really like him." Well, congrats.

No one with half a brain is realistically expecting Abdelkader to be ready to play on the third line this season, let alone bring more to the table this season than what Sammy would bring. Why the Wings would feel the need to rush him in and cut Sammy loose with just a year left on his contract is beyond me. Leino is likely a "project"; he's got a ton of raw talent and immense potential (like I said, I've seen this guy play), but pound for pound, Sammy is the better choice this season. Unless Leino has some sort of "I play with the Wings this season or I never play NA hockey again" clause in his contract, the Wings wouldn't exactly be hurting themselves by sticking him in GR for the season -- whereas on the flipside, cutting Sammy loose and replacing him with Leino might not (read: very likely would not) pan out.

Edited by Dabura

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Which is why I'm basically calling you a fool. Opinions are great, but you know what's even better? Informed opinions, or opinions with real weight behind them. What you're saying -- essentially, "I don't like Sammy. So it's not advantageous to keep him around" -- is not a good fundamental argument, and all the supporting evidence you've been using is porous at best. There is no argument for him being a defensive liability; he was signed on as a defensive specialist and he's lived up to that tag, as evidence by his stats and overall play. There is no argument for him not being a reliable point-producer; he racked up 40 points last year and stole a game for his team in the SCF. There is no argument for him not being able to play the role of a defensively responsible checking-line forward; it's the role he's best-suited for and he proved it with an exclamation point while playing with Drake and Draper. There is no argument for him being significantly overpaid; $1.2 is a steal for what he brings to the table. There is no argument for him being a waste of a roster spot; right now he's more valuable than Mac or Maltby or Downey or Kopecky, and I dare say his defensive game isn't exactly the worst of all the top-12, even top-6 players.

All there is is "I don't really like him." Well, congrats.

No one with half a brain is realistically expecting Abdelkader to be ready to play on the third line this season, let alone bring more to the table this season than what Sammy would bring. Why the Wings would feel the need to rush him in and cut Sammy loose with just a year left on his contract is beyond me. Leino is likely a "project"; he's got a ton of raw talent and immense potential (like I said, I've seen this guy play), but pound for pound, Sammy is the better choice this season. Unless Leino has some sort of "I play with the Wings this season or I never play NA hockey again" clause in his contract, the Wings wouldn't exactly be hurting themselves by sticking him in GR for the season -- whereas on the flipside, cutting Sammy loose and replacing him with Leino might not (read: very likely would not) pan out.

Just re-read the whole argument I already had, because every question you raise is answered (and no, it's not a matter of liking and not liking). The players you state that are less valuable are either players that get little to no ice time based on their role for being on the team, or they are veterans that have been on the Red Wings for a very long time.

That basically is the complete 4th line. So 4th line aside, which player brings less to the table than Samuelsson? None. Two of those players also make less money than Sammy, but that's aside the point considering they are likely to get raises. What player turns the puck over as frequently as Samuelsson on the top 9, let alone the entire team? None. He has by far the worst puck control on our team (regulars, this is not considering McCarty or Downey). He also had the worst shooting percentage of all forwards for the regular season and second worst in the playoffs (4.4 and 6.3 respectively). Considered a physical reasonably sized player, he was outhit by all 4th-liners on the team averaging in at a whopping 1 hit per game for the season and playoffs combined (including Kopecky with far less games played).

Leino, Helm and Abdelkader are all much better, more fluent skaters than Samuelsson and all have untapped offensive potential. We've already seen the maximum of Samuelsson's game and to consider 11 goals impressive when shooting the puck over 260 times while being on the ice over 16 minutes a night is probably a bit off.

I don't mind you stating your opinion, but it's lame to call someone out for stating theirs. Continue on with your argument, but try to look at both sides of the debate before posting your post that states that your opinion is the only valid one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Which is why I'm basically calling you a fool. Opinions are great, but you know what's even better? Informed opinions, or opinions with real weight behind them. What you're saying -- essentially, "I don't like Sammy. So it's not advantageous to keep him around" -- is not a good fundamental argument, and all the supporting evidence you've been using is porous at best. There is no argument for him being a defensive liability; he was signed on as a defensive specialist and he's lived up to that tag, as evidence by his stats and overall play. There is no argument for him not being a reliable point-producer; he racked up 40 points last year and stole a game for his team in the SCF. There is no argument for him not being able to play the role of a defensively responsible checking-line forward; it's the role he's best-suited for and he proved it with an exclamation point while playing with Drake and Draper. There is no argument for him being significantly overpaid; $1.2 is a steal for what he brings to the table. There is no argument for him being a waste of a roster spot; right now he's more valuable than Mac or Maltby or Downey or Kopecky, and I dare say his defensive game isn't exactly the worst of all the top-12, even top-6 players.

All there is is "I don't really like him." Well, congrats.

No one with half a brain is realistically expecting Abdelkader to be ready to play on the third line this season, let alone bring more to the table this season than what Sammy would bring. Why the Wings would feel the need to rush him in and cut Sammy loose with just a year left on his contract is beyond me. Leino is likely a "project"; he's got a ton of raw talent and immense potential (like I said, I've seen this guy play), but pound for pound, Sammy is the better choice this season. Unless Leino has some sort of "I play with the Wings this season or I never play NA hockey again" clause in his contract, the Wings wouldn't exactly be hurting themselves by sticking him in GR for the season -- whereas on the flipside, cutting Sammy loose and replacing him with Leino might not (read: very likely would not) pan out.

Dude. You're awesome. :clap:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
He has by far the worst puck control on our team

And yet he somehow managed to rack up 40 points and a +21 ranking, and come up big in the SCF -- all while playing for $1.2m.

There's no objectivity to your argument, it's just "Blah blah blah he looked at my mom kinda funny this one time blah blah blah." I know you don't truly care about "the future" because you obviously haven't thought this stuff through. Abdelkader would be an unequivocal downgrade at this point in time. Leino, for all the raw talent he has, would probably be a downgrade at this point in time. And for what? So management can say, "We're embracing the future!"? Gimme a break! Half of "embracing the future" is about fostering legitimate *depth* on the *depth* chart. You cut Sammy loose (for no good reason) and suddenly you're cutting into your depth (for no good reason).

Moreover, in response to this "Sammy has peaked" argument: don't be so sure. Like I've said probably half a dozen times already, Sammy has been playing a role he's not really built to play: that of a top-6 scorer. And he's delivered despite that. Now he's going to be playing a role he's much more comfortable in. Do the math.

Edited by Dabura

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And yet he somehow managed to rack up 40 points and a +21 ranking, and come up big in the SCF -- all while playing for $1.2m.

There's no objectivity to your argument, it's just "Blah blah blah he looked at my mom kinda funny this one time blah blah blah." I know you don't truly care about "the future" because you obviously haven't thought this stuff through. Abdelkader would be an unequivocal downgrade at this point in time. Leino, for all the raw talent he has, would probably be a downgrade at this point in time. And for what? So management can say, "We're embracing the future!"? Gimme a break! Half of "embracing the future" is about fostering legitimate *depth* on the *depth* chart. You cut Sammy loose (for no good reason) and suddenly you're cutting into your depth (for no good reason).

Moreover, in response to this "Sammy has peaked" argument: don't be so sure. Like I've said probably half a dozen times already, Sammy has been playing a role he's not really built to play: that of a top-6 scorer. And he's delivered despite that. Now he's going to be playing a role he's much more comfortable in. Do the math.

I don't care about the future? So it's advantageous to keep an aging already pourous winger on our team versus a player that could debatably step in and be a better player with much more upside over the course of the next 5-10 years? If anything it sounds like you are being a bit narrow-minded. Fact of the matter is that getting rid of Sammy doesn't change much about this team at all. You would be replacing him with a player that could do what he does, but adds another dimension as well (i.e. Abdelkader - hitting, Leino - potential goalscoring/playmaking).

It's pointless to argue with you though because you will never take a chance to actually consider some of the points I make.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not trying to offend you but he is not taking your side because your arguments have lots of holes in them.

For instance Sammy may not be around 5 years down the road, even if he is not traded during the season he is a UFA at the end of the season, so in all actuallity the future means nothing in regards to this conversation. Therefore he is not impeeding Leino or Abdelkader, at worst he is giving the Wings the ability to keep these guys in GR for a year to see what they can do.

You have Sammy at 37 and over the hill, he is 31 and in his prime (whether you like his ability in his prime is irrelevant).

Also saying that Leino or Abdelkader could provide what Sammy does is not true and is wishfull thinking at best.

Sammy is a proven 40 pt player in the NHL, has been top 6 forward (stat wise not position) on this team every year in Detroit, and last year was 3rd or 4th on the team in scoring (can't remember off of the top of my head). You are assuming that a rookie, untested rookie, is going to come in and replace what he brings to the table in his first year.

You are assuming a lot and using a lot of opinion stated as fact, that is why he is disagreeing with you and not seeing your point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First a bunch of Downey fights:

Then some McCarty fights and a goal or two or three...

Lemeiex turns turtle....

a recent fight...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPwaGn8zZ9o

Hat trick against the AVs:

In the AHL but hey...he scored three times!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoQO6Q3-Rtk&NR=1

A pretty goal...

another goal not as a wing!

So you got a guy that can fight (Downey) and a guy whos getting older but that can still fight and has scored a few goals once upon a time...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So it's advantageous to keep an aging already pourous winger

1. Sammy is 31. 31 is not "aging." Talk about disregarding people's points -- you're acting as if you still think he's 37, despite the fact that about 5 different people have called you out on that completely inaccurate statement.

2. Re: "porous" -- if you're going to steal vocab words from you, at least be smart about how you use them. If Sammy were a "porous winger," he'd have s*** stats and play a s*** game. 40 points, a +21 ranking, strong two-way play, and a stolen game in the SCF =/= "porous winger." You might have a stronger case if he were making something like $3 million, but he's making close to half of that. Which is what we call a "bargain."

Keep lining 'em up -- I'll keep knocking 'em down.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this