Latest on Zetterberg talks

[rage 24]

If the difference between Franzen and Hossa is 4M on average vs 8M on average, you have to consider what you could do with that 4M extra in terms of depth.

Its not simply Franzen vs Hossa, its Franzen + extra money (cap space), flexibility, depth vs Hossa.

Honestly, if I'm Holland, and I'm trying to re-sign Hossa, the first corner I'm looking to cut besides letting the obvious dead weight go via their contracts ending (Sammy, Mac, Downey, Cheli, etc.) is Valterri Filppula. Say what you want about Filppula, but if we re-sign Hossa long-term, then you can be sure that Datsyuk is your 1st center, and Zetterberg is your 2nd. A $3M third-line center at that point is unnecessary with Darren Helm available. Besides Helm being some 2.5M cheaper, hes also just as fast, just as good defensively, and has enough offensive talent to produce a little secondary offense in a third line role.

The only other spot for Filppula on this team is in a 2nd line winger role, and the difference between a would-be long-term contract for Franzen as our 2nd line scorer and a 3M Filppula as our 2nd line scorer is not enough difference IMO to justify keeping Filppula over Franzen. You could feasibly re-sign Franzen for what Filppula (3M) and Samuelsson (1.2) collectively make on the long-term. Say, 4.2M over 6 years for Franzen. Not to mention, you could gain something of value in trading Filppula - a pick/prospect package. Theres also the option of trading Hudler and replacing him with Leino, keeping Hudler and re-signing him low-cost via arbitration or otherwise, or trading Hudler AND Filppula - either separately or together - to add a low-cost forward like Jiri Hudler ca. '08-09 and a pick or prospect or other package.

That was a pretty good post.

Why Dan Cleary has a NTC in his contract is beyond me. For me, in the above scenario, I'd replace Flip with Cleary.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

That was a pretty good post.

Why Dan Cleary has a NTC in his contract is beyond me. For me, in the above scenario, I'd replace Flip with Cleary.

Cleary IS another option and, in my eyes, I don't see why either player should be untouchable. Obviously, Cleary has the NTC and he did have more clout in contract negotiations considering he was a UFA and not an RFA, while also having come off an awesome playoff season where many people considered him Detroits best player. I'd be more inclined to ship him off first, but he is a better fit for the Wings in my eyes than Filppula is. Don't get me wrong - I think Filppula is a phenomenal player - I just don't see where he fits on this team. Hes too good and too expensive to be stuck in a third line center role, and hes not good enough offensively to be in a 2nd line scoring role. Also, everything Filpppula offers is ALWAYS going to be superfluous - skill, skating, defensive ability, supplementary scoring. We have all of that in spades in a scenario where we are trying to re-sign Hossa. Cleary is more versatile than Flip - his game doesn't suffer whether hes on the 2nd or 3rd line - and hes also a gritty guy whos willing to tango every once in a while. I'm not saying hes better than Filppula, just that hes different, and in the way that hes different, hes a better fit for the Wings.

[stormboy 47]

Cleary IS another option and, in my eyes, I don't see why either player should be untouchable. Obviously, Cleary has the NTC and he did have more clout in contract negotiations considering he was a UFA and not an RFA, while also having come off an awesome playoff season where many people considered him Detroits best player. I'd be more inclined to ship him off first, but he is a better fit for the Wings in my eyes than Filppula is. Don't get me wrong - I think Filppula is a phenomenal player - I just don't see where he fits on this team. Hes too good and too expensive to be stuck in a third line center role, and hes not good enough offensively to be in a 2nd line scoring role. Also, everything Filpppula offers is ALWAYS going to be superfluous - skill, skating, defensive ability, supplementary scoring. We have all of that in spades in a scenario where we are trying to re-sign Hossa. Cleary is more versatile than Flip - his game doesn't suffer whether hes on the 2nd or 3rd line - and hes also a gritty guy whos willing to tango every once in a while. I'm not saying hes better than Filppula, just that hes different, and in the way that hes different, hes a better fit for the Wings.

i have to agree with this. i love flipper. i think he could be a second line scorer on some other teams. if they put flipper with their best two second line guys, he'd probably produce more than with our third line guys...but yet, is anyone on the second line worse than him? that is to say, if we put flipper on the second line, would he produce more than any of the guys on that line now? it's hard to say, especially because it all depends on what kind of guys you're playing with, IMO. to me, flipper isn't going to do that great with a guy like sammy, but he could do great with a guy like datsyuk. that's just my feeling.

that being said, if some other team does see that value in him and we don't have room to put him on our second line, i personally would be really sad to see him go (i love the dude) but would probably admit that it was the best decision for the team.

but, to the topic of the thread, good to hear about the z talks. i'm sure whatever comes out will be, if not our ideal, something that's at least workable.

it's interesting to me that as big of red wings fans as we are, our "ideal" is never our players actually getting a high salary. granted, that's because we are team fans over individual fans, but it's just somehow ironic to me that we are always hoping for our favorite players in the world to get paid less. again, i understand why that is, i just think it's interesting.

[Icesurfer 75]

$7.45 MIL for 10 years. Thank goodness for LTIR, though. Z is more injury prone than Datsyuk or Hossa. I love Z as a player but if I had to choose between Z and Hossa it would be Hossa.... and only because Z is more prone to injury.

Hossa had 6 straight years of playing at least 80 games before playing only 72 games last year. If you look at patterns of injury prone players some of them have a pattern of playing less games every other year...... that is Z's pattern so far.... can not have two full years back-to-back. I have noticed that checking out players for Fantasy teams. And there are those who are injured all the time and you have the occassional injuries.

What worries me is the fact that one of Z's injuries involved the lumbar spine which is one injury that is most likely to reoccur. So if I was a betting person I would not bet on Z.

Datsyuk has had 4 straight years of playing at least 75 games.

[The Mule 0]

Good. Lock him up for as long as possible.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

10 year contract is ridiculous. I hope it will be 5 years max.

5 years isn't long enough to get the "home-town" discount Kenny will be looking for. Offering up 7-8 years (which is what I think he'll sign for) gives Kenny a little more bargaining power to keep the amount somewhat in check.

[Cruiser008 37]

.....The media favorite - Zetterberg traded at the deadline to the Toronto Canadien Shark-Preying Penguins for anything ranging from a 2nd round pick and Mike Sillinger to an impossible package of Syndey Crosby, Joe Thornton, Roberto Luongo and the coveted 2nd rounder in an 8-way deal.

Thanks I lol'ed at this.

[Reilly 24]

$7.45 MIL for 10 years. Thank goodness for LTIR, though. Z is more injury prone than Datsyuk or Hossa. I love Z as a player but if I had to choose between Z and Hossa it would be Hossa.... and only because Z is more prone to injury.

Hossa had 6 straight years of playing at least 80 games before playing only 72 games last year. If you look at patterns of injury prone players some of them have a pattern of playing less games every other year...... that is Z's pattern so far.... can not have two full years back-to-back. I have noticed that checking out players for Fantasy teams. And there are those who are injured all the time and you have the occassional injuries.

What worries me is the fact that one of Z's injuries involved the lumbar spine which is one injury that is most likely to reoccur. So if I was a betting person I would not bet on Z.

Datsyuk has had 4 straight years of playing at least 75 games.

Ok, but I'll take Zetterberg's Conn Smythe, Gold Medal, and Stanley Cup over Hossa's.......?

[egroen 384]

If the difference between Franzen and Hossa is 4M on average vs 8M on average, you have to consider what you could do with that 4M extra in terms of depth.

Its not simply Franzen vs Hossa, its Franzen + extra money (cap space), flexibility, depth vs Hossa.

Honestly, if I'm Holland, and I'm trying to re-sign Hossa, the first corner I'm looking to cut besides letting the obvious dead weight go via their contracts ending (Sammy, Mac, Downey, Cheli, etc.) is Valterri Filppula.

I was not a fan of Filppula's contract and think that is the first place to go to trim salary space. Helm, Leino and Abdelkader combined are still less than Filppula's salary right now. That fact should be taken advantage of.

Cleary's salary is not looking so hot right now either.

[Wingman 0]

Strange that so many were content to enjoy Hossa for one season, and thank the Wings' lucky stars, but now want more, more, more! How awkwardly optimistic. I myself would always prefer Franzen in the lineup if it comes down to one or another, because there are some things more important than top offense in the league or whatever. He's a guy that was drafted and made it to the NHL late, after working in a glass factory... he hated it, all he wants now is the privilege to play in the NHL. He has always seemed 3rd linish, until the preseason last year, the last 16 games and beyond. That's worth more to me than 10 more goals.

*sniff*

[Nev 1,085]

But isn't Leino on a 1 year contract? No guarentee he will sign with a cap-inhibited wings next year if someone offers him more.

Conceivably we could lose Sammy, Hudler, Maltby, DMac, Downey, Franzen and still not have enough to re-sign Hossa and only have Abdelkader and Helm to replace them.

Personally, if its a choice of Hossa vs Franzen + 2-3 depth players, I'm going to take the latter. Franzen has a beguiling combination of beef and hands that no-one else on our roster has, and our depth has been one of our greatest strengths these last 15 years

[daniel1 32]

I was not a fan of Filppula's contract and think that is the first place to go to trim salary space. Helm, Leino and Abdelkader combined are still less than Filppula's salary right now. That fact should be taken advantage of.

Cleary's salary is not looking so hot right now either.

Flip's 3mil cap hit right now is looking like an overpayment I agree, but his "actual" salary of 2mil for this year is more appropriate and at the time of the deal we didn't really know that we would be getting a Hossa that would be taking up minutes and bumping Val down to a more reduced 3rd line role. I expect he will be a bargain at 2.5mil next year when he's playing 2nd line minutes and 2nd line PP all year. I hope they do not relegate him to the 2nd line next year (when Hossa is likely gone) when we will have Helm and Draper who can center the 3rd and 4th line. I really hate this average Cap hit thing, I think what the player is actually making that year should count against the Cap rather than the average over the life of the contract, just my two cents from a very uninformed perspective as I have very little knowledge of it from either a Union or League perspective.

[13Wings40 0]

But isn't Leino on a 1 year contract? No guarentee he will sign with a cap-inhibited wings next year if someone offers him more.

Conceivably we could lose Sammy, Hudler, Maltby, DMac, Downey, Franzen and still not have enough to re-sign Hossa and only have Abdelkader and Helm to replace them.

Personally, if its a choice of Hossa vs Franzen + 2-3 depth players, I'm going to take the latter. Franzen has a beguiling combination of beef and hands that no-one else on our roster has, and our depth has been one of our greatest strengths these last 15 years

Leino can go anywhere and sign outside of the NHL after this year, but he is a RFA in the NHL. The wings would have the option to taking the compensatory picks or signing him if he signed by an NHL team.

[Nev 1,085]

OK thanks, I wasn't aware of that.

[Dominator2005 558]

If the difference between Franzen and Hossa is 4M on average vs 8M on average, you have to consider what you could do with that 4M extra in terms of depth.

Its not simply Franzen vs Hossa, its Franzen + extra money (cap space), flexibility, depth vs Hossa.

Honestly, if I'm Holland, and I'm trying to re-sign Hossa, the first corner I'm looking to cut besides letting the obvious dead weight go via their contracts ending (Sammy, Mac, Downey, Cheli, etc.) is Valterri Filppula. Say what you want about Filppula, but if we re-sign Hossa long-term, then you can be sure that Datsyuk is your 1st center, and Zetterberg is your 2nd. A $3M third-line center at that point is unnecessary with Darren Helm available. Besides Helm being some 2.5M cheaper, hes also just as fast, just as good defensively, and has enough offensive talent to produce a little secondary offense in a third line role.

The only other spot for Filppula on this team is in a 2nd line winger role, and the difference between a would-be long-term contract for Franzen as our 2nd line scorer and a 3M Filppula as our 2nd line scorer is not enough difference IMO to justify keeping Filppula over Franzen. You could feasibly re-sign Franzen for what Filppula (3M) and Samuelsson (1.2) collectively make on the long-term. Say, 4.2M over 6 years for Franzen. Not to mention, you could gain something of value in trading Filppula - a pick/prospect package. Theres also the option of trading Hudler and replacing him with Leino, keeping Hudler and re-signing him low-cost via arbitration or otherwise, or trading Hudler AND Filppula - either separately or together - to add a low-cost forward like Jiri Hudler ca. '08-09 and a pick or prospect or other package.

[b.shanafan14 733]

Holland is not going to move Filppula. What people are forgetting is that Hossa was already good and signed and Holland already knew the salary cap situation when he signed Filppula for 5 years.

In the last two games we have seen what we should have seen a while ago: Filppula moved to wing with Zetterberg on the second line, and he has looked great, giving Hank a more creative and all-around more skilled forward in Val. The money is being spent wisely for the time being and our best bet is to move Samuelsson down to the third line as soon as Franzen is ready to go (Tomorrow). The most potent line for a good deal of the playoffs last season was Franzen-Flip-Sammy, and trust me, Sammy was the least of the reason. Hank and Val have been creating nicely and Franzen has chemistry with both, tho I have my doubts Babcock will do it (given his history of Sammy-love), a Franzen-Zetterberg-Filppula line seems to be the better 2nd line option.

Next season we will see at least 3 new players in Helm, Abdelkader, and Ericcson, add Leino if he stays (which is a big IF considering his skill and the Wings lack of dough). See Samuelsson, Chelios, Mac, Maltby gone. After that, as others have said, its going to most likely come down to Franzen+Hudler+capspace vs. Hossa. Tough decisions, but if there is anyone in the league that could make 2+2=5 and produce another cup-contender its Ken Holland...

Edited November 11, 2008 by b.shanafan14

[South Dakota wings fan 7]

But isn't Leino on a 1 year contract? No guarentee he will sign with a cap-inhibited wings next year if someone offers him more.

Conceivably we could lose Sammy, Hudler, Maltby, DMac, Downey, Franzen and still not have enough to re-sign Hossa and only have Abdelkader and Helm to replace them.

Personally, if its a choice of Hossa vs Franzen + 2-3 depth players, I'm going to take the latter. Franzen has a beguiling combination of beef and hands that no-one else on our roster has, and our depth has been one of our greatest strengths these last 15 years

If Z does indeed sign soon, what are the chances Kenny is done for the season? Does he try to lock up anyone else or wait until the offseason? I know that is risky, but who would be next on the priority list? Tough decisions for sure.

Edited November 11, 2008 by South Dakota wings fan

[Grim 5]

Z's extension will only affect future cap numbers, am I right?

Barring long-term injury to a big money forward (knock-on-wood), I can't see Kenny adding another forward before the deadline. If we got room, its got to be for a rental defenseman.

[96warrior 11]

From MLIVE:

Holland says Zetterberg negotiations have yet to 'heat up'

Posted by George James Malik November 11, 2008 08:50AM

ESPN's Pierre LeBrun claimed that Red Wings GM Ken Holland has made progress in contract negotiations with Henrik Zetterberg's agent, but Holland denies the report, as he told the Windsor Star's Dave Waddell:

November 11, Windsor Star: Despite reports that contract talks between Henrik Zetterberg and the Wings are heating up, Detroit general manager Ken Holland said Monday there's still lot's of work ahead on getting a new deal done.

"We've gone back and forth since June, but we're nowhere near a deal," Holland said. "We're in the process of trying to figure out what works for the team and what works for the player."

Holland said he's had nothing but brief conversations to date with Johan Franzen's agent about a new contract for the potential unrestricted free agent.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Z's extension will only affect future cap numbers, am I right?

Barring long-term injury to a big money forward (knock-on-wood), I can't see Kenny adding another forward before the deadline. If we got room, its got to be for a rental defenseman.

From what I understand, teams have the option of letting a new deal affect the current years' cap number (I.E. the Alfredsson extension). It is at the teams discretion depending upon their current cap situation. Obviously, last year would've been a great opportunity for the Wings to relieve some of their average cap-hit given where they finished cap-wise.

[WingNut 25 5]

The only thing we know for sure is guys are gonna be gone. There are obvious names that unfortunately need to be let go and I'm ok with that. There are some good young players in the system (Leino, Helm, Abdelkader, etc.) that can step in next year to replace guys like Mac, Downey, Maltby, etc.

The big question is are guys gonna be willing to take less money? You also have to look down the road a year or 2 to see what other money is coming off the books (Lidstrom?) and you have to think Nick would take less money in his last years. Winning the Cup again would go a loooong way in being able to convince guys to take a hometown discount. The Wings need to target Z, Franzen and Hossa and go from there.

[Doogs 0]

Is there any concern in the Wing faithful, that the addition of Hossa might push Z to FA, even if it is just to see what is there? Not saying it will happen or that I hope it would, but the too many roosters theory? Z is one of the top teir guys in the NHL, Datsuyk too, Linstrom, now Hossa...

\

Just asking.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Is there any concern in the Wing faithful, that the addition of Hossa might push Z to FA, even if it is just to see what is there? Not saying it will happen or that I hope it would, but the too many roosters theory? Z is one of the top teir guys in the NHL, Datsuyk too, Linstrom, now Hossa...

\

Just asking.

No. Even if Z did get pushed back into FA, it will be by design with Kenny and him having a full understanding to see what they can get, all the while having a slight range of salary/term in mind.

[Doogs 0]

Doesn't that sound a little dangerous? A guy like Z could get offered the world by a team ...well, like Edmonton. Now why would he pick the Oilers over Wings? I get it, but going back to my original question and the Rooster Theory.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Doesn't that sound a little dangerous? A guy like Z could get offered the world by a team ...well, like Edmonton. Now why would he pick the Oilers over Wings? I get it, but going back to my original question and the Rooster Theory.

For a good portion of players it is risky, but Z has already stated he wants nothing more than to finish his career with the Red Wings. He's about to get married and his fiance just moved over from Sweden to support him. He's found a home in Detroit and he's not going to split over some team offering him $9 million per as opposed to the $7.5-$8 he'll get from the Wings.