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Z and D for the C

Filppula has the most Even Strength points after Z, D, Hossa

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Hes third in ESTOI total. He doesn't get brownie points because he plays less per game than Franzen, when Franzen has had 9 fewer games to put up Even strength points, and Zetterberg has played 5 fewer.

Sure he does.

Did Val rape your mom or something?

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:lol:

His PP time is also akin to playing the 1st 2 periods of a game on the PP. That's not what happens though. He averages 38 seconds per game on the PP. No one's going to put up numbers doing that.

Filppula is putting up ES points like a 1st liner, and he's getting the ES TOI of a 2nd liner. I don't know what stats you're looking at. I'm just glad Holland, Babcock and co. don't put as much stock in PPM as you do.

You're right. It is akin to playing the 1st 2 periods of a game on the PP. And at that rate, it'd be pretty sad to only see 1 point come out of it.

And no. Hes putting up ES points like a 2nd liner, getting ESTOI like a 1st liner, and producing at an ES rate of a 3rd liner.

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Sure he does.

Did Val rape your mom or something?

First of all, don't joke about rape. Second of all, are you Val's little lover or something? And third of all, no he doesn't get brownie points for playing more games and getting more ES minutes because of it. If Franzen played just 5 games and averaged 23 minutes a game, he'd be 1st in ESTOI, and he'd probably be 12th in points among forwards. What about logic is so hard for you to understand?

And in general, I have nothing against Flip. I just recognize through his on-ice performance and the stats that back it up that hes at best a borderline 2nd liner.

Edited by YoungGuns1340

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What about logic is so hard for you to understand?

Funny, because I'd ask you the same thing. It's interesting how we can both look at the same numbers and draw completely different conclusions. And as you may be able to tell, yes, I do in fact happen to like Flip quite a bit :P

I'll be defending Leino in the same way in a few years probably too.

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I love how people try to candy-coat Flip's stats. Fact is, like stated above more than once, is that he's 12th on the team in points (behind 3 defencemen I might add), and he only has 6 goals, which is 11th on the team. You can make any stat look decent if you twist it the right way, but one thing is pretty clear.....$3 million cap hit/year isn't what you should be getting for 6-21-27 totals, through 56 games. That's just not good enough. Those kind of stats should earn a salary of around $1.5 million MAX. The raise he got was based on him ramping up the numbers and playing a more prominent role on the team...and he hasn't been able to do it. And for those who blame it on him being on the 3rd line, he's there for a reason. Babcock tries him out on the 2nd line here and there, but overall, he just simply hasn't earned a spot on any line better than the 3rd. I wish he would...Flip seems like a good guy and he works hard out there, but there's definitely questions (in my mind) about what exactly this guy is going to become in the NHL. I say, as of right now, the Flip signing was a bit of a slip-up on Holland's part, and that might be a reason to move him and his big salary...

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Funny, because I'd ask you the same thing. It's interesting how we can both look at the same numbers and draw completely different conclusions. And as you may be able to tell, yes, I do in fact happen to like Flip quite a bit :P

I'll be defending Leino in the same way in a few years probably too.

The thing is, I'm not drawing conclusions. I'm doing math - a (so-called) objective science.

Let's break it down:

Fact: Filppula has played 759 minutes and 26 seconds at even strength. Which is to say, Filppula has had 759 minutes and 26 seconds of even strength time to score a point, which would naturally be an even strength point.

Fact: Filppula has scored 26 even strength points this year.

Fact: If you divide 759:26 minutes by 26 even strength points, the resulting number is 29.2. Or, to state the obvious, the amount of even strength minutes Filppula needs to record 1 even strength point.

Now lets apply this oh-so complicated mathematical equation to those other forwards that are considered to be our top 9 offensive forwards.

Even Strength Time on Ice / how many ES points they have = how many minutes it takes them to record an even strength point:

Pavel Datsyuk: 778:45 / 44 = 17.6

Marian Hossa: 768:56 / 36 = 21.3

Valterri Filppula: 759:26 / 26 = 29.2

Henrik Zetterberg: 739:22 / 29 = 25.4

Mikael Samuelsson: 689:24 / 18 = 38.3 ( :lol: )

Johan Franzen: 655:26 / 21 = 31.2

Daniel Cleary: 620:01 / 25 = 24.8

Jiri Hudler: 580:01 / 24 = 24.1

Tomas Holmstrom: 480:13 / 19 = 25.3

What does this tell us? That Filppula mildly outperforms Franzen at ES - which supports my other argument that Franzen is overrated by the way - and that Holland is damn lucky that Sammy only makes 1.2M.

Now, lets conceptualize this a bit, and take a look at how else we can use these measures. Here are some scenarios.

A) If Filppula saw the kind of ESTOI Samuelsson sees (5th among forwards), Filppula would have 23 ES points - making him 7th on the team in ES points among forwards.

B) If Filppula saw the kind of ESTOI that Franzen sees (6th among forwards), Filppula would have 22 ES points - still 7th on the team, but he would have 1 more point than Franzen, who has 21.

C) If Filppula saw the kind of ESTOI that Hudler has (8th among forwards), he would have 19 ES points - making him 8th on the team, with 6 fewer points than Hudler has in the same time.

D) If Filppula saw Datsyuk's ESTOI, he would still have 26 ES points, 18 fewer than what Datsyuk currently has.

E) If Datsyuk saw Filppula's ESTOI, he would have 43 ES points, 17 more than what Filppula currently has.

F) If Cleary saw Filppula's ESTOI, he would have 30 ES points, 4 more than what Filppula currently has.

G) If Hudler, saw Filppula's ESTOI, he would have 31 ES points, 5 more than what Filppula currently has.

H) If you reverse the ESTOI for Filppula and Hudler, Hudler has 31 ES points, and Filppula has 19 - a 12 point differential.

I hope this helps you to understand where I'm getting my logic. And just to underline my point, as I've apparently been crowned the King of Filppula bashers, I have nothing against Filppula. In fact, this is my biggest pet peeve about message boards - if you choose to argue for or against a player, you have become a biased fanboy or a spiteful basher, respectively. And I'd like to think that I am neither. In terms of Filppula's talent as a forward, I consider him to have more talent than Samuelsson, and I consider him to be on par with Holmstrom and Franzen. I don't think any of our top 9 players suck, but I do think they are invariably under and overrated. In this case, the statistics support the fact that the OPs statement is both fallacy and a pillar of Filppula's overrated nature.

Woot. Long Post. Aderall. Yay.

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The thing is, I'm not drawing conclusions. I'm doing math - a (so-called) objective science.

Let's break it down:

Fact: Filppula has played 759 minutes and 26 seconds at even strength. Which is to say, Filppula has had 759 minutes and 26 seconds of even strength time to score a point, which would naturally be an even strength point.

Fact: Filppula has scored 26 even strength points this year.

Fact: If you divide 759:26 minutes by 26 even strength points, the resulting number is 29.2. Or, to state the obvious, the amount of even strength minutes Filppula needs to record 1 even strength point.

Now lets apply this oh-so complicated mathematical equation to those other forwards that are considered to be our top 9 offensive forwards.

Even Strength Time on Ice / how many ES points they have = how many minutes it takes them to record an even strength point:

Pavel Datsyuk: 778:45 / 44 = 17.6

Marian Hossa: 768:56 / 36 = 21.3

Valterri Filppula: 759:26 / 26 = 29.2

Henrik Zetterberg: 739:22 / 29 = 25.4

Mikael Samuelsson: 689:24 / 18 = 38.3 ( :lol: )

Johan Franzen: 655:26 / 21 = 31.2

Daniel Cleary: 620:01 / 25 = 24.8

Jiri Hudler: 580:01 / 24 = 24.1

Tomas Holmstrom: 480:13 / 19 = 25.3

What does this tell us? That Filppula mildly outperforms Franzen at ES - which supports my other argument that Franzen is overrated by the way - and that Holland is damn lucky that Sammy only makes 1.2M.

Now, lets conceptualize this a bit, and take a look at how else we can use these measures. Here are some scenarios.

A) If Filppula saw the kind of ESTOI Samuelsson sees (5th among forwards), Filppula would have 23 ES points - making him 7th on the team in ES points among forwards.

B) If Filppula saw the kind of ESTOI that Franzen sees (6th among forwards), Filppula would have 22 ES points - still 7th on the team, but he would have 1 more point than Franzen, who has 21.

C) If Filppula saw the kind of ESTOI that Hudler has (8th among forwards), he would have 19 ES points - making him 8th on the team, with 6 fewer points than Hudler has in the same time.

D) If Filppula saw Datsyuk's ESTOI, he would still have 26 ES points, 18 fewer than what Datsyuk currently has.

E) If Datsyuk saw Filppula's ESTOI, he would have 43 ES points, 17 more than what Filppula currently has.

F) If Cleary saw Filppula's ESTOI, he would have 30 ES points, 4 more than what Filppula currently has.

G) If Hudler, saw Filppula's ESTOI, he would have 31 ES points, 5 more than what Filppula currently has.

H) If you reverse the ESTOI for Filppula and Hudler, Hudler has 31 ES points, and Filppula has 19 - a 12 point differential.

I hope this helps you to understand where I'm getting my logic. And just to underline my point, as I've apparently been crowned the King of Filppula bashers, I have nothing against Filppula. In fact, this is my biggest pet peeve about message boards - if you choose to argue for or against a player, you have become a biased fanboy or a spiteful basher, respectively. And I'd like to think that I am neither. In terms of Filppula's talent as a forward, I consider him to have more talent than Samuelsson, and I consider him to be on par with Holmstrom and Franzen. I don't think any of our top 9 players suck, but I do think they are invariably under and overrated. In this case, the statistics support the fact that the OPs statement is both fallacy and a pillar of Filppula's overrated nature.

Woot. Long Post. Aderall. Yay.

I appreciate the time you took to do all that, but I still don't agree. I just don't think it works like that. You can show me the ice time per point all you want, but what it comes down to is that people have the points they have with the ice time they have, and that's what really matters. Val gets almost no PP time. I'm not saying he'd put up astronomical points if he got a solid amount of it, but I am saying that if he got as much as even Franzen gets, I think he'd have enough points that people wouldn't be arguing his worth.

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I thought Fil's main responsibilities are on the defensive side of the puck. So why are we obsessing about his point totals?

I think it's great that Hudler's had a good season, but I think he'll be the first to tell you that it's easier for him to put points on the board when he's got guys like Filppula who can be the first one back on the defensive end.

If only we had a stat that would validly show a player's defensive efficacy, maybe Fil wouldn't have so many fans looking to get rid of him.

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I appreciate the time you took to do all that, but I still don't agree. I just don't think it works like that. You can show me the ice time per point all you want, but what it comes down to is that people have the points they have with the ice time they have, and that's what really matters. Val gets almost no PP time. I'm not saying he'd put up astronomical points if he got a solid amount of it, but I am saying that if he got as much as even Franzen gets, I think he'd have enough points that people wouldn't be arguing his worth.

But Filppula doesn't get powerplay ice time because hes not a good offensive player, which is a testament to the coaches belief that he isn't as good an offensive forward as 8-9 other forwards on our team. Think about that for a second. Babcock doesn't play him on the powerplay because the powerplay requires the best offensive forwards in your unit. That supports the notion that Filppula's ES points are there because hes playing more than almost everyone else, not because hes better than almost everyone else offensively.

Filppula only has 1 more ES point than Cleary. Hes also played 139.5 more minutes at even strength than Cleary. Can you honestly say that you don't think Cleary could put up 2 more ES points in 139.5 extra minutes? Similarly, Filppula has 2 more ES points than Hudler in 179.5 more ES minutes. . Can you honestly say that you don't think Hudler could put up at least 3 more ES points in 179.5 extra ES minutes? Every indication says they would, which would put Filppula 7th in ES points.

The fact of the matter is, almost every indication - be it on-ice perfromance, goals, points, shooting percentage, ice time, or any other indicator - supports the idea that Filppula is another player who falls into the grey area between the lesser 2nd line forwards and the better 3rd line forwards.

Also, Filppula played over 4.5 minutes on the PP against Minnesota. How many points? 0. Filppula played 2 minutes on PP against the Preds. How many points? 0. He played 1.5 against Edmonton? 0.

Also, here are some samples of Filppula's work on the PP when he gets decent time.

4:40 @ Minnesota - 0 pts

1:55 @ Nashville - 0 pts

2:33 @ St. Louis - 0 pts

1:31 @ Edmonton - 0 pts

3:37 @ Capitals - 1 point - his only point

3:11 @ Dallas - 0 points

2:15 @ Phoenix - 0 points

3:06 @ LA - 0 points

Hes not exactly wowing the Wings with his PP prowess out there when hes given the chance.

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I thought Fil's main responsibilities are on the defensive side of the puck. So why are we obsessing about his point totals?

I think it's great that Hudler's had a good season, but I think he'll be the first to tell you that it's easier for him to put points on the board when he's got guys like Filppula who can be the first one back on the defensive end.

If only we had a stat that would validly show a player's defensive efficacy, maybe Fil wouldn't have so many fans looking to get rid of him.

Because defense alone from a forward isn't worth $3M, especially on a team that has two of the three reigning Selke nominees.

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Filppula only has 1 more ES point than Cleary. Hes also played 139.5 more minutes at even strength than Cleary. Can you honestly say that you don't think Cleary could put up 2 more ES points in 139.5 extra minutes? Similarly, Filppula has 2 more ES points than Hudler in 179.5 more ES minutes. . Can you honestly say that you don't think Hudler could put up at least 3 more ES points in 179.5 extra ES minutes? Every indication says they would, which would put Filppula 7th in ES points.

They probably would. But they don't. And doesn't the fact that he has so much more ESTOI than all those guys indicate that he's better than them overall? I mean if PPTOI indicates better offensive ability, wouldn't ESTOI indicate better ability period?

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Apparently you don't understand the concept in the $3 mil per-year-signing. Holland and Babs didn't expect signing Flip for $3 mil and two days, two months or even 6 months later expecting him to magically becoming an all-star, young, defensive forward.

They are paying him $3 mil per-year and expecting him to become a $5 - $6 million (or more) player later on this team... This is how Holland can make amazing deals to keep quality players and continue on with this team's legacy by staying competitive.

With that said, Babcock and Co. think highly of Flip, he's not going anywhere. You can argue that we *might* be overpaying Flip right now (though I don't agree since Flip is a defensive forward and putting up points), perhaps next year or this post season Flip will be the ultimate bargain. All you LGW's GM advisers on the boards want to make a knee-jerk reaction, which would ruin a potential great deal.

If we gave up on Zetterberg and Datsyuk as easily as LGW members are giving up on Flip, we'd be an awful team! Hell, we'd make Colorado look like an all-star team.

Why would you want to ruin this organization and the brilliant system that Holland built?

Listen...first of all, I DO understand the concept of a $3 mil/yr signing...don't belittle me. Without elaborating much, since I already made my point in my post, and don't intend to change my opinion to try to match yours....you can say what you want about Filppula, but I just don't see the same potential in this guy as you obviously do. That's my opinion...

I had the same opinion even before Holland made the 5-year extension happen. I don't argue that he's a decent player, but I still believe the money he's making right now is an overpayment, and it might remain an overpayment for a good portion of his 5-year extension. Just because I don't think Flip isn't worth the money he's signed for, doesn't mean I'm giving up on him....I'm suggesting that he'd be good trade bait, because obviously there are others on the team that can contribute more (ie; Hossa, Franzen, etc) in the next few years, and with a salary like Flip's on the books, we will have to move someone...why not Flip?

Again, I'm entitled to my opinion, and you to yours. Trust me when I tell you that I understand the concept of signings, potential, development, etc....but just because you think one thing doesn't mean everyone else's opinion is wrong and would ruin the team if it happened that way.

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Remind me - why does Dan Cleary get a pass in all this discussion? His numbers are very similar to Fils, as is his cap hit.

Quite simple, really; because Cleary makes 200k less, and the underlying tenet of the argument is that someone may have to be traded to maintain the salary cap if Hossa is kept; Cleary has a no-trade-clause in his contract and less trade value than Filppula.

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I don't care how many people hate Filppula and think he sucks, but I do know this, Filppula and Leino will be playing on the top line within the next 8 years.

Nobody hates Flip that I've seen, just that if we have to lose somebody, his has SEEMINGLY stopped developing and so would be a good choice. He's still a solid player.

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I don't care how many people hate Filppula and think he sucks, but I do know this, Filppula and Leino will be playing on the top line within the next 8 years.

Ha ha, that may be true, but at least in Flip's case that "top line" you speak of won't be in Detroit.

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For the people who think he completely sucks.

He's played most of the year on the third line and how that he's playing with hossa on the second he is producing. For forwards, the big three and franzen have more ES time on ice per game. Flip has 26 ES points to franzen's 21.

Take it for what you will.

The intelligent posters on here didn't say he sucks. Just that Hudler's the better 24 year old player for this team to retain. Filppula's the most replaceable of the two given the prospects in the pipeline, he's the least important to this team's depth this season. He's the less promising player based on both player's play this season and each season before it.

Sorry man, but it's a fact. I don't want to lose Filppula any more than you do but his 3 million $ contract is an albatross around the neck of this team. He wouldn't have gotten that salary if Hossa had signed first.

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Listen...first of all, I DO understand the concept of a $3 mil/yr signing...don't belittle me. Without elaborating much, since I already made my point in my post, and don't intend to change my opinion to try to match yours....you can say what you want about Filppula, but I just don't see the same potential in this guy as you obviously do. That's my opinion...

I had the same opinion even before Holland made the 5-year extension happen. I don't argue that he's a decent player, but I still believe the money he's making right now is an overpayment, and it might remain an overpayment for a good portion of his 5-year extension. Just because I don't think Flip isn't worth the money he's signed for, doesn't mean I'm giving up on him....I'm suggesting that he'd be good trade bait, because obviously there are others on the team that can contribute more (ie; Hossa, Franzen, etc) in the next few years, and with a salary like Flip's on the books, we will have to move someone...why not Flip?

Again, I'm entitled to my opinion, and you to yours. Trust me when I tell you that I understand the concept of signings, potential, development, etc....but just because you think one thing doesn't mean everyone else's opinion is wrong and would ruin the team if it happened that way.

I think his point was that if Ken Holland and the Wings organization say you have some major potential, there is probably a million percent chance you have some major potential.

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Listen...first of all, I DO understand the concept of a $3 mil/yr signing...don't belittle me. Without elaborating much, since I already made my point in my post, and don't intend to change my opinion to try to match yours....you can say what you want about Filppula, but I just don't see the same potential in this guy as you obviously do. That's my opinion...

I had the same opinion even before Holland made the 5-year extension happen. I don't argue that he's a decent player, but I still believe the money he's making right now is an overpayment, and it might remain an overpayment for a good portion of his 5-year extension. Just because I don't think Flip isn't worth the money he's signed for, doesn't mean I'm giving up on him....I'm suggesting that he'd be good trade bait, because obviously there are others on the team that can contribute more (ie; Hossa, Franzen, etc) in the next few years, and with a salary like Flip's on the books, we will have to move someone...why not Flip?

Again, I'm entitled to my opinion, and you to yours. Trust me when I tell you that I understand the concept of signings, potential, development, etc....but just because you think one thing doesn't mean everyone else's opinion is wrong and would ruin the team if it happened that way.

Yes. The $3M deal was based on the assumption that Filppula would, in time, be worth the money. However, that was prior to 1) The possibility of Hossa taking some 6M to stay here, or even the retention of Hossa in general, becoming more and more feasible 2) The continuation of Franzen's goal scoring prowess, that would bump him up on the value scale; and 3) the continual improvement of Jiri Hudler.

Simply put, Filppula's contract was based on his potential at the time when Hudler, Hossa, and Franzen were not distinct competitors for Filppula's roster spot, ice time, and cap space.

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Quite simple, really; because Cleary makes 200k less, and the underlying tenet of the argument is that someone may have to be traded to maintain the salary cap if Hossa is kept; Cleary has a no-trade-clause in his contract and less trade value than Filppula.

Exactly. And long those same lines of reasoning, thats why you don't see more "get rid of Draper and Maltby" threads. Could their cap space and roster spot be better utilized? Absolutely. But Draper has an NTC, and in general neither will be traded out of loyalty and tenure.

Its not so much a free pass, as it is a "f*** it - we're stuck with them" attitude.

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