Steve Mason -- A Bit Overrated

[Datsyerberger 279]

good thing you're opinion doesn't count.

Good thing "you are" opinion doesn't count, either.. or any of us here, for that matter. It's just a discussion.

[Doggy 130]

DYB, I can't remember if I've ever disagreed with you. Your a great poster and IMO pretty much always spot on. But your assessment of these goalies seems extremely skewed to me.

As Marcus said, you apply explanations and excuses for Mason's numbers that don't seem to apply to anyone else. Hitchcock uses a defensive style? So what are Minnesota, Boston, Florida, Anaheim and Nashville? The '85 Oilers?

Minnesota - I shouldn't even need to explain this. Along with NJ they have for years been the most defensive (and boring) team in the league and every single goalie to be lucky enough to enter their crease has had good numbers.

Boston - great offense, no doubt but they're built around their D. Besides, who wouldn't enjoy sitting behind Chara and Wideman. I know Fernandez does:

M. Fernandez - 14-6-3, 2.39GAA, .915SV%, 1 SO

Florida - their GM is Jacques Martin. Nathan Horton is their highest paid forward. Their D is considerably better than their offense. Their backup goalie is Craig Anderson. I think we can all agree he's no Vezina candidate... but Vokoun is?? I must be missing something:

Anderson - 13-6-5, 2.72GAA, .925SV%, 3 SO

Vokoun - 23-22-6, 2.49GAA, .925SV%, 6 SO

Anaheim - a team that won their Cup from their blueline. A blueline that is fundamentally the same today. Their top 2 Dmen are Pronger and Niedermayer. The BJ's top 2 is Commodore and Backman. I'm not sure how Giguere being horrible this season makes Hiller the next Sawchuk. No way in hell has he outperformed Mason, the suggestion is completely absurd and shouldn't need to be argued.

Nashville - another defense-first team (as are most these days). Nashville needs to be. They cannot succeed without concenrating on being defensively sound like the Sens a few years ago. Rinne's been excellent this year though, I have no intention of taking anything away from him.

Another thing to note is not only Columbus turnaround from last season, but their turnaround this Mason's debut. They were 4-6-2 to start the season. Mason then started his first game after the tandem of Norreena and Leclaire wasn't working and Steve Mason is right now 31-17-4. Although, I'm not sure if that includes tonight's win over the Flames, it probably doesn't.

The only goalie IMO that has a sniff at Mason for the Vezina is Thomas. I can't imagine how anyone than those two could possibly pick it up.

[Datsyerberger 279]

DYB, I can't remember if I've ever disagreed with you. Your a great poster and IMO pretty much always spot on. But your assessment of these goalies seems extremely skewed to me.

As Marcus said, you apply explanations and excuses for Mason's numbers that don't seem to apply to anyone else. Hitchcock uses a defensive style? So what are Minnesota, Boston, Florida, Anaheim and Nashville? The '85 Oilers?

Minnesota - I shouldn't even need to explain this. Along with NJ they have for years been the most defensive (and boring) team in the league and every single goalie to be lucky enough to enter their crease has had good numbers.

Boston - great offense, no doubt but they're built around their D. Besides, who wouldn't enjoy sitting behind Chara and Wideman. I know Fernandez does:

M. Fernandez - 14-6-3, 2.39GAA, .915SV%, 1 SO

Florida - their GM is Jacques Martin. Nathan Horton is their highest paid forward. Their D is considerably better than their offense. Their backup goalie is Craig Anderson. I think we can all agree he's no Vezina candidate... but Vokoun is?? I must be missing something:

Anderson - 13-6-5, 2.72GAA, .925SV%, 3 SO

Vokoun - 23-22-6, 2.49GAA, .925SV%, 6 SO

Anaheim - a team that won their Cup from their blueline. A blueline that is fundamentally the same today. Their top 2 Dmen are Pronger and Niedermayer. The BJ's top 2 is Commodore and Backman. I'm not sure how Giguere being horrible this season makes Hiller the next Sawchuk. No way in hell has he outperformed Mason, the suggestion is completely absurd and shouldn't need to be argued.

Nashville - another defense-first team (as are most these days). Nashville needs to be. They cannot succeed without concenrating on being defensively sound like the Sens a few years ago. Rinne's been excellent this year though, I have no intention of taking anything away from him.

Another thing to note is not only Columbus turnaround from last season, but their turnaround this Mason's debut. They were 4-6-2 to start the season. Mason then started his first game after the tandem of Norreena and Leclaire wasn't working and Steve Mason is right now 31-17-4. Although, I'm not sure if that includes tonight's win over the Flames, it probably doesn't.

The only goalie IMO that has a sniff at Mason for the Vezina is Thomas. I can't imagine how anyone than those two could possibly pick it up.

Thanks, Doggy, you're one of my highly respected posters as well.

As for a response to this, read about two/three posts up.. it looks like I got something in that addresses most of this just a couple minutes before you tied your post off.

As an aside, when I say defense in discussions like this, I usually mean team defense -- the overall ability of the players within their coaches system to limit SOG and scoring chances, which Columbus has done beautifully this year. I clarify that better in my above post. Yes, some of these teams have better players on the back end than C-bus.. but it's the overall team defense that matters more, not just the D-pairs.

Edit: One thing I think is worth making an addendum for is something an above poster pointed out -- C-bus does play much more confidently in front of Mason. Then again, if my backup was Dubie, I probably would too.

Another thing: That's not my order for expected Vezina winners. I expect Mason to be a finalist. He's got a lot of things going for him, aside from some satire earlier in the thread:

Shutouts

Age

Low GAA

Cinderella story

All things which the media likes.

Edited March 27, 2009 by Datsyerberger

[CanadaBoy 151]

33 save shutout for Mason in a 5 goal win against CALGARY

:band:

What a crazy MOFO! (10th of the season!)

Edited March 27, 2009 by CanadaBoy

[Datsyerberger 279]

33 save shutout for Mason in a 5 goal win against CALGARY

:band:

What a crazy MOFO! (10th of the season!)

The Flames, you say?

Mason to Detroit (e5)

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Just looking to stir the pot here and see what others think. Keep in mind this isn't a Mason bash by any means, coming into the league and securing a position like he has at 20, all while putting up good numbers, is nothing to scoff at. However, he's starting to get mentioned as a Vezina candidate over some very worthy netminders.

A few things to consider here:

Ken Hitchcock coaches an amazingly effective defensive system. In fact, I believe Columbus is around #2 for least SA/G. Goaltenders seem to have an excellent track record on Hitchcock coached teams as well, including some that went on to be absolutely terrible on non-Hitchcock teams. Not only do his teams limit SA/G very well, but they also do a great job of limiting scoring chances.

Here are some other goaltenders to consider this year, in no particular order:

Tomas Vokoun -- .925 SV% on a defensively unspectacular Panthers team. Probably the most overlooked starter in the league. The guy is a consistently great goalie.

Pekka Rinne -- Worse team than C-Bus, higher SV% and near as many shutouts (team stat), though a few less games played. Also a rookie, like Mason.

Mike Smith -- Guy doesn't get near enough notice because he's on a s*** team. .916 SV%, 31.2 SA/G .. that's the 2nd highest SA/G in the league, and probably in the top 5 for shot quality as well.. and only .02% off from Mason. Being someone who watches a lot of TBL as well, I have to say this guy has been very impressive besides the stats.

Jonas Hiller -- Another guy beating out Mason in the SV% category, and also on one of the most penalized teams in the league.. thus doing a considerable amount of his workload on the PK. Again, a few less GP than Mason.

Ryan Miller -- Tons of Miller fans in the D, obviously.. again, higher SV%, defensively inferior team. Also plenty of starts to go to his name. This guy, imo, carries the Sabres more than Mason does the Jackets.

The "other" Mason -- .917 SV%, .01% shy of S. Mason, all while playing on a defensively inferior team.. and furthermore, one that has close to 500 games worth of injuries -- including top d-men, team captain, top 3 and top 6 forwards. This is the Mason who, in my opinion, should be getting more consideration this year.

Tim Thomas -- Even with Boston having great D, there's no denying how effective his Hasek-eqsue (as a Montreal fan in a fantasy league I play in put it) "Wacky Waiving Inflatable Arm-Flailing Goalie Style" has been.

Niklas (or is it Nicklas?) Backstrom -- As much as people like to argue the Minnesota defensive system, SA/G wise Columbus has been even better this year... and yet Backstrom leads Mason in SV%, with more starts and GP as well.

Roberto Luongo -- Equal SV% to Mason.

HM: Marc-Andre Fleury -- Falling on his ass aside, this guy has a great A game when his confidence is up. Still over .910 SV%, on a team that was missing their top 2 d-men for a considerable chunk of the year, not to mention some terrible floaters.

Note: I didn't put Brodeur on here because of very low GP, but in what he has done this year, he's been usual solid Brodeur.

So if I had to rate these goalies performance-wise this year?

1. Thomas

2. Vokoun

3. Miller

4. Backstrom

5. Rinne

6. Smith

7. C. Mason

8. Hiller

9. Luongo

10. S. Mason

11. Fleury

I can only imagine the flaming having Steve Mason at 10 might incur some places, but consider this: He's one of 2 rookie goalies on the list, and of all the goalies in that list, he's the youngest by a considerable amount, and also has more starts than a decent number of them.

Top 10 NHL goalie in his first year, at 20. That's pretty damned impressive. I just don't think he should be christened as a top 3 Vezina finalist, yet.

Thoughts?

I think a good bit of it might also have to do with Columbus making the playoffs for the first time ever in all likelihood assuming they just don't fall off the face of the earth. Whether a solid defensive system greatly contributed to that or not more than Mason himself, that's subjective (at least to me since I have barely watched Columbus this year), but with 10 shutouts and a solid GAA I'm assuming, Mason has certainly done his part to help put Columbus where they are at for a great chance for a playoff berth. 10+ shutouts in a season is hard to come by these days I'm betting as an NHL goalie where offense is pereceived/favored more in the game today IMO. Heck, it's hard any year now. I know that shouldn't be the end-of-all-end factors to being a Vezina etc., but it should obviously be considered. I think that along with the 1st playoff birth are big reasons why Mason could be a candidate. And it's just a great feel-good story regardless of if you are a fan of Columbus/Mason or not - a rookie goalie probably not many people have heard of, very young, and he's just kicking butt overall in his first year to being one of the best guys on his team/one of the better goalies in the league.

Edited March 27, 2009 by SouthernWingsFan

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I'm from Ohio. I live in Ohio. I watch the Jackets all the time.

Steve Mason may not get a Vezina finalist spot. But he deserves one IMO. And as for the Calder, Rinne has been great....and I would know as I've had him on fantasy all year, but Mason has been better.

All this talk of shots per game and quality chances. I understand how shots per game can be an indicator of something as its a hard stat. As for scoring chances, and no offense to the OP here, how the f*** can you say with any certainty what they give up, how many they give up, what quality they are, etc........It's a generic statement to say they limit quality scoring chances per game. There's nothing definitive there. In essense its just a theory. Quite plausible but with nothing to back it up. Show me some data and i'll change my tune.

Columbus is 7th in defense with 202 goals against. Look at the other top 6 teams.

Boston 171 goals against, 243 goals for

Sharks 185 ga 240 goals for

New Jersey 181 ga 225 goals for

Chicago 196 ga 239 goals for

Vancouver 202 ga 221 goals for

Minnesota 182 ga 190 goals for

Columbus 202 ga 207 goals for

they have the smallest differential of any of these teams, and they've given up more goals than any of these teams. That tells me 2 things: Those other teams either have better players, a better defensive system or just better goalies or some combination. Or, it tells me that Columbus isn't nearly this juggernaut defense, rather they are a team with good defense that eeks out victories most nights thanks in part to the stellar play of their goaltender who keeps them in games.

Columbus finished 9th in D last year based on goals against.

Columbus finished 17th in D 2 years ago.

Columbus finished 26th in D 3 years ago yielding a whopping 279 goals against.

Their defense has been improving steadily since Hitch has been there. But this is by far their best season. Is it a coincidence that this is Mason's first season?

I don't follow goalies all that much. I don't know who should get the Vezina. My guess is Thomas will. I have no idea who would be a finalist.

I know one thing though. I'm placing bets with my bookie that Mason locks down the Calder in a race that ends up being.....oh, what do you call it......................ah yes....A LANDSLIDE!

[scotzman 29]

As a transplanted Wings fan living in the Columbus area, can you please just answer one question for me about the vaunted Jacket's defense? Who are their amazing, Norris quality defensemen?

Commodore? Hejda?

I guess it can be argued that the team has adopted Hitch's style or defensively responsible hockey. Rick Nash has taken pride in two way play and so have their other amazing superstars like... Huselius, Umberger, Vermette and Modin

The Blue Jackets have far surpassed expectations this year. They are a group of grinders and hard working guys with some second tier stars other than Nash and Mason. When this year started and Leclaire was in net the team did not have the confidence they have now. Mason changed the attitude and swagger of the team.

When you know that you've got a guy that will cover up a lot of your mistakes, you play with more confidence.

As mentioned by others, with Mason the Jackets are a playoff contender... without, on the outside looking in. Trust me, there are a lot of teams in the West not looking forward to facing the CBJ in the first round... just ask Calgary.

[Echolalia 2,961]

I don't understand the whole mono thing with Mason. I'm under the impression that if you get mono, physical activities can rupture your spleen.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Minny and Boston both have really good defense, but.. Columbus's is better this year. Seriously, examining SA/G and shot quality, Columbus has really, really solid team defense this year, which is a usual for Hitchcock teams. I'm not discrediting Mason.. just pointing out that while he plays on the (albeit slightly, quite present) better defensive team, those two have better SV%s.. in Thomas's case, considerably so, and in Backstrom's case, with quite a few more GP.

One thing you'll notice is that quite a few of those teams are at least above average defensive teams: Rinne's, Steve Mason's, Thomas's, Backstrom's, Luongo's. For those on average or worse: Miller, Chris Mason, Smith, and Vokoun -- Smith in particular gets props for being a bright spot on a defensively god-awful team, and Chris Mason for helping hold up such a crippled team.

Also worth noting is that 3(!) of them are in the central.

Finally, it is worth noting that Mason IS one of the main reasons (if not THE reason) that team is in playoff contention... then again, the same could be be said for Rinne in Nashville, Miller in Buffalo, Mason in St Louis, Vokoun in Florida, and Backstrom in Minnesota (Smith is just boned). If Mason gets credit for that, then all of those guys should get (at least) the same amount.

I agree with you here, but I'm just saying that Mason's played his team into a very solid playoff spot the likely won't split. The jury is still out on whether those other guys will be playing in mid April.

If the Wild manage to make the playoffs then Backstrom deserves serious consideration for the Vez and for even the Hart.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

I don't understand the whole mono thing with Mason. I'm under the impression that if you get mono, physical activities can rupture your spleen.

Fact: Mason's so bad ass he doesn't need a spleen.

(Actually I think he was playing with undiagnosed mono for the majority of that 5(?) week period)

[Datsyerberger 279]

I'm from Ohio. I live in Ohio. I watch the Jackets all the time.

Steve Mason may not get a Vezina finalist spot. But he deserves one IMO.

Mason WILL get a Vezina finalist spot, and the Calder, or I'll eat my hat.

[Guest Four]

Mason WILL get a Vezina finalist spot, and the Calder, or I'll eat my hat.

Please post on youtube?

[Mors 201]

Don't you guys know when you make one of these threads questioning someones' skillz, they immediately go out and play even better. This works for current Wings' roster players as well as our rivals

See: Samuelsson, Kopecky, Osgood.

[Doggy 130]

Mason WILL get a Vezina finalist spot, and the Calder, or I'll eat my hat.

Okay you win. I'm now rooting against him.

[Echolalia 2,961]

Fact: Mason's so bad ass he doesn't need a spleen.

(Actually I think he was playing with undiagnosed mono for the majority of that 5(?) week period)

Can't argue with facts

[Datsyerberger 279]

Okay you win. I'm now rooting against him.

XD

I might not actually eat my hat, but as per one suggestion, I might youtube myself chewing on one of my hats. Only problem is I tend not to wash them any more often than I wash my Wings jersey, so it might be a bit gross XD

[Guest Shoreline]

This.

I think it's pretty valid hype when a 21-year old rookie carries a pretty average team into the playoffs right off the bat with nine shutouts. I think he's been the most valuable player to his team in the league. That's arguable, but the fact that it's even arguable says enough about what an amazing season this 21-year old goalie is having.

I have to agree with this. He's the reason for his 10 shutouts (more than the Jax's defense), and is starting to pick up steam as a Hart candidate as well. He may not be able to sway more votes his way over Ovechkin, but without a doubt he will receive some votes and might be a nominee, though likely not win since forwards usually get favorable treatment for the Hart.

Edited March 28, 2009 by Shoreline

[eva unit zero 271]

I have to agree with this. He's the reason for his 10 shutouts (more than the Jax's defense), and is starting to pick up steam as a Hart candidate as well. He may not be able to sway more votes his way over Ovechkin, but without a doubt he will receive some votes and might be a nominee, though likely not win since forwards usually get favorable treatment for the Hart.

If Minnesota passes Edmonton (which is a very realistic possibility) Backstrom should win the Hart.

For reference, as I make this post Minnesota has 78 points in 74 games to Edmonton's 81 in 75.