Zetterberg Extension: 12 years, $73 million

[Frozen-Man 144]

1.You at least admit that this all is happening is mere speculation. Good.

Yes it is speculation but so is you saying that it is not going to happen, but your speculation is ok and everyone is dumb for speculating if it does agree with your speculation.

The fact that Finger was well paid does not mean that trade with Flippula is likely. You're drawing absolutely not connected "conclusions". What I'd like to see is: how good is chance to get Flippula traded?

No, the fact that Finger got $4M does not mean that a team would trade for Flip at $3M, but it does show that GM's are willing to more money for a player with less talent. You will be hard pressed to find many people that think that Kenny could not trade Flip away if he wanted/needed to (as I stated I don't think he will since he just signed him over the summer - but that doesn't change the fact that if he wanted to there would be takers). Not to mention that it would be good if we trade him to trade him for draft picks/prospects because what the Wings really want with the trade would be cap space which many other teams do not have a problem with and would like to add Flip to their roster for $3M.

Lidström took "hometown discount" b/c of he had earned pre salary cap era more than enough and still his "discount" was no more than a million

Datsyk signing was sort of gamble b/c of his previos PO performances were huge dissapontments and I'll remember clearly that many forumites considered that deal to be "too risky and way too expensive". Datsyk did not take "hometown discount" Zetterberg actually did not take any discount: from 12 yrs he probably does not play more than 8 (even less is more likely) and remaining 4 ( probably more) years will cover up nicely "discount" from "playing years"( and even after retiring his contract will count vs cap).

You won't find many that agree with you here because basically everyone thinks that Z took a hometown discount to stay here, most think that Z could have gotten $8-9M on the open market this summer. He will not make that much here. He might end up with the same total contract amount ($72M) with another team but it would be for substantially less years likely 8 years. That gives him much more money over a shorter term - this would give that team a cap hit of $9M per year which would hurt the Wings but be financially beneficial to Z. If you were told that you could make $500 for working 5 hours or $500 for working 10 hours you would be getting the same amount of money but one is a much better deal than the other. Concerning those final years you mention Z will only get paid $5M for the final three years which again goes to show you that getting more for working less years is better financially than what Z did in taking a true hometown discount. Most everyone agrees that a $6.06M a year cap hit for an assistant captain, future captain, selke finalist, Conn Smythe winner, Cup champion, and one of the top 10 two way players in the game is a great deal for the team as a result of the player taking a discount for the team.

Also, contrary to your assertion, if Z retires before his contract is over his contract will NOT count against the cap. The only way a retiring player's contract counts against the cap is if he is over 35 when he signs the contract.

isn't that "hometown discount" merely a myth? ( IMO it is - this discount isn't actually so big as perceived )

Keep also in mind that maybe Datsyk and Zetterberg own to Red Wings a little ( b/c of they were picked up from 200-ish draft spot and given a chance to play) but Hossa DOES NOT OWN TO RED WINGS ANYTHING - HE ALREADY TOOK DISCOUNT FOR ONE YEAR.

Not many would agree that there is no such thing as a hometown discount many players take one - if a player takes less from the team than he could get on the open market it is a hometown discount, many players have done it before and Z took a huge one for the team and to remain a Wing.

As for Hossa, no he doesn't owe the Wings anything but that isn't the only reason to take a smaller payday with one team rather than a larger one with another and Hossa taking a discount last year proves that. If owing the Wings is the only reason to take a discount then why did Hossa do it last year? Maybe because other things may matter to the player - maybe he wants to play on a winning team, maybe he likes the way that he has been treated and dealt with in Detroit, maybe he likes the city, maybe he likes the European style with puck control that the Wings play better than any other team, maybe he likes guys with great work ethic that play great two way hockey (2 of the 3 Selke finalists last year including the winner), maybe he doesn't want to move again. Who knows what Hossa will do - but you have not more ground to state that he won't take a discount to stay with the Wings than I do to say that he might take one (he has done it in the past when no one thought he would). In fact commenting on the Z contract Hossa's agent said "Marian likes Detroit; he's had a great time there and we've had discussions with Ken (Holland), but he wanted to get Henrik done first," said Winter. "One of his priorities with Marian is trying to figure out how he can stay there." If you don't think it is possible that is fine but others are not morons for thinking he might.

[hoogs 8]

Holy s*** 12 years???? That is my initial reaction to this, 12 years is a LONG time. Can anybody say Captain Zetterberg??

[C-Dub 0]

#40 to the rafters, baby!

The Captain-Elect of the Detroit Red Wings...whenever Lids is ready to call it a career.

[hokike 1]

Yes it is speculation but so is you saying that it is not going to happen, but your speculation is ok and everyone is dumb for speculating if it does agree with your speculation.

I have noticed that tone is here mostly " I want to trade...trade him", not what might happen

No, the fact that Finger got $4M does not mean that a team would trade for Flip at $3M, but it does show that GM's are willing to more money for a player with less talent. You will be hard pressed to find many people that think that Kenny could not trade Flip away if he wanted/needed to (as I stated I don't think he will since he just signed him over the summer - but that doesn't change the fact that if he wanted to there would be takers). Not to mention that it would be good if we trade him to trade him for draft picks/prospects because what the Wings really want with the trade would be cap space which many other teams do not have a problem with and would like to add Flip to their roster for $3M.

Even Ken Holland has admitted that draft picks in salary cap era have much bigger value, so I do not see other teams to throw away their valuable draft picks for unproven yet still potential players. Risk for trading Flippula is for others too high and therefore unlikely. What LGW forumites tend to forget that it is not others GMs work to do favours for Red Wings.

Also, contrary to your assertion, if Z retires before his contract is over his contract will [b]NOT[/b] count against the cap.

Nice loophole, wonder why teams do not use it more frequently?

As for Hossa, no he doesn't owe the Wings anything but that isn't the only reason to take a smaller payday with one team rather than a larger one with another and Hossa taking a discount last year proves that. If owing the Wings is the only reason to take a discount then why did Hossa do it last year? Maybe because other things may matter to the player - maybe he wants to play on a winning team, maybe he likes the way that he has been treated and dealt with in Detroit, maybe he likes the city, maybe he likes the European style with puck control that the Wings play better than any other team, maybe he likes guys with great work ethic that play great two way hockey (2 of the 3 Selke finalists last year including the winner), maybe he doesn't want to move again. Who knows what Hossa will do - but you have not more ground to state that he won't take a discount to stay with the Wings than I do to say that he might take one (he has done it in the past when no one thought he would). In fact commenting on the Z contract Hossa's agent said "Marian likes Detroit; he's had a great time there and we've had discussions with Ken (Holland), but he wanted to get Henrik done first," said Winter. "One of his priorities with Marian is trying to figure out how he can stay there." If you don't think it is possible that is fine but others are not morons for thinking he might.

My sticking point is that Hossa rejected 90 million deal, it means that he wanted more, and if not more then surely not less.

All those quotes from Holland and from Hossa's agent are pure PR crap, I mean what did you expect them to say?

Of course, Holland tries to work something out, but simply there is no room for 8 mil ( or more) per year deal w/o sacrificing Franzen and Hudler.

All those "mathematicians" presume that Flippula will get traded...

There is a difference between healthy speculations and wishful thinking. I have noticed that the later is prevailing here....

Edited January 28, 2009 by hokike

[titanium2 867]

#40 to the rafters, baby!

The Captain-Elect of the Detroit Red Wings...whenever Lids is ready to call it a career.

Oooohh. Now there's a good debate starter. You know how incredibly special you have to be to achieve that? You know many Red Wings have made the hall of fame? You know how many Red Wings have their numbers retired? I bet that ratio is ridiculous. I'd love to see it but we probably won't have a good idea of whether or not that will happen until the winding years of his contract.

[lets go pavel 2]

My sticking point is that Hossa rejected 90 million deal, it means that he wanted more, and if not more then surely not less.

What are you talking about? He already took less. He didn't reject $90 million because it wasn't enough, he rejected it because he wanted to win, not sit at home spending his millions in Vancouver this May. Maybe he decides after this year that he wants the $, but it's just as reasonable to think he might make the same decision that he made last summer.

[toby91_ca 620]

I wouldn't be suprised if the 9th year of Z's contract paid him $6.7 million, making the drop from year 9-10 of $3.7 million the max it could be (i.e. 50% of $7.4 million - lower of first 2 years).

I honestly haven't spent a lot of time looking at this type of thing, but I wonder what the retirement rules are. For example, I wonder what would stop them from adding another 5 years at the end for $1 million each, which would bring the cap hit down considerably and they wouldn't have to pay because he'd retire long before that. I've been working too much lately and have a serious headache, so I'm probably just missing something, but I can't be bothered to look it up right now.

[Chelios57 31]

Raise your hand if you thought Z's cap hit would be 6.083!

[Chelios57 31]

*double post for some reason?

Edited January 28, 2009 by Chelios57

[lets go pavel 2]

I honestly haven't spent a lot of time looking at this type of thing, but I wonder what the retirement rules are. For example, I wonder what would stop them from adding another 5 years at the end for $1 million each, which would bring the cap hit down considerably and they wouldn't have to pay because he'd retire long before that. I've been working too much lately and have a serious headache, so I'm probably just missing something, but I can't be bothered to look it up right now.

I was wondering that too, but I'm guessing the league would veto it if we tried to give him a 20 year contract where the last 10 are for 1 million apiece.

[toby91_ca 620]

What are you talking about? He already took less. He didn't reject $90 million because it wasn't enough, he rejected it because he wanted to win, not sit at home spending his millions in Vancouver this May. Maybe he decides after this year that he wants the $, but it's just as reasonable to think he might make the same decision that he made last summer.

Well, he clearly took less because he wanted to win, but he's only on a one year deal. He probably figured that he'd take less this year and then he could recoup in a new deal next year. Either way, for the Wings to keep him, he can't be making the discounted value he makes now, it'd have to be even less.

[Frozen-Man 144]

Even Ken Holland has admitted that draft picks in salary cap era have much bigger value, so I do not see other teams to throw away their valuable draft picks for unproven yet still potential players. Risk for trading Flippula is for others too high and therefore unlikely. What LGW forumites tend to forget that it is not others GMs work to do favours for Red Wings.

Your missing the point - if there is a trade the goal for Kenny will be cap space and whatever draft picks/prospects will just be gravy. In fact, the trade might even be just for a player with and expiring contract, no draft picks at all just cap space at the end of the year.

Also, contrary to your assertion, if Z retires before his contract is over his contract will [b]NOT[/b] count against the cap.

Nice loophole, wonder why teams do not use it more frequently?

It's not a loophole its right there in the CBA and other teams do use it. Any player's salary that retires will not count against the cap unless the contract was signed by a player over 35. No loophole just the rule, for every team in every situation.

My sticking point is that Hossa rejected 90 million deal, it means that he wanted more, and if not more then surely not less.

What?????? So your saying that Hossa wanted more than $90M so he instead took a $7.45M deal. You are the first person I have ever heard say that Hossa rejected the $90M deal because he wanted more money. That makes no sense. $90M is not enough money so I'm going to take the $7.45M deal (which Kenny actually offered more with Lids approval and Hossa said not to worry about it). I have heard people say they thought Hossa was stupid for turning down the big guaranteed contract to chase the Cup (i.e. caring more about winning than money) but you are the only person that I have ever heard say that Hossa was actually being greedy and wanted more money. I don't understand your rationale there at all - - that is one of the biggest leaps of logic I have ever seen. From all accounts Hossa didn't care about the money he wanted to win.

There is a difference between healthy speculations and wishful thinking. I have noticed that the later is prevailing here....

Again, you act as if what you do is healthy speculation but everyone else is just wishful thinking - was it wishful thinking to get Hossa on the team this year, was it wishful thinking to get Z locked up for a cap hit of $6.06M? Maybe so but if it was then healthy speculation was wrong and wishful thinking was right. Kenny has gotten players and contract people did not think he could get and so people have faith that he can accomplish more than most GM's. Look back - no one thought Hossa would be here this year but he is regardless of what healthy speculation (according to your terms) dictated.

[toby91_ca 620]

Raise your hand if you thought Z's cap hit would be 6.083!

To be honest, I'm not all that surprised. Based on all the other long-term fancy contracts, I figured they'd put something together than ended up falling off to very little money towards the end to bring the cap number down, but he'd still be making $7-8 million in the earlier years.

Depends on how you looked at it. If he signed for 4-5 years, the hit would have certainly been a lot higher, but signing for a very long term allows for players to take a less per year amount, which gets the cap hit down.

This works for a guy like Zetterberg, who is 28, but it doesn't work for a guys like Crosby and Ovechkin, who are much younger. That said, Ovechkin signed for a very long term contract at a very high amount, but I think his contract only takes him to his early 30's, they certainly wouldn't have signed him to a contract through til his 40's that paid him a yearly average of the same.

[redwing_sparty 0]

very classy. z put the team ahead of himself. very very happy that he;s here to stay.

[Chelios57 31]

To be honest, I'm not all that surprised. Based on all the other long-term fancy contracts, I figured they'd put something together than ended up falling off to very little money towards the end to bring the cap number down, but he'd still be making $7-8 million in the earlier years.

Depends on how you looked at it. If he signed for 4-5 years, the hit would have certainly been a lot higher, but signing for a very long term allows for players to take a less per year amount, which gets the cap hit down.

This works for a guy like Zetterberg, who is 28, but it doesn't work for a guys like Crosby and Ovechkin, who are much younger. That said, Ovechkin signed for a very long term contract at a very high amount, but I think his contract only takes him to his early 30's, they certainly wouldn't have signed him to a contract through til his 40's that paid him a yearly average of the same.

Good point actually.

[egroen 384]

Even Ken Holland has admitted that draft picks in salary cap era have much bigger value, so I do not see other teams to throw away their valuable draft picks for unproven yet still potential players. Risk for trading Flippula is for others too high and therefore unlikely. What LGW forumites tend to forget that it is not others GMs work to do favours for Red Wings.

The consensus on the going rate on Filppula seems to be a 2nd round pick and a mid-tier prospect:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=600285

"Unproven"? I could have sworn he was playing in the NHL.... unlike the vast majority of drafted players.

[lets go pavel 2]

Well, he clearly took less because he wanted to win, but he's only on a one year deal. He probably figured that he'd take less this year and then he could recoup in a new deal next year. Either way, for the Wings to keep him, he can't be making the discounted value he makes now, it'd have to be even less.

True, he is one a 1-year deal, but I seem to recall that's all we offered at the time because we needed to see how everything would play out with Z, the other FA'a, and also the cap. I think he could probably earn around what he's making now if we frontload a contract similar to Z's to bring the cap hit down ... but that wouldn't leave much for the other roster spots.

[lets go pavel 2]

The consensus on the going rate on Filppula seems to be a 2nd round pick and a mid-tier prospect:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=600285

"Unproven"? I could have sworn he was playing in the NHL.... unlike the vast majority of drafted players.

Yes, but he still hasn't proven that he's better than what he's proven to be ...

(edit: for clarification, this isn't a swipe at Flip, just being silly)

Edited January 28, 2009 by lets go pavel

[egroen 384]

Yes, but he still hasn't proven that he's better than what he's proven to be ...

Prove it!

[lets go pavel 2]

Prove it!

The proof is in the pudding ...

(what the hell does that mean, anyway?)

[egroen 384]

The proof is in the pudding ...

(what the hell does that mean, anyway?)

Yeah, I'm all giddy from this signing - just opens up so many more possibilities than I thought the Wings would have.

Proof is in the pudding -- We need to go to the source to find the truth ourselves -- IE. EAT YOUR PUDDING!!!

[Chelios57 31]

According to Freep

Zetterberg will make $7.4 million next season, because he didn't want to make more than captain Nicklas Lidstrom, who will make $7.45 million. Here is the exact breakdown:

09-10 $7.4 Million

10-11 $7.75 Million

11-12 $7.75 Million

12-13 $7.75 Million

13-14 $7.5 Million

14-15 $7.5 Million

15-16 $7.5 Million

16-17 $7.5 Million

17-18 $7.0 Million

18-19 $3.35 Million

19-20 $1.0 Million

20-21 $1.0 Million

The important number, though, is that this deal averages out to a $6.08-million-per-season salary-cap hit. That makes it all the more possible to re-sign someone like Marian Hossa, who also is after a long-term deal.

Link

[alienanxiety 23]

just checking out the top contracts and their cap# it really shows what a great deal this is for the Wings.

http://www.nhlnumbers.com/sort.php

[lets go pavel 2]

I like this:

Zetterberg will make $7.4 million next season, because he didn't want to make more than captain Nicklas Lidstrom, who will make $7.45 million.

Not "the Red Wings didn't want him to make more" ... damn, we have some character guys on this team.

[alienanxiety 23]

hmm, i wonder how open the rules are to exploiting the cap hit avg. i mean, let's say hossa wants to play for 6 more years then go back to europe, what is to stop holland from signing hossa for 7.5 million for 6 years and then for 1 million for another 6 years. that's a cap hit of only 4.25 million. hossa could then just retire after the six years and that's that.

Edited January 28, 2009 by alienanxiety