Thoughts on Downey

[ENFORCER 0]

Sorry for lying to you Esteef this is my last post until Monday.

Please go back and read the entire thread, when did I say you could or couldn't enjoy anything, when did I say fighting shouldn't be tolerated or enjoyed. I didn't my take the whole time is that enforcers don't stop anything.

You after cleverly creating a new login, which no one would ever expect mmuahahhahahahaah, are here yet again trying to incite a reaction out of me, you got it the last time, not any more.

You need to be banned via your ip address because you sir are the very defintion of a troll.

Have a great weekend, Opie!

[lets go pavel 2]

Downey was in the lineup in the last game against Colorado, he received a cheap shot, what did he stop?

The Avs game before that he wasn't in the lineup how many cheap shots occurred. See you have to prove intent, you have to prove that a player intended to hurt some one but didn't because Downey was in the game. All I have to do is point to a game in which an enforcer was dressed and some one took a cheap shot. I have done that, there fore it proves that having an enforcer in the game does not prevent anything. I don't have to prove intent because, the intent to injure is there in the malicious action.

That is the belief that I have, that if an enforcer is in the game and another player two hands some one across the face they stopped nothing, much like not having an enforcer stopped nothing nor created nothing.

No, all you have shown is that there is at least one case where an enforcer didn't prevent a cheap shot. No enforcer can prevent ALL cheap shots, and no one is arguing to the contrary. You haven't proven that an enforcer NEVER prevents a cheap shot, and you can't. To do that, you would have to prove that every time there is intent to injure the player followed through with that intent, regardless of whether there was an enforcer present, which is just as impossible a task as the proof you're asking of me. Which brings us back to this ... it can't be proven one way or the other. You don't think they prevent anything, that's your belief. Me, I think they do deter some dirty plays.

I also think the value of a player like Downey goes beyond simply policing dirty plays. He brings energy and excitement. He pumps up the fans, which in turn can pump up a team. When he does fight, whether in retribution or not, it adds energy to the team. Perhaps most importantly, the players like having him there and have said as much. They like the security of having him watch their back. Whether this sense of security is real or imagined is irrelevant, it still can affect their play.

So the real question, at least in my mind, is whether it is worth it to sacrifice a player with 4th-line skill for a player of lesser skill who brings these other things. To me, the 4th-line skill player brings the same things that the other 11 skaters do, only in lesser quantities, and his loss can easily be compensated for. Not so for Downey.

[esteef 2,679]

No, all you have shown is that there is at least one case where an enforcer didn't prevent a cheap shot. No enforcer can prevent ALL cheap shots, and no one is arguing to the contrary. You haven't proven that an enforcer NEVER prevents a cheap shot, and you can't. To do that, you would have to prove that every time there is intent to injure the player followed through with that intent, regardless of whether there was an enforcer present, which is just as impossible a task as the proof you're asking of me. Which brings us back to this ... it can't be proven one way or the other. You don't think they prevent anything, that's your belief. Me, I think they do deter some dirty plays.

I also think the value of a player like Downey goes beyond simply policing dirty plays. He brings energy and excitement. He pumps up the fans, which in turn can pump up a team. When he does fight, whether in retribution or not, it adds energy to the team. Perhaps most importantly, the players like having him there and have said as much. They like the security of having him watch their back. Whether this sense of security is real or imagined is irrelevant, it still can affect their play.

So the real question, at least in my mind, is whether it is worth it to sacrifice a player with 4th-line skill for a player of lesser skill who brings these other things. To me, the 4th-line skill player brings the same things that the other 11 skaters do, only in lesser quantities, and his loss can easily be compensated for. Not so for Downey.

Exactly.

esteef

[motorcitykid 42]

If we didn't have so many options already I think he'd definitely break into the lineup more often.

I'm curious to what the above comment means. I've yet to see anybody explain exactly why we need him in the lineup.

Downey's a goofy dude, and a joker. I've chatted with him a few times, albeit briefly, in GR. But he's not really a heavyweight. And since we play such a European style, he doesn't warrant taking up a roster spot for any more than a game here or there, no matter how many people wish it. It ain't going to happen.

Edited March 6, 2009 by motorcitykid

[motorcitykid 42]

Wow, I was a longtime reader on this board before finally joining. You have flat out gotten people to quit posting here from what I have seen from your 'dead horse beating'. It's obvious you're against rough hockey and that's okay, but why keep trying to convince the LGW world against it?

Flat out got people to quit posting here? Example?

I must disagree. Opie's been here awhile, and usually contributes an interesting point of view. Nice to continually derail the thread though.

Edited March 6, 2009 by motorcitykid

[jvxp 0]

I love this video. Love it.

1:10.

me too.

[jvxp 0]

Oh for God's sake would you folks please get off the McCarty train! He is washed up, useless, can't fight anymore, can't score (could he ever) and is USELESS! Don't forget USELESS! Him being hurt all year PREVENTED Downey from being here in his place! IF he were healthy he would've been sent down to GRR and Downey would have been the 13th forward! McCarty = Done! Now lets drop the McCarty ideas ok?

Well said!! :clap:

[ManLuv4Clears 7]

One point I want to add that a few people have mentioned, is that having an enforcer in the line up makes the team tougher as a whole. Cheap shots will still happen here and there, but I feel less frequently. Right now when there's any scrum after the whistle or a small cheap shot without Downey in the line up, the team tends to just shy away from any altercation. When guys like Downey are in the line up, it seams the team as a whole will mix it up, hit more, and stand up for themselves. It doesn't hurt this team to have a little grind. Right now the Wings have more skill than arguably any team in the NHL, but I'm in the belief that it helps to have a little parity as well to help win.

Plus guys like Downey are good for team motivation, like "Rudy" if you will. Everyone knows he's a s***ty hockey player, but he goes out, will take a punch if he has to and work his ass off to support the team and them win. Players feed off that hunger.

[Z and D for the C 712]

I think Downey is entirely worthless and given that our team is so incredibly deep he isn't worth a roster spot.

[Mors 201]

I'm curious to what the above comment means. I've yet to see anybody explain exactly why we need him in the lineup.

Downey's a goofy dude, and a joker. I've chatted with him a few times, albeit briefly, in GR. But he's not really a heavyweight. And since we play such a European style, he doesn't warrant taking up a roster spot for any more than a game here or there, no matter how many people wish it. It ain't going to happen.

I'm not sure why you singled out my statement, but it seems pretty clear what I said. If it weren't for the availability of Helm & Leino, Downey would stand a better shot at playing. Why do we need him? Because occasionally it's nice to have a guy in the lineup over 200 lbs who actually plays like he's over 200 lbs. I don't think it's a mystery why the Joe is shamefully silent during most of the home games, but the second Downey hits the ice and starts throwing the body around people are instantly on their feet. Some people actually enjoy seeing some hits to along with all that finesse.

It amazes me that after all the highlight reels of Kronwall and Drake wrecking people in the playoffs last year, and the amount of enthusiasm people had for this, that the concept of having a guy in the lineup who HITS still needs to be explained.

And yes, I understand that Downey isn't a fast skater and he's not going to score goals. I didn't say OMG DOWNEY MUST PLAY. I said he'd have a better shot if we didn't already have more capable skill guys waiting, which is the way this team wants to play it.

We'll find out in the playoffs how important that missing physical aspect is, it might work out and it might not.

Edited March 7, 2009 by Mors

[Carman 387]

The main reason to have Downey in the line-up isn't to help the red wings win games, but to add much more excitement and entertainment for the fans. So I fully support Downey in the line-up for most regular season games. But it would not make sense for him to be on the ideal playoff game line-up.

[motorcitykid 42]

I'm not sure why you singled out my statement, but it seems pretty clear what I said. If it weren't for the availability of Helm & Leino, Downey would stand a better shot at playing. Why do we need him? Because occasionally it's nice to have a guy in the lineup over 200 lbs who actually plays like he's over 200 lbs. I don't think it's a mystery why the Joe is shamefully silent during most of the home games, but the second Downey hits the ice and starts throwing the body around people are instantly on their feet. Some people actually enjoy seeing some hits to along with all that finesse.

It amazes me that after all the highlight reels of Kronwall and Drake wrecking people in the playoffs last year, and the amount of enthusiasm people had for this, that the concept of having a guy in the lineup who HITS still needs to be explained.

And yes, I understand that Downey isn't a fast skater and he's not going to score goals. I didn't say OMG DOWNEY MUST PLAY. I said he'd have a better shot if we didn't already have more capable skill guys waiting, which is the way this team wants to play it.

We'll find out in the playoffs how important that missing physical aspect is, it might work out and it might not.

I guess we will see come playoff time. I'm of the mind that if we, *gulp* don't repeat, it will be because the Sharks, for example, played the better game at the right time. I don't see physical play deciding our fate with the group of guys we've got, who will be dressed.

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

I love Downey, we always seem to do well with him in the lineup.

[Mors 201]

I guess we will see come playoff time. I'm of the mind that if we, *gulp* don't repeat, it will be because the Sharks, for example, played the better game at the right time. I don't see physical play deciding our fate with the group of guys we've got, who will be dressed.

Ok? You sure showed me with your eye roll emote? You're totally right, Drake didn't leave any kind of hole in the lineup, and Kronwall has been stepping up at the blueline regularly. Right back at ya

I'm particularly fond of this one, but who needs guys like this around anyway...

Edited March 7, 2009 by Mors

[norrisnick 1]

My thoughts are this. If Downey sees a single shift in the playoffs something catastrophic has happened. The less we see of Syndrome the better off we are.

[Mors 201]

My thoughts are this. If Downey sees a single shift in the playoffs something catastrophic has happened. The less we see of Syndrome the better off we are.

Funny, I feel the same way about Kopecky.

Alright that was too obvious, don't get excited

[Hockeymom1960 5,107]

The main reason to have Downey in the line-up isn't to help the red wings win games, but to add much more excitement and entertainment for the fans. So I fully support Downey in the line-up for most regular season games. But it would not make sense for him to be on the ideal playoff game line-up.

You have hit the nail on the head. Most people on this board just do not get it.

[norrisnick 1]

The main reason to have Downey in the line-up isn't to help the red wings win games, but to add much more excitement and entertainment for the fans. So I fully support Downey in the line-up for most regular season games. But it would not make sense for him to be on the ideal playoff game line-up.

So the league should just create an extra roster spot for the designated fighter for every team. And rather than wasting room on the bench and various shifts here or there they can brawl during intermission rather than having the 5 year olds play hockey, or weiner races, or score-o competions or whatever else teams do during intermission prior to the zambonis hitting the ice. Fight fans get their fights. Hockey fans get their hockey. Everybody wins.

[Carman 387]

So the league should just create an extra roster spot for the designated fighter for every team. And rather than wasting room on the bench and various shifts here or there they can brawl during intermission rather than having the 5 year olds play hockey, or weiner races, or score-o competions or whatever else teams do during intermission prior to the zambonis hitting the ice. Fight fans get their fights. Hockey fans get their hockey. Everybody wins.

Sad how the game is evolving, eh?

[norrisnick 1]

Sad how the game is evolving, eh?

Yes and no. Yes, in the sense that the league's "tough" guys fill out a dance card during warm ups. No, in the sense that the quality of hockey and skill on display on any given night is only improving and that all coaches still know what is important come playoff times and the silliness goes away.

[Mors 201]

So the league should just create an extra roster spot for the designated fighter for every team. And rather than wasting room on the bench and various shifts here or there they can brawl during intermission rather than having the 5 year olds play hockey, or weiner races, or score-o competions or whatever else teams do during intermission prior to the zambonis hitting the ice. Fight fans get their fights. Hockey fans get their hockey. Everybody wins.

Well...they did make the shoot-out a permanent fixture, and that's basically a sideshow skills competition

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

One point I want to add that a few people have mentioned, is that having an enforcer in the line up makes the team tougher as a whole. Cheap shots will still happen here and there, but I feel less frequently. Right now when there's any scrum after the whistle or a small cheap shot without Downey in the line up, the team tends to just shy away from any altercation. When guys like Downey are in the line up, it seams the team as a whole will mix it up, hit more, and stand up for themselves. It doesn't hurt this team to have a little grind. Right now the Wings have more skill than arguably any team in the NHL, but I'm in the belief that it helps to have a little parity as well to help win.

Plus guys like Downey are good for team motivation, like "Rudy" if you will. Everyone knows he's a s***ty hockey player, but he goes out, will take a punch if he has to and work his ass off to support the team and them win. Players feed off that hunger.

That's what I always say, but very few people here understand that, even though it was a big part of the team's eventual growth last year when it came to physicality.

Because the Wings have had soft teams for many seasons now, the fans have embraced this team's softness, not realizing that it hasn't resulted in anything but an early playoff defeat in seasons where we didn't dress a tough guy during the regular season and playoffs.

It's like trying to argue with people that the grass is green. They just don't get it and have no argument for why the majority of the NHL dresses enforcers, if they happen to be so useless.

I know people here always ***** that it isn't so cut and dry, but I don't care. The majority of LGW (with a few exceptions) is anti-enforcer. I'm tired of them saying that they're not, and then writing pages about how useless Downey is and about how obsolete enforcers are the new NHL (even though every other team has one), and about how fighters are all useless goons. If fans here don't understand that part of the game at all, then theyr'e not knowledgeable hockey fans.

I'm tired of people bashing enforcers, and then writing a quick disclaimer about they're not anti-enforcer. Damn hypocrites.

Edited March 7, 2009 by GMRwings1983

[esteef 2,679]

Plus guys like Downey are good for team motivation, like "Rudy" if you will. Everyone knows he's a s***ty hockey player, but he goes out, will take a punch if he has to and work his ass off to support the team and them win. Players feed off that hunger.

Great point, unfortunately there's no "stat" to "back it up".

esteef

[norrisnick 1]

That's what I always say, but very few people here understand that, even though it was a big part of the team's eventual growth last year when it came to physicality.

Because the Wings have had soft teams for many seasons now, the fans have embraced this team's softness, not realizing that it hasn't resulted in anything but an early playoff defeat in seasons where we didn't dress a tough guy during the regular season and playoffs.

It's like trying to argue with people that the grass is green. They just don't get it and have no argument for why the majority of the NHL dresses enforcers, if they happen to be so useless.

I know people here always ***** that it isn't so cut and dry, but I don't care. The majority of LGW (with a few exceptions) is anti-enforcer. I'm tired of them saying that they're not, and then writing pages about how useless Downey is and about how obsolete enforcers are the new NHL (even though every other team has one), and about how fighters are all useless goons. If fans here don't understand that part of the game at all, then theyr'e not knowledgeable hockey fans.

I'm tired of people bashing enforcers, and then writing a quick disclaimer about they're not anti-enforcer. Damn hypocrites.

I'm not anti-enforcer/fighter. I'm pro-hockey player. The ability to play hockey should never take a back seat to fists and a willingness to get punched in the face.

There is a reason fighting and fighters take a seat come playoff time. NHL coaches know that when push comes to shove and the games matter, you can't risk tapping guys on the shoulder that wouldn't be any less useless if they didn't bother taking a stick out on the ice with them.

Which boils it all down to this, if they aren't good enough to play in the playoffs why bother with them during the regular season? It's a waste of time for everyone involved.

[therock48880 14]

For those who are anti-downey and think that enforcers have no impact on the game, can you explain to me why Babcock says that Downey is here to "Keep the flies off?" I thought he was referring to teams being physical with the stars but that must not be the case since he's useless. So, please, feel free to explain that comment.

Also, I've read in this thread that fighting is dying in hockey. Really? Fighting is up 25% this year compared to last year, which was up dramatically from the previous year.

Anyone watch the San Jose-Montreal game a week or so ago? The Sharks came out on fire and dominated the early portion of the first period. Laraque and Shelley had a fight in which BGL destroyed Shelley. The crowd went nuts, the players responded and Montreal scored 3 straight. The ENTIRE momentum of that game changed due to the fight. Yet, fighters are worthless, right?