Sign Leino up Holland

[ComradeWasabi 109]

Homer is NOT replaceable for someone who makes what he makes. Neither Franzen or Cleary fill his net-front role as well as he does (although I will admit that both probably have better upsides elsewhere.. ie they can shoot) but both will make more money. For what Holmstrom does, he is a steal.

[norrisnick 1]

What's all this nonsense here.

Like I said, Kenny is going to have to take a long hard look at the guys that have contracts and the guys that need contracts.

Holmstrom is going to come in shy of 60 games played for the second straight season due to a hernia/groin issue. He's 36 and maybe, just maybe, his Demolition Man routine is catching up with him. He's not going to be an integral piece of the puzzle 2-3-4-5+ years from now, but players that don't currently have contracts will. Does Holmstrom deserve loyalty any more than Franzen or Hudler who also haven't played in anything but red and white?

[LeftWinger 5,153]

Leino and Helm can replace Filppula. They can't replace Hudler as well.

...well, Leino is on an 82 point scoring pace, Hudler is not. Given a full season, Leino will probably be as productive as Hudler, but we will not know until Leino has a full season here. ALthough, you lose some of the offense of Filppula with Helm, but Helm has prven his worth and can step into a 3rd of 4th line role next season. This roster will more than likely stayed intact trougout the playoffs (even if they sign Leino, Hossa & Franzen by July 1st.) The trade will come in the off season, and if Flip puts up similar numbers again in the post season, that'll only increase his worth...

...here's the choices, Filpulla and Hudler for a $6 million cap hit or Hossa and Franzen for an $8.5 million cap hit...

...that should be a no-brainer, even for all the Hudler ball-lickers out there...

...not even mentioning the reutrn value, you lose Hossa adn Franzen, You get nothing, you lose, good day sir!

...you trade Flip and let Hudler walk, you get probably a 2nd rounder for Flip and you get a 1st and a 3rd for Hudler because he is worth and will sign for about $3 million. Thats potentially 2 first rounders, 2 sescond rounders and 2 third rounders (including our own pics) in the same draft! Hate to see them go, but BYE BYE Flip and Huds!

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Holmstrom is going to come in shy of 60 games played for the second straight season due to a hernia/groin issue. He's 36 and maybe, just maybe, his Demolition Man routine is catching up with him. He's not going to be an integral piece of the puzzle 2-3-4-5+ years from now, but players that don't currently have contracts will. Does Holmstrom deserve loyalty any more than Franzen or Hudler who also haven't played in anything but red and white?

I'm not worried about loyalty at all, but 60 of 80 ain't bad for all the work that he does. Yeah, he won't be around in 5 years but he's only making $2.250M right now. He could conceivably take even less for another say, 2 year contract after that. He's not breaking the bank for what he does. As far as I'm concerned he's not in the same ballpark as Maltby and Draper.

...well, Leino is on an 82 point scoring pace, Hudler is not.

Sample size brah.

Given a full season, Leino will probably be as productive as Hudler

Welcome to Unsupported Claim Theater! Maybe though, given how Mike likes to dole out ice time.

[Z and D for the C 712]

If we sign Hossa I hope we DON'T sign Franzen, even if we can. He can score goals but he isn't good at carrying the puck in the zone. In fact he isn't good at anything really but a good shot. I'd rather have Huds, Flip or even go to the FA to find another 2nd line player to play with Leino and Hossa next year.

[norrisnick 1]

...well, Leino is on an 82 point scoring pace, Hudler is not. Given a full season, Leino will probably be as productive as Hudler, but we will not know until Leino has a full season here. ALthough, you lose some of the offense of Filppula with Helm, but Helm has prven his worth and can step into a 3rd of 4th line role next season. This roster will more than likely stayed intact trougout the playoffs (even if they sign Leino, Hossa & Franzen by July 1st.) The trade will come in the off season, and if Flip puts up similar numbers again in the post season, that'll only increase his worth...

...here's the choices, Filpulla and Hudler for a $6 million cap hit or Hossa and Franzen for an $8.5 million cap hit...

...that should be a no-brainer, even for all the Hudler ball-lickers out there...

...not even mentioning the reutrn value, you lose Hossa adn Franzen, You get nothing, you lose, good day sir!

...you trade Flip and let Hudler walk, you get probably a 2nd rounder for Flip and you get a 1st and a 3rd for Hudler because he is worth and will sign for about $3 million. Thats potentially 2 first rounders, 2 sescond rounders and 2 third rounders (including our own pics) in the same draft! Hate to see them go, but BYE BYE Flip and Huds!

Does the term "sample size" mean anything to you? Brunnstrom scored a hattrick his first game. How'd that turn out for him?

Leino could probably cover Fil's offense, maybe. And Helm his speed, defense, tenacity. But even with Fil's mediocre offense if you combine him and what Hudler is on pace for Leino and Helm would need to combine for 107 points. Good luck with that.

The Wings cannot afford Hossa AND Franzen without losing far more than just Hudler and Filppula. Just not possible. You have to move Filppula just to be able to keep Hudler and Leino along with whichever one of the other two you keep. $8.5M for Hossa and Franzen is just abandoning all concepts of reason. Just won't happen. Combining for $10M would already be massive discounts by both.

You need to stay in touch with reality.

[norrisnick 1]

I'm not worried about loyalty at all, but 60 of 80 ain't bad for all the work that he does. Yeah, he won't be around in 5 years but he's only making $2.250M right now. He could conceivably take even less for another say, 2 year contract after that. He's not breaking the bank for what he does. As far as I'm concerned he's not in the same ballpark as Maltby and Draper.

The salary cap is a *****. He's not as bad as Maltby and Draper, but another 2 year deal would easily put him there. Would you keep Holmstrom if it meant losing one of Franzen, Hudler, Cleary, Filppula? That's my point here. Kenny can't keep letting his old soldiers dictate when they've had enough. Not when we have current and future soldiers that need to be retained.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Would you keep Holmstrom if it meant losing one of Franzen, Hudler, Cleary, Filppula?

Yeah, well if it comes down to Homer vs X then we'll see, but there are enough factors in play where I think we've got enough room for one old guy, but not four or five.

That's my point here. Kenny can't keep letting his old soldiers dictate when they've had enough. Not when we have current and future soldiers that need to be retained.

Trust me, I'm with you. Loyalty will only get you so far. I think Kenny's juuust about ready to let go of Cheli, and he's 47.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Does the term "sample size" mean anything to you? Brunnstrom scored a hattrick his first game. How'd that turn out for him?

Leino could probably cover Fil's offense, maybe. And Helm his speed, defense, tenacity. But even with Fil's mediocre offense if you combine him and what Hudler is on pace for Leino and Helm would need to combine for 107 points. Good luck with that.

The Wings cannot afford Hossa AND Franzen without losing far more than just Hudler and Filppula. Just not possible. You have to move Filppula just to be able to keep Hudler and Leino along with whichever one of the other two you keep. $8.5M for Hossa and Franzen is just abandoning all concepts of reason. Just won't happen. Combining for $10M would already be massive discounts by both.

You need to stay in touch with reality.

Agreed Norris. Anyone who underestimates how valuable Hudler is to this team is absolutely nuts. Hudler is this team's offensive depth. He's also 24 and has improved every season since joining the team. This kid is the real deal. Holland knows that and I really don't see Hudler leaving the Wings unless it means he got a huge offer sheet and the Wings walked off with a 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

[Yzerman191 37]

...well, Leino is on an 82 point scoring pace, Hudler is not. Given a full season, Leino will probably be as productive as Hudler, but we will not know until Leino has a full season here. ALthough, you lose some of the offense of Filppula with Helm, but Helm has prven his worth and can step into a 3rd of 4th line role next season. This roster will more than likely stayed intact trougout the playoffs (even if they sign Leino, Hossa & Franzen by July 1st.) The trade will come in the off season, and if Flip puts up similar numbers again in the post season, that'll only increase his worth...

...here's the choices, Filpulla and Hudler for a $6 million cap hit or Hossa and Franzen for an $8.5 million cap hit...

...that should be a no-brainer, even for all the Hudler ball-lickers out there...

...not even mentioning the reutrn value, you lose Hossa adn Franzen, You get nothing, you lose, good day sir!

...you trade Flip and let Hudler walk, you get probably a 2nd rounder for Flip and you get a 1st and a 3rd for Hudler because he is worth and will sign for about $3 million. Thats potentially 2 first rounders, 2 sescond rounders and 2 third rounders (including our own pics) in the same draft! Hate to see them go, but BYE BYE Flip and Huds!

Maybe it's because most "Hudler ball-lickers" figure that Hossa and Franzen aren't going to sign for a combined 8.5M. It cracks me up when people on a message board claim to know what a player is going to sign for. Honestly, Hossa at 6M would be a tremendous discount for what he could get on the open market. Also, locking multiple players up in a Zetterberg-like deal is just going to cause problems down the line. If you think Hudler is going to sign for 3M, then you must have Franzen signing for AT LEAST 4M. Hossa certainly won't take less than 6M, and even that is a huge stretch.

Losing Hudler at this point would be stupid. The little guy would be a bargain long-term for a 3M/yr deal. Do me a favor: check Zetterberg and Datsyuk's stats when they were 25 years old, then compare them to Hudler's. You'll see why some are so weary of losing him.

I think our best bet is to nab Franzen for ~4M if possible, and Hudler for around 3M if possible. Sign Leino, add a gritty role player (Neil would be fantastic), a backup goalie, and a guy like Helm, and we've got a very solid roster for at least the next few years. If Franzen wants more than he's worth and Hossa's willing to take less than he's worth, grab Hossa and trade someone (like Flip) to make it possible.

[LeftWinger 5,153]

Does the term "sample size" mean anything to you? Brunnstrom scored a hattrick his first game. How'd that turn out for him?

Leino could probably cover Fil's offense, maybe. And Helm his speed, defense, tenacity. But even with Fil's mediocre offense if you combine him and what Hudler is on pace for Leino and Helm would need to combine for 107 points. Good luck with that.

The Wings cannot afford Hossa AND Franzen without losing far more than just Hudler and Filppula. Just not possible. You have to move Filppula just to be able to keep Hudler and Leino along with whichever one of the other two you keep. $8.5M for Hossa and Franzen is just abandoning all concepts of reason. Just won't happen. Combining for $10M would already be massive discounts by both.

You need to stay in touch with reality.

...reality says $8.5 million is an AVERAGE cap hit, not unlike Zetterberg's $6 million AVERAGE cap hit. Reality says Hossa is better than Hudler, Filppula and Franzen combined. Reality says let Hudler walk for draft pick compensation rather than Franzen for nothing. Filppula is already signed, if you don't plan on trading him, then Hudler will be out. Reality says, do what is best for the team and that is losing Hudler and getting compensated for it. Nothing personal, just business...

...as much as the argument goes that the Wings won a Cup without Hossa already, they could certainly win again without Hudler. If keeping Hudler and Filppula means not a chance on Hossa, then adios guys, Hossa is our man and he will EASILY replace the both of them...

...cap world reality, sometimes you got to let go of your favorite players. Kiss him goodbye now, because Hossa will take his money...

[egroen 384]

Regarding Hudler:

First -- Someone has to make an offer sheet before we get anything for Hudler, and that is not something you just plan on. Offer sheets are not terribly common.

Second -- Leino and Hudler are aproximately the same age. They are both producing at the same rate except Leino is doing so in the AHL with 1st line minutes and Hudler is doing it in the NHL with 3rd line minutes. When Hudler was years younger than what Leino is now, he was third in the AHL in points; he set a Griffins franchise record for assists in a year. Leino is not even close to the player Hudler is yet and anyone who thinks Leino can just "replace" Hudler is out of their gourd.

[norrisnick 1]

...reality says $8.5 million is an AVERAGE cap hit, not unlike Zetterberg's $6 million AVERAGE cap hit.

Average or actual, you're delusional if you think Hossa and Franzen can be signed at a combined $8.5M cap hit.

Reality says Hossa is better than Hudler, Filppula and Franzen combined.

Which is a big part of why getting him signed under the cap will be next to impossible without losing at least 2 of those 3 (or players of similar salary).

Reality says let Hudler walk for draft pick compensation rather than Franzen for nothing. Filppula is already signed, if you don't plan on trading him, then Hudler will be out. Reality says, do what is best for the team and that is losing Hudler and getting compensated for it. Nothing personal, just business...

I plan on trading Filppula.

...as much as the argument goes that the Wings won a Cup without Hossa already, they could certainly win again without Hudler. If keeping Hudler and Filppula means not a chance on Hossa, then adios guys, Hossa is our man and he will EASILY replace the both of them...

Like I stated above when you suggested Leino and Helm could replace them, 107 points.

...cap world reality, sometimes you got to let go of your favorite players.

Which very well could include Hossa, just as it did Fedorov.

Kiss him goodbye now, because Hossa will take his money...

I know you hate to consider it, but apart from players already signed Hudler is easily the most likely to stick around seeing as he's RFA.

[BlueMonk 102]

Filppula has to go. Too much money, bad contract.

Hudler needs to stay; letting him go would be disastrous. In fact, I propose the relatively radical idea that Hudler QB the 2nd PP unit. He's a great playmaker and makes better decisions with the puck than Sammy.

Hossa will cost too much money. If you take today's roster and add Zetterber's raise that takes effect next year, they're already f**ked. Franzen might take a discount to stay, but Hossa is impossible to fit under the cap unless he goes nuts like Kariya and Selanne did to sign with Colorado that one season. Which won't happen.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

In fact, I propose the relatively radical idea that Hudler QB the 2nd PP unit. He's a great playmaker and makes better decisions with the puck than Sammy.

Didn't he do that for the Griffs?

[BlueMonk 102]

Didn't he do that for the Griffs?

I don't know! If so, remove the "radical" from my above post

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

I don't know! If so, remove the "radical" from my above post

Well, no matter, he was born wrong-handed, too short, and not Swedish enough to convince Mike.

[BlueMonk 102]

Hudler's playing the best hockey of his life right now. Hard to be too critical of Babs' handling of him when you consider where Hudler's game is at right now. Different roads for different folks and what not, maybe it was good for him.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

I've never played competitive hockey and I know f***all about coaching, but I'll be damned if Hudler isn't being under utilized by Babcock.

[BlueMonk 102]

Well someone has to sit to get Tomas Kopecky his minutes!

[norrisnick 1]

Hudler did in fact QB the Griffs in '06 when they were the top scoring team with the top PP in the AHL.

Where he is now is not the problem. He's the Datsyuk of the 2nd unit along the half-boards. He can make plays up to the point or down low from there, which is perfect. The problem is simply Sammy. He's a trainwreck with the puck. Put anyone that can handle a pass and give it to the open man, and we'd be better off for it.

Sammy's right-handed shot has injured more teammates from the point than scored goals which are almost always when he's below the dots.

[Aussie_Wing 354]

...there WILL be, there WILL be! Sign him now fro 5 years 875,000 each! IN 5 years, Drapes and Malts will be since retired, Cleary won't be making as much (he'll be a UFA.) Then, if he proves he is worth it, give him his million dollar contract!

...Leino is the real Deal, he'll more thatn offset the loss of Flip and Huds...

Are you deluded? So Leino, aka the real deal, will sign for 5 years at 875,000 each?

...he'll be traded in the off-season, probably near draft day or around training camp, and probably for no more than a 2nd round draft pick....

Again, you're deluded.

[Aussie_Wing 354]

Hossa will cost too much money. If you take today's roster and add Zetterber's raise that takes effect next year, they're already f**ked. Franzen might take a discount to stay, but Hossa is impossible to fit under the cap unless he goes nuts like Kariya and Selanne did to sign with Colorado that one season. Which won't happen.

Sadly the more I think about it the more I agree. Lets look at the facts, who will warrant more money, Hossa or Franzen? Hossa by a fair way.

Hossa will roughly command about $7 mil whereas Franzen is probably around $4-5 mil. Personally I think $5 mil would be an overpayment because he seems to keep suffering injuries and he should be looking to accept about $4 mil. Being a RFA lets say Hudler signs a one year, possible two year deal at $2 million. He definitely deserves more and far more than Flip is getting, but his big pay day will come a little later.

What I’m getting at is that there’s no way we re-sign Hossa + Hudler and keep Flip. Franzen + Hudler and Flip is a slight possibility but that would probably require us to trade one or more of Kronwall/Stuart/Draper. One of Hossa and Franzen are gone, absolutely 100% factual. I just don’t see Holland trading Flip after signing him for 5 years a year before; I just don’t see it happening. I'm not worried about losing Hudler, I'm confident he'll stay. Hossa might be too expensive too keep and re-signing him might mean losing too many other assets. Realistically the best we can probably hope for is to keep Franzen and Hudler but big decisions loom.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Sadly the more I think about it the more I agree. Lets look at the facts, who will warrant more money, Hossa or Franzen? Hossa by a fair way.

Hossa will roughly command about $7 mil whereas Franzen is probably around $4-5 mil. Personally I think $5 mil would be an overpayment because he seems to keep suffering injuries and he should be looking to accept about $4 mil. Being a RFA lets say Hudler signs a one year, possible two year deal at $2 million. He definitely deserves more and far more than Flip is getting, but his big pay day will come a little later.

What I’m getting at is that there’s no way we re-sign Hossa + Hudler and keep Flip. Franzen + Hudler and Flip is a slight possibility but that would probably require us to trade one or more of Kronwall/Stuart/Draper. One of Hossa and Franzen are gone, absolutely 100% factual. I just don’t see Holland trading Flip after signing him for 5 years a year before; I just don’t see it happening. I'm not worried about losing Hudler, I'm confident he'll stay. Hossa might be too expensive too keep and re-signing him might mean losing too many other assets. Realistically the best we can probably hope for is to keep Franzen and Hudler but big decisions loom.

Hossa would sign a deal identical to Zetterberg's. He's hinted at it in interviews since the Z signing and frankly, he can't argue he's worth more to this team than the Conn winner. Well he can, but he can't do so very convincingly.

I can say this, however, if it comes down to Hudler or Filppula the Wings will take the player who's done more with the minutes he's been given. Sorry Fil... I don't want you to go dude, but Hudler is simply a more valuable asset.

Oh, and Franzen will be almost impossible to sign for under $5million. This is likely his last and only chance at a big payday. Hossa's had those since day one. One player is looking to get the bank he'll be living off of in 40 years and the other already has that set aside and is looking for a quality enviroment where he can thrive for the rest of his career. The simply facts of life favour a Hossa signing. But hell- I'm mostly basing my doubt about Mule's signing because his agent is an absolute jackel.

Edited February 8, 2009 by Drake_Marcus

[Yzerman191 37]

Too many people think they know both players' intentions. While it's apparent that Franzen is going to want to be paid, as this is his only shot, who says he'll command 5M? I mean, 3.5-4M cap hit over the rumored 5-8 year deal of Franzen's isn't exactly chopped liver. He's going to get paid, and I think he'll look at a number of factors: how great this organization is, how loyal the Red Wings are to their players, how much success he has enjoyed over his career, and the direction this team is headed in. Considering those things could easily lead him to the conclusion that it just might be worth 1M/yr less to stay.

Like Ken Holland said in a recent interview, he's going to take the best deal for his money. If that deal is Franzen for 3.5M/yr as opposed to Hossa seeking 7M/yr, he's going to take it. If it's Hossa for 6M/yr, Franzen for 4.5M/yr, he'll probably grab Hossa. The obvious observation is that signing Hossa makes Ken Holland's job over the Summer a LOT more difficult.

Just some quick calculations: we have 9.4M in cap space for next year. Signing Hossa for a very low estimate of 6M would leave us with 3.4M to sign Hudler, Leino, a backup goaltender, and a couple young forwards (say Helm and Kopecky). Even if Hudler signed for 2M, which would be very low, and Leino, Helm, and Kopecky signed for the league minimum, .5M, which would be extremely low, we'd be over the cap space. That's before bringing up a backup goalie. Thus, someone (Flip likely being the only one possible, as most of the other guys Holland would look at have a NTC) would have to be moved.