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YoungGuns1340

Forget the deadline, the OFF SEASON is where its at?

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Raffy's no-trade clause would be a problem UNsolved.

Players with NTCs get traded every single year. The only thing a NTC seems to insure is that you don't get traded to a team you don't want to play for. But if a team wants to get rid of you, very rarely does a NTC stop it from happening.

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Players with NTCs get traded every single year. The only thing a NTC seems to insure is that you don't get traded to a team you don't want to play for. But if a team wants to get rid of you, very rarely does a NTC stop it from happening.

This.

Stuart and Rafalski both have market-reasonable contracts, too, so it wouldn't be difficult to come up with a lengthy list of interested teams to present to either of the guys. It's not like their only options would be terrible destinations.

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Players I'd dump:

Samuelsson

Downey

Hossa

Chelios

Kopecky

McCarty

Player I'd make available for trade:

Hudler

Filppula

Stuart

Lilja

Meech

You would dump Hossa your crazy,!!!!!!!!!!!

Maltby

Lebda

Players I'd resign

Franzen

Conklin

Sorry, this team can't afford a star #1 goaltender. The only chance the Wings have of acquiring one is when Luongo is an UFA in 2010 and Lidstrom's salary comes off the books. That's their only window, and who knows what Luongo will do by then. They're just going to have to go with Osgood/Conklin duo again next year.

As for Rafalski, yeah, he's been horrible defensively this year, but I'd rather keep him than trade him for $6 million worth of spare parts from another team. They won't get useful value for him. He played well last year, and throughout most of his career, so I think it would be better just to see what he does next season.

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Players I'd dump:

Samuelsson

Downey

Hossa

Chelios

Kopecky

McCarty

Player I'd make available for trade:

Hudler

Filppula

Stuart

Lilja

Meech

Maltby

Lebda

Players I'd resign

Franzen

Conklin

Sorry, this team can't afford a star #1 goaltender. The only chance the Wings have of acquiring one is when Luongo is an UFA in 2010 and Lidstrom's salary comes off the books. That's their only window, and who knows what Luongo will do by then. They're just going to have to go with Osgood/Conklin duo again next year.

As for Rafalski, yeah, he's been horrible defensively this year, but I'd rather keep him than trade him for $6 million worth of spare parts from another team. They won't get useful value for him. He played well last year, and throughout most of his career, so I think it would be better just to see what he does next season.

You would dump Hossa your crazy,!!!!!!!!!!!

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I think it's both Todd leaving and the Stanley Cup hangover. The Red Wings dominate when they play games that they actually care about. They play poorly when they play teams that they don't give a s*** about. At least, that seems like the trend.

I suspect they bounce back from tonights loss with a dominating next game playing the entire 60 minutes. I bet the Yotes are thinking "Oh s***" after this game tonight. They know Detroit will play with fire under their ass on Tuesday.

Exactly. And that is why I'm not too concerned about their chances in the playoffs. When they are focus, they are unbeatable. And that goes for Chris Osgood also. How do you get excited about playing Nashville or Columbus in March when you already have the #2 spot locked up.

This happens this time of the year quite often. The teams that have their spots locked up get beat by the teams that are fighting for playoff positions.

In the last 5 games

Detroit 3-2

San Jose 1-3-1

Chicago 2-2-1

Boston 1-3-1

Washington 1-3-1

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09/10 roster, ~50 million dollars

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Holmstrom

??? - Filppula - ???

Cleary - Helm - ???

Maltby - Draper - Abdelkader

Lidstrom - Rafalski

Kronwall - Stuart

Lilja - Ericsson

Meech - Lebda

Osgood

Howard

That leaves ~6 million dollars to sign the following players:

Hossa

Franzen

Hudler

Leino

Samuelsson

Kopecky

It would be quite a task to win the Cup with the above line-up. Detroit would have to pray for no injuries because they would have no room to tinker with the roster at the trade deadline. Holland, therefore, must make a trade (or multiple trades) before next season or accept the fact that his team is not going to be at the upper echelon of the league.

Players who could be traded

Forwards:

Filppula (3M cap hit/4 years left)

Let's face it, he's been less than stellar offensively this year and he's at least 5th on the defensive depth chart for next year's potential roster. Three million dollars is a bit high for his play right now and his skillset is redundant when comparing him to the rest of the Red Wings.

Cleary (2.8M cap hit/4 years left)

I don't have any problems with Cleary, but I think it's possible he could be traded. At 2.8M, he doesn't really provide the type of offense to be a mainstay on either of the top two lines. Samuelsson and Holmstrom both outproduce him at a cheaper price. Cleary is better than Holmstrom defensively, for sure, but Cleary can't reproduce Holmstrom's PP output. As for Samuelsson/Cleary, if it's a matter of saving 1.2m-1.5m, give me Samuelsson every time with the current cap problems Detroit has.

I've heard some people mention Maltby and Holmstrom, but they're both UFAs after next season and it's extremely unlikely that Holland would trade either of them.

Defensemen:

Rafalski (6M cap hit/3 years left)

He's been lousy defensively, for sure, but do point out which of our defensemen have been defensive stalwarts this year. On top of that, he's the 4th scorer on the team behind Datsyuk, Hossa, and Zetterberg. We already have to suffer Samuelsson playing the point on the PP, I don't really want to see what happens when we get rid of Rafalski, too. I'd say it's possible that he's traded, but very unlikely.

Stuart (3.75M cap hit/3 years left)

He had a decent playoffs, though I think Kronwall's run helped to overrate Stuart. If Ericsson can play more minutes next season (and by all indication, Babcock seems to think so), Stuart is too expensive for a 4th defenseman.

Lebda (.65M cap hit/1 year left)

Useless, especially with Meech and the emergence of Ericsson. As of right now, I doubt that I'll see Lebda in a Red Wings jersey next October.

Meech (.5M cap hit/1 year left - RFA)

He's cheaper than Lebda and Detroit could use him as a reserve next year (or as a 6th, depending on if any of the above are traded). He'll be here if Lebda isn't.

Goalies:

Osgood (~1.4M cap hit/2 years left)

Honestly, I don't see the point of keeping him around after this season. I'd rather see them take a chance on Howard and there are cheaper back-ups available. That said, I find it hard to believe Holland would get rid of him a second time.

Howard (~.7M cap hit/2 years)

Howard's expendable with the emergence of Larsson and McCollum. I don't foresee Detroit getting a whole lot out of Howard in a trade though. I'd rather see him get a chance to run with the team next year.

My argument is that trading Filppula and Stuart would give us the best return and best salary relief.

As for who I'd want from our own FA list:

1. Franzen

2. Leino

3. Samuelsson

4. Kopecky

5. Hudler

6. Hossa

Keep in mind this is obviously not a list based on my favorites or on skill. Hossa is last simply because re-signing him is not feasible. Hudler is second-to-last because I don't think he's going to be worth the money spent and I think we could get a nice return for him by trading his RFA rights. Kopecky won't get much of a raise; he's an effective role player; he still has some untapped offensive potential. Samuelsson is cheap and effective for what he does (aside from playing the point on the PP, but I digress). Leino could be locked into a cheaper, long term contract and he's got great potential. Finally, Franzen brings too many different skills to the table to let him walk. On that list, he's the second best defensive player (to Hossa), the biggest and most physical player, tied for second best offensive player (tied with Hudler [though Franzen is much more capable of doing things by himself], second to Hossa), and he's also the perfect replacement for Holmstrom on the PP.

If Ralfalski has been lousy defensively, how could he be +12. You are only focusing on his miscues and ignoring the godd plays he makes defnsively.

There is no way in hell that Rafalski, Stuart or Cleary are going to be traded.

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If Ralfalski has been lousy defensively, how could he be +12. You are only focusing on his miscues and ignoring the godd plays he makes defnsively.

There is no way in hell that Rafalski, Stuart or Cleary are going to be traded.

By being good offensively. +/- is not a defensive statistic.

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Guest Shoreline
By being good offensively. +/- is not a defensive statistic.

What is, then?

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Exactly. And that is why I'm not too concerned about their chances in the playoffs. When they are focus, they are unbeatable. And that goes for Chris Osgood also. How do you get excited about playing Nashville or Columbus in March when you already have the #2 spot locked up.

This happens this time of the year quite often. The teams that have their spots locked up get beat by the teams that are fighting for playoff positions.

In the last 5 games

Detroit 3-2

San Jose 1-3-1

Chicago 2-2-1

Boston 1-3-1

Washington 1-3-1

I think it is meaningless to compare the Red Wings to other top teams because every top team is having a rough period. However, you should be excited for every game. Remember last season? Except for the injured Feb, we were excited pretty much every game because we wanted a lot, I would say the most.

This season is not. It does not matter what seed we are taking right now. We have one more win than the Sharks but they have 2 games on the hand; like this statement is redundant.

You said we will be fine in the playoff because we have a success when we play against good teams. Yeah that's the truth. However, don't forget we are idealically finish the season in the West by number one or two, which means we will face the 7th or 8th teams, which the Wings players may not consider too seriously.

I have been watching the Wings games this season pretty much all but the goalie situation now Osgood can be very hurt in the playoff. Remember the Oilers few seasons ago? They had only Rolloson and Legace was deadly awful. There is no assumption that cannot happen this season or not. What I am viewing now is this season's Osgood is very similar to that time, at least Legace had a better stats in that season than Osgood this season.

Our offenses are always on hot and defenses are becoming better I think. According to the average of the NHL, we have the best offenses in the league then, the defenses also have to step up and the part of defense is a goalie.

If we cannot score 4 or 5 goals a game when Osgood is in the net, we cannot win. Right? Then, isn't that pretty much a conclusion?

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Players with NTCs get traded every single year. The only thing a NTC seems to insure is that you don't get traded to a team you don't want to play for. But if a team wants to get rid of you, very rarely does a NTC stop it from happening.

Those players waive their NTC. You can't just trade a player with a NTC without their permission first... unless you send them to the minors, they clear waivers, and a team picks them up half-price.

Stuart isn't going to want to go anywhere anytime soon due to the drama it caused with his family to even come here. Raffy and Cleary both have no desire to play for other teams... so it's not like it's as easy as it sounds. You'd have to get these guys to agree to being traded, which I don't think would be all that easy to do.

EDIT: The one way I could even see this being possible is if the players aren't protected from NTC buyouts.. but I'm fairly certain that they are.

Edited by Ms_Hockey

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Those players waive their NTC. You can't just trade a player with a NTC without their permission first... unless you send them to the minors, they clear waivers, and a team picks them up half-price.

Stuart isn't going to want to go anywhere anytime soon due to the drama it caused with his family to even come here. Raffy and Cleary both have no desire to play for other teams... so it's not like it's as easy as it sounds. You'd have to get these guys to agree to being traded, which I don't think would be all that easy to do.

EDIT: The one way I could even see this being possible is if the players aren't protected from NTC buyouts.. but I'm fairly certain that they are.

Exactly my point. It's not as if random NTC holders waive their clauses and THEN the team decides to trade them. The GM approaches the player saying they've got a trade lined up, will you waive the clause? And so and and so forth.

If a GM tells a player he doesn't want him anymore and he's looking to trade him, more often than not the player doesn't want to stick around. I sure wouldn't.

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If Ralfalski has been lousy defensively, how could he be +12. You are only focusing on his miscues and ignoring the godd plays he makes defnsively.

There is no way in hell that Rafalski, Stuart or Cleary are going to be traded.

Hopefully Holland doesn't think like you, otherwise Detroit is looking at some serious roster problems next year.

I was of the minority opinion that Stuart shouldn't have been signed last year and it's obvious that his 3.75M contract is going to hinder Detroit for the 09/10 season. He had his moments in the playoffs, but he's been about as effective as Lilja this season and Lilja plays for one-third of the cost.

I'd rather have Franzen or Hudler over Stuart, especially when Stuart's replacement would be Ericsson. Of course, I'd also rather have Hudler or Franzen over Filppula as well.

Hudler-Franzen-Leino

Kronwall-Ericsson

looks much better to me than

Cleary-Filppula-Leino

Kronwall-Stuart

Edited by nkuehnl

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Those players waive their NTC. You can't just trade a player with a NTC without their permission first... unless you send them to the minors, they clear waivers, and a team picks them up half-price.

Stuart isn't going to want to go anywhere anytime soon due to the drama it caused with his family to even come here. Raffy and Cleary both have no desire to play for other teams... so it's not like it's as easy as it sounds. You'd have to get these guys to agree to being traded, which I don't think would be all that easy to do.

EDIT: The one way I could even see this being possible is if the players aren't protected from NTC buyouts.. but I'm fairly certain that they are.

Its pretty feasible, really. You hear it all the time. Kubina, Kaberle...I'm blanking on some other names, but players are frequently asked by their GMs to prepare a list of teams they would consider waiving their NTC to be moved to.

The trouble with Rafalski is, his home is here. I think Stuart would be more likely to accept a trade to a California team - Anaheim might be that destination this time - as he has connections there. But Rafalski would be tough. I think the only place he'd consider would be going back to the comfort of New Jersey, but you never know. Fortunately, New Jersey might find Rafalski to be a palatable acquisition, as they really aren't deep on the back-end when it comes to offensive defenseman. In fact, thats really their weak link. Oduya's leading the pack with 28 points? Give me a break. And to be honest, Rafalski hasn't really been a fan favorite since being here.

Looking at NJ's cap space, its actually incredibly realistic that they would take Rafalski back. They only have 40M tied up next season, with the only major pay increase being for Zajac and Oduya. All their other guys will either leave, retire, or take paycuts, and those are mostly secondary or depth players - not the core guys. The Wings would likely have to take on some salary in return though.

Ultimately, if the Wings could talk Rafalski into accepting a trade to NJ, and Anaheim or LA wanted Stuart back, we'd be in business. Like I said, NJ could desperately use an offensive Dman and veterans on the back end, and have the space to acquire him. Similarly, Anaheim only has 2 Dmen tied up for next year - Pronger and Whitney - and Stuart might look appealing if they lose Niedermayer and Beauchemin. If Blake retires for San Jose, or Gauthier leaves LA and O'Donnell becomes the 7th guy, then both teams might take a look at Stuart, although I'd think it'd be least likely for SJ and most likely for Anaheim to take him.

1. Rafalski(6) for Martin(4.83) or White(3) + a pick or prospect - I'm guessing NJ will offer one of these guys to balance out the salary. My guess would be White.

2. Stuart to Anaheim (possibly LA) for a 2nd rounder and a C-level prospect, or a 4th round pick and a B-level prospect. But even then we might have to let him go for nothing more than a pick since teams know our cap situation. White could then effectively replace Stuart at the #4 position.

That gives the Wings 6.75M in extra cap space - a few extra hundred K might put us into play for Bouwmeester, or we could simply ride the year out with Lidstrom, Kronwall, Ericsson, Lilja, White, and Lebda/Meech.

Edited by YoungGuns1340

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Hopefully Holland doesn't think like you, otherwise Detroit is looking at some serious roster problems next year.

I was of the minority opinion that Stuart shouldn't have been signed last year and it's obvious that his 3.75M contract is going to hinder Detroit for the 09/10 season. He had his moments in the playoffs, but he's been about as effective as Lilja this season and Lilja plays for one-third of the cost.

I'd rather have Franzen or Hudler over Stuart, especially when Stuart's replacement would be Ericsson. Of course, I'd also rather have Hudler or Franzen over Filppula as well.

Hudler-Franzen-Leino

Kronwall-Ericsson

looks much better to me than

Cleary-Filppula-Leino

Kronwall-Stuart

I'm with you - I can't say I DIDN'T want Stuart re-signed, but I was definitely apathetic. But that had more to do with the thought that we would be heading into the new season with exactly the same roster that we had that won the cup. That was a mistake from the beginning in my eyes, and ultimately its had the expected outcome - lack of desire, motivation, and work ethic. I would've like to have seen the Wings either bring up Ericsson full time last year and let Stuart go or replace him with a guy who wasn't satiated by a recent cup victory - Commodore would've been nice, and then trade Filppula when he was still an RFA and add a gritty 4tt liner or a 3rd line energy guy just to shake up the roster a bit.

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I'm with you - I can't say I DIDN'T want Stuart re-signed, but I was definitely apathetic. But that had more to do with the thought that we would be heading into the new season with exactly the same roster that we had that won the cup. That was a mistake from the beginning in my eyes, and ultimately its had the expected outcome - lack of desire, motivation, and work ethic. I would've like to have seen the Wings either bring up Ericsson full time last year and let Stuart go or replace him with a guy who wasn't satiated by a recent cup victory - Commodore would've been nice, and then trade Filppula when he was still an RFA and add a gritty 4tt liner or a 3rd line energy guy just to shake up the roster a bit.

That's a silly way of managing after winning a cup. Just trade off key cogs because you think the rest of the team would lack motivation? I can't see how Ericsson up full time and trading Filppula prior to the season would fix any problems.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but it's rarely constructive.

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Not if the other defensemen and players don't find that determination again.

I also shudder to think what Bouwmeester might sign for after watching Brian Campbell get 8m/yr.

Harding or Lehtonen are hard to gauge too, big question marks.

I agree Harding and Lehtonen are big question marks, but is it more of a risk to take on Lehtonen or Harding at the cost of Filppula+....or is it more of a risk to lose better forwards by retaining Filppula and going into next season with a goaltending tandem of Osgood and Howard, or Osgood and an established career back-up a la Conklin, who we likely won't be able to afford after his season.

If you ask me, taking a chance on Lehton and Harding is a well-calculated risk. Lehtonen was able to pull out 34 wins when Atlanta was a respectable team. And as terrible as they are, hes still retained a respectable .912 career save percentage. Considering how weak Atlanta's defense has been historically, its also fair to say that his performance isn't inflated or insulated by poor percentage shots.

Harding is more problematic, as he has played in an insular system for his entire short career, yet his stats aren't merely good as a result. Although he only has 2 wins this season, in 16 games this season - 12 full games, 4 partial - he has a 2.20 GAA and a .930 save percentage. Even despite Minnesota's system, those are great numbers. Also, his on-ice performance - statistics aside - supports the notion that hes a good goaltender.

Now, I'm not claiming that either is sure to be a great goaltender when wearing a Red Wings uniform - far from it. But the possibility remains. More so than with Osgood who'll be another year older and Howard who has yet to wow this organization despite being just a year younger than Lehtonen and the same age as Howard? Yes, you can make the claim that Howard hasn't had his chance to really get his feet wet at the NHL level, but you can also say that he hasn't made management give him that chance. Even in the midst of our goaltending woes, the Wings brass is still using valuable cap space to call up forwards as opposed to Howard.

The bottom line is, if Harding and Lehtonen DID come with some sort of guarantee, then the Wings wouldn't be able to re-sign them, and they likely would have to offer more than Filppula+ or Hudler+ to get him. The fact that Harding and Lehtonen DO come with at least some risk makes them all the more practical targets.

Think of it this way: The Wings are going to have to trade SOMEONE off their roster if they want to make key re-signings. And if they DO make a cap-clearing trade, they'll likely want picks, prospects, or entry level players in return. Are those picks, prospects, or entry-level players going to be any more guaranteed or low-risk than Harding or Lehtonen?

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Considering if we're going to keep Hossa and Franzen it'll take way more than losing Filppula and considering Lehtonen is going to make at least 4m/yr I'd rather keep Filppula.

Holland says there's a possibility to keep both big guys because he has to say it. Realisitically, there's no way to do it considering what it would take and how this club operates.

Holland has always said if he's going to spend big money on a goalie it's going to be on a top 5 guy. Harding and Lehtonen are far from that and 4m/yr for either guy on this team would be a big mistake.

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has anyone stopped to think that certain players have assumed the worse themselves?

just maybe some of our roster players realise that Kenny signing either/both Mule and Hos

means they are gone next year. This may be a factor into certain players performance over the past few games since the deadline week. Hudler has 1 pt in the last 8 games, Sammy hasn't trubled the stat sheet in 10 games, Flip has 3 pts in the last 8 games and Maltby 2 pts in 10, but I doubt he's tradeable. The 3 guys that we hear mention in trade talk have all slumped off lately, coincidence or not they aren't themselves just recently. This in turn is

gunna hurt us down the stretch and in the postseason if its not sorted quickly. Lets be honest here, this could be our 3rd line come the playoffs and we'll need them playing to their potential, its good enough for most teams 2nd line!!

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That's a silly way of managing after winning a cup. Just trade off key cogs because you think the rest of the team would lack motivation? I can't see how Ericsson up full time and trading Filppula prior to the season would fix any problems.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but it's rarely constructive.

Is it? Is hunger and motivation not the ultimate difference where cup wins are concerned? I would think the difference between the 2005, 2006 playoffs and the 2007, 2008 playoffs would've spoken to that quite clearly.

And Stuart may have been a key cog in the playoffs, but Fernando Pisani was also the greatest thing since sliced bread for the Oilers too and Francois Beauchemin looked like Chris Pronger version 2.0 in '07. Historically, various veteran players have raised their game for 20-25 games in the springtime to a level that isn't reproducible during the potentially monotonous regular season, and the salary cap age, its always a danger to reward it. Especially to a player whos known role on this team was to be a #4 defenseman - hardly "key", considered how we managed without him to reach that post-season point.

Similarly with Filppula, he was re-signed at a time when Helm, Hudler, and Franzen had all "broken through", so to speak, in various ways, and the Wings had already signed Hossa. Not only was he not a key forward to begin with, but even less so at the time he was re-signed - a time when Holland knew full well that Franzen, Hudler, and Zetterberg were in line for raises on the sub 5M they were collectively earning at the time.

Replacing Filppula and Stuart with new blood would've hardly been "key" losses, last off-season as much as now.

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Think of it this way: The Wings are going to have to trade SOMEONE off their roster if they want to make key re-signings. And if they DO make a cap-clearing trade, they'll likely want picks, prospects, or entry level players in return. Are those picks, prospects, or entry-level players going to be any more guaranteed or low-risk than Harding or Lehtonen?

If the Wings are going to be able to retain Marian Hossa and also keep some of their other free agents, they will have to make at least one cap space clearing trade. The two players who are the most likely to be centerpieces for trades during the offseason are:

C Valtteri Filppula

D Brad Stuart

Filppula is tradeable because he does not have a NTC and is viewed as a young player who is not living up to his contract. Stuart has an NTC, but past that his performance this season has been atrocious.

Franzen is probably not retainable because the Wings simply can't afford to keep him after signing Hossa. Same story for Conklin, who will sign with a club looking for goaltending, and paying for it.

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Considering if we're going to keep Hossa and Franzen it'll take way more than losing Filppula and considering Lehtonen is going to make at least 4m/yr I'd rather keep Filppula.

Holland says there's a possibility to keep both big guys because he has to say it. Realisitically, there's no way to do it considering what it would take and how this club operates.

Holland has always said if he's going to spend big money on a goalie it's going to be on a top 5 guy. Harding and Lehtonen are far from that and 4m/yr for either guy on this team would be a big mistake.

Who said either would get 4M? They're RFAs, and considering arbitration is based primarily on 1) stats and 2) your role with the team, then neither guy has both. Harding is in a secondary role, and Lehtonen doesn't have great stats. 3M is much more reasonable for both on a 1 or 2 year contract.

At any rate, you're overlooking the need for goaltending at this point. Holland's claim is now only applicable retrospectively. Yes, he won't pay a lot of money for a great goalie when he has great team defense and a decent goalie, but now he has neither, and this has been established for almost an entire season. And what are the prospects for the next year? Osgood, Rafalski, and Lidstrom all another year older at at least 36 years of age, and Kronwall and Howard who have failed to live up to expectations of really "taking over."

As for your assessment of what Holland says, I agree - we won't keep both Hossa and Franzen. But I'm well past that already. I'm saying in addition to letting one of Hossa or Franzen go - likely the more expensive Hossa - the Wings would be well-served to trade Filppula.

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