Franzen or Hudler

[Buppy 1,720]

Had to register just to chime in on this one.

Hudler has 47 goals and 68 assists in 228 games. Before this year it was 29g, 41a in 173 games. Don't start raising #26 up to the rafters just yet. Sure, he's having a pretty good season. But really, he's a better than average but not great offensive player with limited defensive skills.

Franzen has 71 goals, 47 assists in 267 games. Prior to this year; 49g, 35a in 221 games. Hardly all-star material there either. He's a quality goal scorer who can create his own shot, strong on the puck, ok on defense, but lacks vision, quickness, and plays selfish.

Frankly, I wouldn't break the bank on either at this point. With Franzen though, I see his ability to control the puck in traffic, move well with and without the puck, strength around the net, and shooting touch and I see someone with the potential to become great. With Hudler I see the potential to become...well, Hudler. So if I had to choose I'd have to go with the Mule. Furthermore, with Helm, Ritola, Leino, McGrath, and Pare in the system, I think Franzen is the more difficult to replace. Even though it might be said of both that they've broken out, I can't say either is truly 'proven' yet. So any signing is based on speculation.

But one caveat I have to add. The major barrier to keeping both is Hossa. Assuming the cap doesn't go up, and no big money is traded, resigning Hossa will be difficult at best. Signing him may require trading someone in order to sign either Huds or Mule, let alone both. As much as I like Hossa, I'm not sure I'd want to see the Wings mortgage the farm in an attempt to bring him back. If we don't, we can likely keep both Huds and Franzen, without losing anything else either. And I'd sure hate to see the Wings do what the Pens did and let a few players go hoping to sign Hossa, and then lose him anyway.

And a final note, just to make you all think I'm nuts... I'd take Filppula over either Franzen or Hudler in a heartbeat. He hasn't come out offensively yet, but he's a more complete player than either; and of the three I'd say he has the best chance to become another Pav or Hank.

[Ms_Hockey 0]

I gotta be honest, I'm a little confused as to why we're comparing Franzen to Hudler in the first place. In my opinion, these are two completely different players with two completely different styles of play.

Compared to Franzen, Hudler is tiny. That alone is one of the main reasons their style of play is so different. You can't try to compare a sneaky/fast(er) forward with a physical beast of a forward. The play is not going to match up. It would be different if you were trying to compare Franzen to Hossa or Hudler to Flip..

Apples to oranges, really.

Edited February 14, 2009 by Ms_Hockey

[Rivalred 630]

I gotta be honest, I'm a little confused as to why we're comparing Franzen to Hudler in the first place. In my opinion, these are two completely different players with two completely different styles of play.

Compared to Franzen, Hudler is tiny. That alone is one of the main reasons their style of play is so different. You can't try to compare a sneaky/fast(er) forward with a physical beast of a forward. The play is not going to match up. It would be different if you were trying to compare Franzen to Hossa or Hudler to Flip..

Apples to oranges, really.

You really do not remember Theo Fluery do you?

[chrisdetroit 189]

The fact this conversation is even taking place is a testament to the improvement Hudler has shown this year. However, in the playoffs, there's no doubt in my mind that Franzen is my choice. Playoffs, as a rule, aren't about power plays and a lot of Hudler's success has come on the power play.

I don't really think this will become a problem, though. With him being restricted, I can't imagine anyone signing him to a contract that Detroit wouldn't be willing to match. If they did, they'd have to give up too many draft picks. I'd go the arbitration route with him.

What are you talking about? Powerplays are very important in the playoffs. Last year the wings scored:

72 goals total in the playoffs

42 5 on 5

2 4 on 4

19 5 on 4

1 5 on 3

6 shorthanded

2 empty net

so % wise (take out the 2 empty netters)

63% Even Strength

29% Powerplay

9% Shorthanded

Compare that to last years regular season

252 Total Goals

149 5 on 5

6 4 on 4

64 5 on 4

14 5 on 3

3 4 on 3

5 shorties

9 empty nets

63% Even Strength

33% Powerplay

2% Shorthanded

Conclusion - the % of powerplay goals is almost the same in playoffs as regular season.

[chrisdetroit 189]

You really do not remember Theo Fluery do you?

Theo Fleury is a potential Hall of Famer. His name doesn't belong in this discussion.

[chrisdetroit 189]

have lurked on different Redwings forums for about 4 years, been a fan since 1991, but never took the time to sign up for an account. I have read lots of interesting things on these forums, but finally decided I would take the time to sign up and put my 2 cents in. The who is the better player argument between Hudler and Franzen is debatable. Has anyone considered looking a little deeper than that. Such as who is more replaceable/irreplaceable? Here is what I mean by this..... Do the wings have more players in the mold of Huds or Franzen? Which players skill sets/size/speed/chemistry/ piece to the team puzzle is more easily replaced. I like both players and wish we could keep both, but the reality is it probably won't happen. I think you have to look at it from the perspective of which piece to the puzzle is more easily replaced. It seems to me the Wings have a lot of young kids with the similar capabilities/size/ability/speed/vision (overall skill set) that are closer to Huds. How many young guys do we have down in GR with Franzens overall skill set? Huds very well may be the better player, but I truely believe that Franzen is more difficult to replace. True Power Forwards are hard to come by. That being said it sure would be cool if Kenny could perform a miracle. Just my 2 cents.

Not saying either could be immediately or easily replaced. I just think we have players more suited to replace Huds, than Franzen

Sorry, looks like this is being discussed in two different threads. Wasn't sure which one to post this in so I did both.

Exactly.

[therock48880 14]

What are you talking about? Powerplays are very important in the playoffs. Last year the wings scored:

72 goals total in the playoffs

42 5 on 5

2 4 on 4

19 5 on 4

1 5 on 3

6 shorthanded

2 empty net

so % wise (take out the 2 empty netters)

63% Even Strength

29% Powerplay

9% Shorthanded

Compare that to last years regular season

252 Total Goals

149 5 on 5

6 4 on 4

64 5 on 4

14 5 on 3

3 4 on 3

5 shorties

9 empty nets

63% Even Strength

33% Powerplay

2% Shorthanded

Conclusion - the % of powerplay goals is almost the same in playoffs as regular season.

This would be one of those situations where stats don't tell the whole picture. At the end of a playoff game that is close, when the officials swallow their whistles, I'd much rather have a large bodied, defensively responsible player like Franzen out there than Hudler. I would imagine Babcock agrees since Hudler is still only getting 13 minutes a game or so. Plus, it's not like Franzen is useless on the power play. His big body is very valuable down low.

Once again, I'm not trying to demean anything Hudler has done. I'm just saying if I could only choose one of them, I'd take Franzen. Judging by ice time, I'd say Wing's management would agree. In an ideal world, they'd both stay. Plus, what would I do with my "Feed the Mule" t-shirt if he were gone?

Personally, I could see Flip and Lilja being traded and Hudler going to arbitration and the Wings keeping both of them. Of the three of them (Hossa, Franzen, Hudler) I'd say Hossa and Hudler are the most likely to return. My reasoning is simply based on the last contract that Franzen's agent negotiated.

[Rivalred 630]

Theo Fleury is a potential Hall of Famer. His name doesn't belong in this discussion.

It does when a member here mentions a small player can not physical and etc.

[norrisnick 1]

This would be one of those situations where stats don't tell the whole picture. At the end of a playoff game that is close, when the officials swallow their whistles, I'd much rather have a large bodied, defensively responsible player like Franzen out there than Hudler. I would imagine Babcock agrees since Hudler is still only getting 13 minutes a game or so. Plus, it's not like Franzen is useless on the power play. His big body is very valuable down low.

Once again, I'm not trying to demean anything Hudler has done. I'm just saying if I could only choose one of them, I'd take Franzen. Judging by ice time, I'd say Wing's management would agree. In an ideal world, they'd both stay. Plus, what would I do with my "Feed the Mule" t-shirt if he were gone?

Personally, I could see Flip and Lilja being traded and Hudler going to arbitration and the Wings keeping both of them. Of the three of them (Hossa, Franzen, Hudler) I'd say Hossa and Hudler are the most likely to return. My reasoning is simply based on the last contract that Franzen's agent negotiated.

Game 5 against the Ducks and Game 5 against the Penguins were both lost because Franzen, with the puck on his forehand, couldn't clear the zone in the final minute of regulation.

[therock48880 14]

Game 5 against the Ducks and Game 5 against the Penguins were both lost because Franzen, with the puck on his forehand, couldn't clear the zone in the final minute of regulation.

I could argue that Hudler's double minor caused Detroit to lose game 5 against the Pens and his hooking penalty with 1:43 left in game 6 against the Pens almost cost them that game too. You could also blame Datsyuk for not clearing the puck at the end of game 6 against the Pens, etc...

The blame game can go on forever and ever. It's kinda pointless, imo.

I'm simply saying that if I have the choice between a talented big player and a talented small player, I'll take the big one. You guys want the small one. That's fine.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

I could argue that Hudler's double minor caused Detroit to lose game 5 against the Pens and his hooking penalty with 1:43 left in game 6 against the Pens almost cost them that game too. You could also blame Datsyuk for not clearing the puck at the end of game 6 against the Pens, etc...

The blame game can go on forever and ever. It's kinda pointless, imo.

I'm simply saying that if I have the choice between a talented big player and a talented small player, I'll take the big one. You guys want the small one. That's fine.

No. People want the one with more talent. Crazy idea, isn't it? Talent is not relative, and Hudler has much more of it at a much younger age.

[Dabura 12,207]

Anyone remember Mule's path of destruction last season? Yeah, neither do I. Come to think of it, what has this man ever done for the Detroit Red Wings?

Poor Jiri Hudler over here, he's practically been carrying this team on his back for the better part of three years!

[LeftWinger 4,975]

this is all crazy, Holland is going to re-sign the one that allows him to keep Hossa. So, whether they keep Hudler or Franzen or Filppula. Two out of the three, or one, it'll be whoever accepts the least amount of money, because Hossa is priority #1. Like it or not, one or two of these guys are gone before next season.

everyone has their argument and minutes to points ratios and blah blah blah. It all comes down to icing the best possible team under the salary cap. Hossa is staying. Someone (or a couple of guys) is going. I think its safe to say, this team will be intact throughout the playoffs so lets sit back and enjoy the best team in the world and start another 4000 threads about who is staying and going after July 1st.

[therock48880 14]

No. People want the one with more talent. Crazy idea, isn't it? Talent is not relative, and Hudler has much more of it at a much younger age.

No, he has more OFFENSIVE talent, no doubt. But once again, in the playoffs I'd prefer a big bodied, defensively sound player with soft hands that can score over a small bodied slightly better offensively talented player. Like Leftwinger says, though, none of the debate really matters. Like I've mentioned (and I think you have too), none of this matters. Hudler will either sign a deal or go to arbitration. I highly doubt that he's going anywhere.

[therock48880 14]

Anyone remember Mule's path of destruction last season? Yeah, neither do I. Come to think of it, what has this man ever done for the Detroit Red Wings?

Poor Jiri Hudler over here, he's practically been carrying this team on his back for the better part of three years!

I love your sarcasm and I agree with you.

What bugs me is, people are acting like he's the second coming of St. Louis and we've even seen Theo's name thrown around. If he was actually that talented of a player, wouldn't he be getting more than 13 1/2 minutes per game? Maybe posters on lgw know something Babcock doesn't. (sarcasm) Don't get me wrong, I love what he's done and I love his offensive potential, but he is NOT a complete player at this time. Has he improved defensively? Yes. Has his speed improved some? Yes. Can he still get better? Yes. But right now, I still think Franzen is a better all-around player.

[Ms_Hockey 0]

You really do not remember Theo Fluery do you?

I never said that a small player can't be physical. But Hudler isn't.. to say otherwise is nothing short of hilarious.

Edited February 15, 2009 by Ms_Hockey

[Wingaling 0]

Sign Hudler! thats the best choice in my brain for sure. He always give her out there and has a great chemistry with Hossa going, and the line of Hossa, Hudler and Flip is an amazing line 2 that should be kept. Trade Franzen (I do love him though) and Samuelsson, I though I read that they were signed and locked up, and I dont want to piss anyone off but Draper and Maltby should go as well, there great on the D side of things but lets move on, get some power forwards out there, Babcock as well as everyone else on this team will teach defensive mindedness to anyone who they get so lets do this!

[Dano33 41]

Sign Hudler! thats the best choice in my brain for sure. He always give her out there and has a great chemistry with Hossa going, and the line of Hossa, Hudler and Flip is an amazing line 2 that should be kept. Trade Franzen (I do love him though) and Samuelsson, I though I read that they were signed and locked up, and I dont want to piss anyone off but Draper and Maltby should go as well, there great on the D side of things but lets move on, get some power forwards out there, Babcock as well as everyone else on this team will teach defensive mindedness to anyone who they get so lets do this!

Trading Franzen is NOT an option. We may lose him at the end of the year, but we wont trade him. We wont get a player to replace him with his 1.1 mil salary, we will only get prospects or picks. Neither of those will help us win a cup this year, Franzen can.

[hossa8109 0]

When I created the thread, I wanted people to weigh in on the pros and cons of both players. With that being said, you're simply kidding yourselves if you think Franzen is the better choice. Yet again, the only thing that has been said to take Franzen over Hudler is his size. It would be one thing if that meant that Franzen actually used his size but he doesn't. Maybe you believe that Hudler is more injury prone because he is smaller which is obviously not the case. Hard to replace Franzen? for about 3 million or less we could get a true power forward that may actually put some fear into other teams.

[Dabura 12,207]

Yet again, the only thing that has been said to take Franzen over Hudler is his size.

Oh, come on. If we're going to play that game, I could say the only argument being made in Hudler's favor is some fluff about ice time.

Look, I'm a Franzen fan. I was one of the few LGWers saying he was worth keeping around last season when he was struggling. I'd take him over Hudler. Yes, size is a consideration -- however, saying, "You just prefer him because he's bigger!" is missing the point. I like what he brings to the team. I like his net presence, his hands, his speed, his "sandpaper." His big body allows him to translate his assets into results. Last year it helped him impose his will on the NHL. I don't like to live in the past, but that streak of his last season? One of the most spectacular "runs" I've ever seen from an NHLer. "Fluke"? Uh, maybe. Either way, I think it counts for something. (If nothing else, it was, for me, absurdly gratifying seeing that kind of dominance from a Red Wing. Come on, who didn't love Shanny in his early years with the Wings?)

This is not to say I'm a Hudler "hater" or what have you. I understand the arguments being made in his favor and I generally don't object to them, nor do I deny his obvious talent, overall value, and great potential. I just really like having a Mule on the team. And between Mule and Hudler, I feel it would be a bit harder to replace the former. I believe that is a legitimate consideration -- even if Hudler puts up better numbers with less ice time and has beaten the odds at every turn. So no, I don't agree with Eva's argument that any big-bodied winger is going to become a force when he's playing with Datsyuk and that Mule is therefore utterly replaceable, as if everything he's done as a Wing and everything he's contributed deserves nothing more than a "ho-hum! Bobby Lang coulda done that!"

Now, having said all this, I'm not blind to the salary issue. Which is to say, if re-signing Mule does not make sense financially, and if re-signing Hudler does, I won't cry myself to sleep. Hossa's a must. From there, well, we'll see. It's all we can do, just wait and see...

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

I would say Franzen >>>>>>> Hudler because of the major reasons....

April, May, June

[dawings1905 2]

I would say Franzen >>>>>>> Hudler because of the major reasons....

April, May, June

For some reason, most of the Huds over Franzen folks have disappeared into the woodwork. Weird. LOL

[drfnr14 0]

i want MULE. he is amazing in the playoffs! and well we all know det. is a shoe in for playoffs. so we want our top playoff performers. regular season is just our warm ups!

mule>all

[puertoricanWingsfan 5]

How about these reasons for re-signing Franzen:

20 goals in the last 25 playoff games, including 5 game winners

he's the top playoff scorer in the last two years, more than crosby, malkin, ovechkin, hossa, zetterberg and everyone else.

I'm convinced

[dawings1905 2]

When I created the thread, I wanted people to weigh in on the pros and cons of both players. With that being said, you're simply kidding yourselves if you think Franzen is the better choice. Yet again, the only thing that has been said to take Franzen over Hudler is his size. It would be one thing if that meant that Franzen actually used his size but he doesn't. Maybe you believe that Hudler is more injury prone because he is smaller which is obviously not the case. Hard to replace Franzen? for about 3 million or less we could get a true power forward that may actually put some fear into other teams.

Still kidding ourselves ehh? That's two years in a row the mule has been mr. clutch. NUFF SAID!! And your statement about getting a true power forward, looks so assinine now it's almost embarassing. So tell me, which power forward could we get that would put up 20 goals in his last 25 playoff games? Just curious.

Edited May 12, 2009 by dawings1905