Ericsson/Downey Up; Helm/Leino to GR

[Carman 387]

Tomas Kopecky is a saint sir. Gordie would have lost his spot to him.

[uk_redwing 495]

Laraque just destroyed Shelley the other night. You didn't see it GMR?

He called Laraque a bad enforcer, not a bad fighter.

Laraque is 2nd only to Brashear in terms of fighting skills, but as an enforcer Laraque sucks balls. He thinks his job is to fight and nothing else. Thats why hes gone from Edmonton to Phoenix to the Pens to Montreal in successive seasons.

[Carman 387]

He called Laraque a bad enforcer, not a bad fighter.

Laraque is 2nd only to Brashear in terms of fighting skills, but as an enforcer Laraque sucks balls. He thinks his job is to fight and nothing else. Thats why hes gone from Edmonton to Phoenix to the Pens to Montreal in successive seasons.

Don Cherry, is that you?

[Frozen-Man 144]

He called Laraque a bad enforcer, not a bad fighter.

Laraque is 2nd only to Brashear in terms of fighting skills, but as an enforcer Laraque sucks balls. He thinks his job is to fight and nothing else. Thats why hes gone from Edmonton to Phoenix to the Pens to Montreal in successive seasons.

You are correct he says he is a bad enforcer (as opposed to a bad fighter), however, the only rationale for why he is a bad enforcer was "He hardly ever fights." There was no statement that he was a bad enforcer for another reason merely that he hardly ever fights. I don't think that there are many who given the choice between Downey and Laraque as the enforcer on your team would pick Downey. That was the point originally, that what you get with Downey as your enforcer and Laraque as your enforcer are drastically different.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

He called Laraque a bad enforcer, not a bad fighter.

Laraque is 2nd only to Brashear in terms of fighting skills, but as an enforcer Laraque sucks balls. He thinks his job is to fight and nothing else. Thats why hes gone from Edmonton to Phoenix to the Pens to Montreal in successive seasons.

I was going to answer Doggy's post before I read yours. You are spot on.

Shelley is not a better fighter than Laraque, but he's a much better enforcer. He fights more often and sticks up for his teammates more often. That's what an enforcer is supposed to do. Granted it's not all Laraque's fault, since he has a harder time finding takers. However, Joey Kocur was probably the most feared fighter ever, and yet he still had a ton of fights every year, so there's a counter argument for a counter argument here.

I've just never seen Laraque as anything more than a strong wrester who manhandles people, but fights infrequently.

[Frozen-Man 144]

I was going to answer Doggy's post before I read yours. You are spot on.

Shelley is not a better fighter than Laraque, but he's a much better enforcer. He fights more often and sticks up for his teammates more often. That's what an enforcer is supposed to do. Granted it's not all Laraque's fault, since he has a harder time finding takers. However, Joey Kocur was probably the most feared fighter ever, and yet he still had a ton of fights every year, so there's a counter argument for a counter argument here.

I've just never seen Laraque as anything more than a strong wrester who manhandles people, but fights infrequently.

And again both statements go back to my original one that both Shelley and Laraque are leaps and bounds better as enforcers than Downey.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

You are correct he says he is a bad enforcer (as opposed to a bad fighter), however, the only rationale for why he is a bad enforcer was "He hardly ever fights." There was no statement that he was a bad enforcer for another reason merely that he hardly ever fights. I don't think that there are many who given the choice between Downey and Laraque as the enforcer on your team would pick Downey. That was the point originally, that what you get with Downey as your enforcer and Laraque as your enforcer are drastically different.

What more do you want as a reason?

I'd much rather have Shelley than Laraque, for the reasons that I outlined in my previous post above. If the guy has a short fight card, I could care less how good a fighter he is.

An enforcer exists to stick up for his teammates and to throw weight around when they have to. It's not all about showcasing how great a fighter you are, since hockey is a team sport. That's why a guy like say, Clark Gillies, was a phenomenal fighter, but I'd never go so far as to call him a great enforcer due to his low number of fights.

As for Downey, I haven't seen enough of him this year in the NHL to judge him as a fighter or enforcer.

[Doggy 130]

I was going to answer Doggy's post before I read yours. You are spot on.

Shelley is not a better fighter than Laraque, but he's a much better enforcer. He fights more often and sticks up for his teammates more often. That's what an enforcer is supposed to do. Granted it's not all Laraque's fault, since he has a harder time finding takers. However, Joey Kocur was probably the most feared fighter ever, and yet he still had a ton of fights every year, so there's a counter argument for a counter argument here.

I've just never seen Laraque as anything more than a strong wrester who manhandles people, but fights infrequently.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Laugh all you want, but Laraque's fights are about as exciting as watching a 6 hour baseball marathon.

I wonder how he would fare in a boxing ring where he couldn't just grab and wrestle his opponent with his enormous strength?

[Frozen-Man 144]

What more do you want as a reason?

I'd much rather have Shelley than Laraque, for the reasons that I outlined in my previous post above. If the guy has a short fight card, I could care less how good a fighter he is.

An enforcer exists to stick up for his teammates and to throw weight around when they have to. It's not all about showcasing how great a fighter you are, since hockey is a team sport. That's why a guy like say, Clark Gillies, was a phenomenal fighter, but I'd never go so far as to call him a great enforcer due to his low number of fights.

As for Downey, I haven't seen enough of him this year in the NHL to judge him as a fighter or enforcer.

I think we moved beyond what I was originally talking about. . . I have no quibble about whether Shelley or Laraque is better - my original post way back was that Downey does not provide what either of them provide as enforcers. To me it is not a question of if this team needs an enforcer but does what we presently have on our roster fill the role and give the team the benefits that a true enforcer (Shelley or Laraque) provides. I think Downey does not fill that role and thus the roster spot is better utilized elsewhere.

Edit: I agree I haven't seen Downey enough this year to judge his fighting or enforcing presently - my feelings are based upon past years (and the few GR fights I've seen video of this year) and the fact that Holland and Co. hasn't thought they were impressive enough to bring up (or keep up longer) so that we could see him more.

Edited March 3, 2009 by Frozen-Man

[Doggy 130]

Laugh all you want, but Laraque's fights are about as exciting as watching a 6 hour baseball marathon.

I wonder how he would fare in a boxing ring where he couldn't just grab and wrestle his opponent with his enormous strength?

Ironic how you criticise Laraque for doing exactly what Lilja does.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Ironic how you criticise Laraque for doing exactly what Lilja does.

Right, so that punch that dropped Souray and those punches that hit poor Patrick Sharp in the face were a result of Lilja's grappling too much?

I suppose Jared Boll turtled against Lija because he was afraid to be wrestled further, instead of being afraid of being punched?

[Chelios57 31]

:banana: Downey!!!

[LidsFan 68]

I am excited that Downey will get to play since he is one of my favorite players, but I am mad that Leino and Helm had to be sent down. I just wish that there was a way that the two of them could of stayed and that two of the teams underachievers could of been sent down instead.

[Doggy 130]

Right, so that punch that dropped Souray and those punches that hit poor Patrick Sharp in the face were a result of Lilja's grappling too much?

As much as Shelley was overcome by all Laraque's grappling.

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[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

It's reading threads like these that make me sad thinking about where hockeys going. To whoever mentioned Kopecky having Downeys roster spot, he has it because of A.) He cant go on waivers and the Wings are afraid he'll end up like Quincey and B.) Hossa.

To those who say Downey is a boxer on skates. You havent watched him and are misinformed BIG TIME. Maybe you missed the Dallas game last season where Downey made a wonderful breakaway pass to Franzen, where he scored. He isnt a boxer on skates, he's a hockey player. Someone mentioned when did Downey win us a game? Never, when did he get the team going so that they won the game? San Jose when he pounded McLaren, Colorado when he pounded Lappy, Anaheim when he pounded Parros. You dont think it had a huge effect, but just read what the players said afterwards, all I'll say.

To those who said they'd rather have talent on the 4th line, and thats how it should be. Wow. You must not have caught much hockey even in Detroit the past 3-4 years. Every team has grit on the 4th line, sure they got talent, but thats not why there on that line or the hockey team. Maybe you forgot Drake from last year? or maybe you believe Malts and Drapes are playing for there offensive prowess. Grind Line, Crash Line, what you want to call it, they were catalysts for there teams winning the Cups, there are more examples, but they didnt have names. I'm sure someone will quote me and say 'YEAH BUT DOWNEY DIDNT PLAY AGAINST PITTSBURGHH SO HE DIDNT DO NOTHING" Team Toughness. People love to mention it on here, and Downey, McCarty, Drake all instilled it, Cleary, Homer and Franzen fed off it and hit more, and then Zetterberg and Datsyuk starting throwing the body, and became quite good at it. We dont have that catalyst this year. Dont get me wrong, I love Darren Helm, and you cant discredit Leinos talent and production, believe me, I'm not saying that. I'm saying, they have spots to battle for in the playoffs, and the one with the best twoway game, probably gets in, cuz thats what Mike loves.

As far as the news, wooooo, grit and size! Hopefully Ericsson shows Lils how it's done.

[LeftWinger 5,153]

Laugh all you want, but Laraque's fights are about as exciting as watching a 6 hour baseball marathon.

I wonder how he would fare in a boxing ring where he couldn't just grab and wrestle his opponent with his enormous strength?

uh, have you've watched boxing in the last 20 years? That is all they do is grab and hug and once in a while throw a punch! But I get your point, I'd rather see some fists going than hugging and wrestling too!

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

As much as Shelley was overcome by all Laraque's grappling.

That video proves my point. I wish Laraque would open up like that more often. Then I'd like him more. Instead, that fight is a rarity of how he usually fights.

Bottom line is that he fights not to lose more than he fights to win. That's why he hasn't had a bad loss in a long time. At the first sign of trouble, he grapples.

[BlueMonk 102]

Downey dressed for 56 games last year and the Red Wings won the President's Trophy. This year, his roster spot - or, more accurately, the spot that a rotating platoon of Downey, Drake and McCarty filled last season - has been replaced by Marian Hossa. That's right; Marian Freakin' Hossa. And they're probably not going to win the President's Trophy this season.

Think about that.

And every time you think the Wings are making a mistake when they aren't icing the team with the most pure talent, recite that fact back to yourself.

Every time you think you can't afford dressing a guy who isn't a great skater, can't put the puck in the net and has terrible hands, recite that fact back to yourself.

Every time you think dressing a guy who will only skate 5 or 6 minutes is a waste of a roster spot and will ruin the ability to roll 4 lines... recite that fact back to yourself.

[ManLuv4Clears 7]

It's reading threads like these that make me sad thinking about where hockeys going. To whoever mentioned Kopecky having Downeys roster spot, he has it because of A.) He cant go on waivers and the Wings are afraid he'll end up like Quincey and B.) Hossa.

To those who say Downey is a boxer on skates. You havent watched him and are misinformed BIG TIME. Maybe you missed the Dallas game last season where Downey made a wonderful breakaway pass to Franzen, where he scored. He isnt a boxer on skates, he's a hockey player. Someone mentioned when did Downey win us a game? Never, when did he get the team going so that they won the game? San Jose when he pounded McLaren, Colorado when he pounded Lappy, Anaheim when he pounded Parros. You dont think it had a huge effect, but just read what the players said afterwards, all I'll say.

To those who said they'd rather have talent on the 4th line, and thats how it should be. Wow. You must not have caught much hockey even in Detroit the past 3-4 years. Every team has grit on the 4th line, sure they got talent, but thats not why there on that line or the hockey team. Maybe you forgot Drake from last year? or maybe you believe Malts and Drapes are playing for there offensive prowess. Grind Line, Crash Line, what you want to call it, they were catalysts for there teams winning the Cups, there are more examples, but they didnt have names. I'm sure someone will quote me and say 'YEAH BUT DOWNEY DIDNT PLAY AGAINST PITTSBURGHH SO HE DIDNT DO NOTHING" Team Toughness. People love to mention it on here, and Downey, McCarty, Drake all instilled it, Cleary, Homer and Franzen fed off it and hit more, and then Zetterberg and Datsyuk starting throwing the body, and became quite good at it. We dont have that catalyst this year. Dont get me wrong, I love Darren Helm, and you cant discredit Leinos talent and production, believe me, I'm not saying that. I'm saying, they have spots to battle for in the playoffs, and the one with the best twoway game, probably gets in, cuz thats what Mike loves.

As far as the news, wooooo, grit and size! Hopefully Ericsson shows Lils how it's done.

Awesome post sir!

[xBrave_Heartx 0]

I wouldn't mind BGL, he's better then nothing.. But if i had my choice he'd be down the list aways.. He's not a horrible enforcer. He does a good job of keeping the other teams at bay. But he's over priced for having a glass groin.

Idealy i'd like to have a guy like BJ Crombeen in the line up full time.. He's skilled, he crashes and bangs and fights... and have like a 13th forward being a solid enforcer.

[Doggy 130]

Downey dressed for 56 games last year and the Red Wings won the President's Trophy. This year, his roster spot - or, more accurately, the spot that a rotating platoon of Downey, Drake and McCarty filled last season - has been replaced by Marian Hossa. That's right; Marian Freakin' Hossa. And they're probably not going to win the President's Trophy this season.

Think about that.

And every time you think the Wings are making a mistake when they aren't icing the team with the most pure talent, recite that fact back to yourself.

Every time you think you can't afford dressing a guy who isn't a great skater, can't put the puck in the net and has terrible hands, recite that fact back to yourself.

Every time you think dressing a guy who will only skate 5 or 6 minutes is a waste of a roster spot and will ruin the ability to roll 4 lines... recite that fact back to yourself.

So, you're saying Downey playing for GR is the main reason for San Jose's record breaking season? Because the Wings have more points right now than they did at the same point last season.

I like Downey, I'm rapt he's he has been called up. But you're logic is flawed.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

What the hell else does Helm have to do to stay on this team?

[BlueMonk 102]

So, you're saying Downey playing for GR is the main reason for San Jose's record breaking season? Because the Wings have more points right now than they did at the same point last season.

I like Downey, I'm rapt he's he has been called up. But you're logic is flawed.

You're being coy. You know that's not what I'm saying. Read my post again, you'll find the logic.

[xBrave_Heartx 0]

What the hell else does Helm have to do to stay on this team?

It's not that he hasn't earned his spot. He has.

MY GUESS, is that Detroit still wants him to blossom. and with the confidence boost of playing in Detroit for a nice stint. Detroit is just hoping it will carry over to GR and result in more offensive production..

--

Leino on the other hand, He's very offensive. but his skating needs work and provides no grit and not the best defensive forward. If i had to make a bet. Leino wont be on the starting roster come game 1 of the playoffs.