Wings MVP so far?

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

In what games? Osgood has been very good, solid. But MVP? No way. It's not like he had to steal a game yet.

Lidstrom is playing against the very best players opposition has to offer and he is pretty good at that. Without him our defense sucks.

Defense that sucks = bye bye playoffs

I know it is very easy to overlook Lidstrom's game, but he is the reason Wings are only 6 wins from another Cup.

Nick would likely be my 2nd choice. We'll see how it goes from here on out. I think its absurd to credit our victories to Nick so much when Osgood has played very well and to a player, the Wings have the deepest group of hard working, back checking, defensively responsible forwards in the league. Ozzie's save percentage of .925 is the 2nd best of his career in the playoffs.

I don't know how you can detract from the guy because he hasn't "stolen" a game. I don't understand that logic. So you can only be great if your team sucked in front of you and you were stellar? I don't buy that logic. I think the skaters do their job and the goalie does his job. If the skaters don't do the job it's on the goalie to have to pick up the slack? But if the skaters do their job great, like Nick does, then the goalie gets no credit?

Sounds like a no win situation to me.

half our playoff games have been 1 goal games. 3 of those we lost, 2 of which Oz gave up 2 goals and we only scored 1. I'd say maybe he didn't "steal" those games, but he gave us every opportunity to win.

Come to think of it, of the 3 losses we have in the postseason, we've lost each by 1 goal. He's given us the opportunity to win every night. I'll take that into consideration for MVP over the skaters not getting it done and the goalie having to be above human.

I don't penalize goaltenders when the skaters play like s***.

[chuklz 15]

Cleary. Everyone else is doing what we pay them to do. Sasha isnt producing. Mule is doing his thing. Ozzie has always been underrated.

Cleary, Ozzie, Mule.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

The last Conn Smythe winning goalie, Ward, posted:

.920 SV%

2.14 GAA

2 Shutouts

15-8 record

While facing 25.3 shots a game.

Last year, Ozzie posted:

.930 SV%

1.55 GAA

3 SO

14-4 record

But only faced 22.6 shots a game, so you have to think that factored in along with Zetterberg's excellent play in Zetterberg taking the Smythe. That, and the media is a downer on Ozzie.

This year so far, Ozzie has:

.925 SV%

2.04 GAA

1 SO

10-3 record

While facing 28 or so shots a game. Thus far, better than Ward's Conn Smythe performance. And anyone who's watched the games know Osgood is having to make some quality stops, not just garbage.

Thus far, my order:

Osgood

Franzen

Lidstrom

(space)

Cleary

(space)

Whoever else

Right now, Ward is holding at:

.926 SV%

2.28 GAA

2 SO

8-7 record

31 shots/game

If it ends up Wings - Canes for the SCF, you've got to think there's a Conn Smythe goaltender battle in that matchup.

Brilliant post! I would have Lids ahead of Franzen but nonetheless.

[Konnan511 1,736]

Other than the last 3 games in which he has been fantastic, Cleary has been "just" good.

I can promise you this team would be in bigger trouble if Lids got hurt than if Cleary got hurt.

Well yah...there are six defensemen and twelve forwards, of course we'd miss a D-Man over a forward.

[Reds4Life 51]

Nick would likely be my 2nd choice. We'll see how it goes from here on out. I think its absurd to credit our victories to Nick so much when Osgood has played very well and to a player, the Wings have the deepest group of hard working, back checking, defensively responsible forwards in the league. Ozzie's save percentage of .925 is the 2nd best of his career in the playoffs.

I don't know how you can detract from the guy because he hasn't "stolen" a game. I don't understand that logic. So you can only be great if your team sucked in front of you and you were stellar? I don't buy that logic. I think the skaters do their job and the goalie does his job. If the skaters don't do the job it's on the goalie to have to pick up the slack? But if the skaters do their job great, like Nick does, then the goalie gets no credit?

Sounds like a no win situation to me.

half our playoff games have been 1 goal games. 3 of those we lost, 2 of which Oz gave up 2 goals and we only scored 1. I'd say maybe he didn't "steal" those games, but he gave us every opportunity to win.

Come to think of it, of the 3 losses we have in the postseason, we've lost each by 1 goal. He's given us the opportunity to win every night. I'll take that into consideration for MVP over the skaters not getting it done and the goalie having to be above human.

I don't penalize goaltenders when the skaters play like s***.

How is Osgood any better than Fleury, Ward or even Bulin?

Every good NHL goalie gives his team a chance to win. That's why defense is the most important. That's why Holland spends only few bucks on goalies. Osgood has been very good. Solid. MVP to me means the most important player on the team. IMHO - Osgood is not that man. Lidstrom is.

[OsGOD 3]

Ozzie... without him we are down by at least 5 each game!

[Datsyerberger 279]

How is Osgood any better than Fleury, Ward or even Bulin?

Every good NHL goalie gives his team a chance to win. That's why defense is the most important. That's why Holland spends only few bucks on goalies. Osgood has been very good. Solid. MVP to me means the most important player on the team. IMHO - Osgood is not that man. Lidstrom is.

Fleury? The Fleury who's .902 SV% and 2.7 or so GAA as compared to Ozzie's .925 and 2.04? While facing less shots per game? (28.4 as opposed to Ozzie's 28.7) The guy who faceplanted at the beginning of the SCF last year and potted a Wings goal with his ass? You're kidding, right?

Overrated because he plays with the NHL's bukkake duo. He's young and inconsistent still.

And Bulin? If he's lucky, the Wings shooting gallery will push his SV% to .900 or over.

Edited May 20, 2009 by Datsyerberger

[pavyaz19 1]

Samuelsson, Cleary, Franzen, Hudler.

[gowingsgo 3]

Without question, Chris Osgood

[Reds4Life 51]

Fleury? The Fleury who's .902 SV% and 2.7 or so GAA as compared to Ozzie's .925 and 2.04? While facing less shots per game? (28.4 as opposed to Ozzie's 28.7) The guy who faceplanted at the beginning of the SCF last year and potted a Wings goal with his ass? You're kidding, right?

Overrated because he plays with the NHL's bukkake duo. He's young and inconsistent still.

And Bulin? If he's lucky, the Wings shooting gallery will push his SV% to .900 or over.

Look at Carolina's or s***tsburgh's defense. SV% is not an objective statistic (quality of shots etc), and GAA means absolutely nothing for goalie, it is a team stat.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

How is Osgood any better than Fleury, Ward or even Bulin?

Every good NHL goalie gives his team a chance to win. That's why defense is the most important. That's why Holland spends only few bucks on goalies. Osgood has been very good. Solid. MVP to me means the most important player on the team. IMHO - Osgood is not that man. Lidstrom is.

I think Lidstrom is the greatest defenseman I have ever seen.

That said I think folks assume alot. Like they assume, and probably rightfully so, that without Lidstrom we wouldn't be where we are. Well, without Zetterberg we might not be where we are. Without Franzen or Datsyuk or Cleary or Hossa we might not be where we are. And obviously, without Osgood we might not be where we are. But nobody give Osgood that benefit.

I have to say that it baffles me that people so easily discard Osgood to say you could stick Bulin or Ward or Tomas or anybody else in there and they would do the exact same job.

Well you know what, who is to say that Chris Pronger wouldn't suffice in place of Lidstrom? Who is to say that Chara, in a Detroit sweater, with this roster, wouldn't do just as well as Nick is during these current playoffs?

Nick is unreal, but I don't give him the MVP just by default for that fact. Osgood has been superb. It's a discredit and disrespect to just say "how has he been any better than the other 3 goalies"

How about Bulin is down 2 games to none. How's that for Oz being better?

How about Bulin has a paltry .899 save percentage?

How about Oz has 3 losses in the playoffs while Fleury has 5, Bulin has 6 and Ward has 7?

How about Fleury and Bulin are giving up well over 2.5 goals against per game while Oz leads all netminders at 2.04.

Some people like yourself likely contribute that all to Nick Lidstrom. Or to Nick and a lesser extent the rest of the team. People who do that are predisposed to not giving Osgood credit.

There's a lot of hockey left to be played. Like I said, just my opinion but I have Oz at #1 and Lids at #2.

Look at the regular season stats.

16 goalies had more wins than Oz

40 goalies with at least 20 games played had a better GAA than Oz.

Osgood was 45th out of 47 goalies in save percentage.

Now he's leading every category and trails Ward by just .001 in save percentage. I have a hard time believing Nick Lidstrom and everybody else are the reason for Ozzie's astronomical improvement from the regular season. I'm giving credit where it's due. Oz has been phenomenal.

As usual, we disagee. I'm inclined to be okay with that.

[Datsyerberger 279]

Look at Carolina's or s***tsburgh's defense. SV% is not an objective statistic (quality of shots etc), and GAA means absolutely nothing for goalie, it is a team stat.

Have you actually been watching the playoffs? Carolina's defense has been solid, both the Pens and the Canes have very underrated team defense.

A good half of Ozzie's saves have been against odd man situations, quality scoring chances, screened shots from the slot, and mad scrambles in front of the net. In my opinion, he's had the most impressive glove hand in the playoffs thus far.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Look at Carolina's or s***tsburgh's defense. SV% is not an objective statistic (quality of shots etc), and GAA means absolutely nothing for goalie, it is a team stat.

Is there any flagging goalie statistic that means anything? This is getting absurd now.

Nick Lidstrom doesn't play hockey by himself. All of his stats are in some way, shape or form tied to what everybody else is doing on the ice. Last time I checked, people around here didn't have "turnip" tattooed on their friggin' heads.

You give goalies no credit. We get it. You want Nick's love child. We get it.

And people wonder why Osgood gets no respect. It's because some Wings fans can't get their heads out of their asses. So why would we expect other folks to get smart.

PS: Children, what have we learned from Mrs. Reds4Life thus far? That GAA and Save percentage mean absolutely nothing. In fact, wins and for that matter, no goalie statistic has any worth whatsoever because they are all "team" stats.

But Nick Lidstrom plays hockey 1 against 6. There is no goalie in net for Detroit and no others skaters out there with him. He is solely doing it on his own. His stats are his stats alone and not a reflection of anybody else around him....like those silly goalie stats. Frankly, you could put Nick on a team that is 0 and 82, has a blind goaltender and every player is -40 or worse and Nick would still be +40! WOW!

As far as I know there's not "quality of shots faced" statistic. And if there were, who the f*** would be the judge of that? Oh lets see, you made 23 saves tonight. 3 of them were class 5 (toughest), 5 of them were class 4 saves (slightly difficult) and so on and what ever.

I'm ranting and losing my s*** because your comment about goalie statistics is so mind-numbingly stupid I can't control myself. I'm seeing Tom Cruise in my head right now when he's yelling at Demi Moore in A Few Good Men and telling her that we "shouldn't follow the advice of the galacticly stupid". that's what i'm thinking about you right now.

edited out some curse words.

Edited May 20, 2009 by GordieSid&Ted

[Guest Shoreline]

Obviously the front runner is Osgood. Other two under consideration should be Franzen and Cleary.

[Reds4Life 51]

Have you actually been watching the playoffs? Carolina's defense has been solid, both the Pens and the Canes have very underrated team defense.

A good half of Ozzie's saves have been against odd man situations, quality scoring chances, screened shots from the slot, and mad scrambles in front of the net. In my opinion, he's had the most impressive glove hand in the playoffs thus far.

Is there any ******* goalie statistic that means anything? This is getting absurd now.

Nick Lidstrom doesn't ******* play hockey by himself. All of his stats are in some way, shape or form tied to what everybody else is doing on the ice. Last time I checked, people around here didn't have "turnip" tattooed on their friggin' heads.

You give goalies no credit. We get it. You want Nick's love child. We get it.

And people wonder why Osgood gets no respect. It's because some Wings fans can't get their heads out of their asses. So why would we expect other folks to get smart.

I give goalies credit, I just do not think Osgood has been special or something. He has been good.

I respect Osgood, I just do not think he is Wings' MVP. GAA is a team stat, that is a fact. SV% is subjective stat. Put Ozzie on s***tsburg, which is in Eastern Conf. and his stats would be worse despite the fact that he could shine more and play better than he has for the Wings.

I just think that our (by far) the best defenseman who plays in all situations is more valuable than our goalie. Almost PPG, most PK time, against the best. And it's the fact that some people take his game for granted that he does not get the credit he deserves. Just read any interview with management or the players, they all agree that Lidstrom is the most valuable/important player.

Edited May 20, 2009 by Reds4Life

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I give goalies credit, I just do not think Osgood has been special or something. He has been good.

I respect Osgood, I just do not think he is Wings' MVP. GAA is a team stat, that is a fact. SV% is subjective stat. Put Ozzie on s***tsburg, which is in Eastern Conf. and his stats would be worse despite the fact that he could shine more and play better than he has for the Wings.

I just think that our (by far) the best defenseman who plays in all situations is more valuable than our goalie. Almost PPG, most PK time, against the best.

In your opinion what are team stats and what are individual stats? I would love to analyze your breakdown, this being a team sport and all.

And since you brought up "quality shots faced" what exactly would that say about a goaltender? Shots faced/saves made are part of the save percentage and goals against statistics. But you claim those are team stats and not really "objective" goalie stats. So what difference would a quality shot be? It's still a shot. It's still a save that has to be made or is not made? It still reflects upon the save percentage and GAA numbers? So by your own logic, some saves and in turn the stats they represent are goalie stats and some saves are not?

Do you not see the lunacy in this? Everybody gets that a better defense should equate to fewer quality chances a goalie has to face. But you've overstepped the boundaries of logic here by about 2 miles.

Edited May 20, 2009 by GordieSid&Ted

[Reds4Life 51]

In your opinion what are team stats and what are individual stats? I would love to analyze your breakdown, this being a team sport and all.

GAA is a team stat, you can have Hasek/Roy/Plante in goal but with s***ty team their GAA will be much worse than Giguere would have behind great defense. Their SV% would also be different and Giguere could have the best stats despite the fact that he is much worse that those 3 guys.

This is nothing against Osgood, because he is a huge part of that, but Wings' GAA went down because defense stepped it up (take Stuart for example). Another team stat is WINS. Brodeur was never better than Hasek yet he has more wins. Etc.

Personally, I think people (on LGW) give Osgood so much credit because he never gets enough from media/other fans. But a team MVP? No way imho.

Lidstrom's game, on the other hand, is taken for granted and not appreciated enough.

Edited May 20, 2009 by Reds4Life

[GoWings1905 2,694]

Nick Lidstrom by far.

Ozzie, Z, and Mule deserve consideration as well.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

GAA is a team stat, you can have Hasek/Roy/Plante in goal but with s***ty team their GAA will be much worse than Giguere would have behind great defense. Their SV% would also be different and Giguere could have the best stats despite the fact that he is much worse that those 3 guys.

This is nothing against Osgood, because he is a huge part of that, but Wings' GAA went down because defense stepped it up (take Stuart for example). Another team stat is WINS. Brodeur was never better than Hasek yet he has more wins. Etc.

Personally, I think people (on LGW) give Osgood so much credit because he never gets enough from media/other fans. But a team MVP? No way imho.

You do know that +/- is a team statistic. So you can throw out Nick Lidstrom's plus minus because by your own argument it means absolutely nothing. Assists...last time I checked you can't get any without somebody else scoring the goal. Short of penalties, I'm not sure there are really many stats that could be considered solely individual stats and not a reflection of the team. And really that is a stretch because if the guy you play with sucks and is out of position you might have to take a penalty.

As for your argument....Oz's numbers are pretty much only better because the defense has "stepped it up".

What are you talking about?

Our penalty kill is worse than the regular season

Our faceoff win percentage is worse than the regular season

And we're giving up more shots per game than the regular season.

The only thing we are doing better is our GAA is down from 2.93 in the regular season to 2.15 in the playoffs.

conversely, Osgood's numbers in the regular season were some of the worst in the league. Now his numbers are the best in the league.

So your argument is that even though Osgood's numbers were terrible and now they are amazing....and even though our penalty kill and shots allowed per game are worse than they were in the regular season...our success can be mostly attributed to the defense "stepping it up"

I'd say Osgood has stepped it up more than anybody. But you wouldn't believe that because his stats are team stats. ????

I totally don't follow you at all.

[Theophany 110]

Yes, Ozzie is clearly not the MVP. Slot Conklin in and we'd still be in the same place.

I see the argument against having Ozzie as MVP because other people (Franzen, Cleary, Zata) have come up huge is some games or have been playing amazing positional play, but saying that Ozzie has been anything less than stellar indicates that you have no idea what's involved in goaltending.

Let's keep in mind that MVP means most valuable player. I.E., you wouldn't be where you are without that player.

If we had Conklin in Ozzie's place, I can guarantee that we'd not be doing as well as we currently are. Hell, we'd probably have lost the Anaheim series pretty handily; he made a lot of clutch saves in that series.

He's the best goalie still left in the playoffs by numbers. Fact. Not arguable. He's saved our bacon numerous times this postseason, and it's time to give the guy some credit.

Lids playing his position as always doesn't take this team all the way; the other team is still going to get shots and goals. Yeah, it would suck to go without him, but I can safely say that I'd rather go without Lids, Franzen, Cleary, etc rather than go without Ozzie in the net with how hot he's been.

I love Lids, but he's not been as clutch as Ozzie. Ozzie has been saving our asses, and deserves the credit.

[Reds4Life 51]

You do know that +/- is a team statistic. So you can throw out Nick Lidstrom's plus minus because by your own argument it means absolutely nothing. Assists...last time I checked you can't get any without somebody else scoring the goal. Short of penalties, I'm not sure there are really many stats that could be considered solely individual stats and not a reflection of the team. And really that is a stretch because if the guy you play with sucks and is out of position you might have to take a penalty.

As for your argument....Oz's numbers are pretty much only better because the defense has "stepped it up".

What are you talking about?

Our penalty kill is worse than the regular season

Our faceoff win percentage is worse than the regular season

And we're giving up more shots per game than the regular season.

The only thing we are doing better is our GAA is down from 2.93 in the regular season to 2.15 in the playoffs.

conversely, Osgood's numbers in the regular season were some of the worst in the league. Now his numbers are the best in the league.

So your argument is that even though Osgood's numbers were terrible and now they are amazing....and even though our penalty kill and shots allowed per game are worse than they were in the regular season...our success can be mostly attributed to the defense "stepping it up"

I'd say Osgood has stepped it up more than anybody. But you wouldn't believe that because his stats are team stats. ????

I totally don't follow you at all.

I do not follow you either. I just think that GAA went down for number of reasons, not just Ozzie's play. (playoff hockey, tighter defense)

I do not think that Osgood is team MVP just because he stepped it up, it's not like he could be any worse than he was during regular season.

I do think Lidstrom is team MVP because he does it all. Simple as that.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I do not follow you either. I just think that GAA went down for number of reasons, not just Ozzie's play. (playoff hockey, tighter defense)

I do not think that Osgood is team MVP just because he stepped it up, it's not like he could be any worse than he was during regular season.

I do think Lidstrom is team MVP because he does it all. Simple as that.

What are your "number of reasons"

1. penalty kill is worse

2. shots against is worse

so scratch those off your list of reasons why our GAA is better.

And your comment about him not being any worse than he was in the regular season says alot about how much you disrespect Osgood's play and to say otherwise is merely lip service.

Osgood's numbers haven't just gotten better. They've gotten astronomically better.

And your sole explanation is that the defense has stepped it up? Even though some of our defensive statistics say otherwise.

Lest I remind you there are 6 defensman playing, not just Nick Lidstrom. There is only 1 goaltender.

So if the "defense stepped up", what you are saying is that all of the defenders have stepped up, which in turn makes their individual contributions less significant because it's 6 of them playing better. Or are you saying only Nick Lidstrom has stepped up and the rest of the guys are sucking?

One thing is clear, Chris Osgood's numbers are impeccable. That's either attributed to him playing great hockey or the rest of the team playing great hockey. Or in your mind, just Nick Lidstrom playing great hockey.

I'm inclined to think everybody has tightened up and is playing better defense. But I am more inclined to think Chris Osgood has elevated/stepped up his play more than anybody else on the ice.

Osgood = MVP through 13 games.

[Urgi 0]

1. Lidstrom (playing against the best in every shift, on the ice on pk and pp and is one of the best in the world in both of them)

2. Franzen (no comment)

3. Zetterberg (best twoway center in the league right now, getting alot of points and is a beast on the pk)

I dont think Ozzie is worth it seriously, yes he is GOOD but he is not carrying the team in anyway, its a ******* nice job to have the best d in the league infront of you, he dont get alot of qualityshots against him and he stops what he has to stops but that is not worth MVP for a goalie, sorry.

[Reds4Life 51]

What are your "number of reasons"

1. penalty kill is worse

2. shots against is worse

so scratch those off your list of reasons why our GAA is better.

And your comment about him not being any worse than he was in the regular season says alot about how much you disrespect Osgood's play and to say otherwise is merely lip service.

Osgood's numbers haven't just gotten better. They've gotten astronomically better.

And your sole explanation is that the defense has stepped it up? Even though some of our defensive statistics say otherwise.

Lest I remind you there are 6 defensman playing, not just Nick Lidstrom. There is only 1 goaltender.

So if the "defense stepped up", what you are saying is that all of the defenders have stepped up, which in turn makes their individual contributions less significant because it's 6 of them playing better. Or are you saying only Nick Lidstrom has stepped up and the rest of the guys are sucking?

One thing is clear, Chris Osgood's numbers are impeccable. That's either attributed to him playing great hockey or the rest of the team playing great hockey. Or in your mind, just Nick Lidstrom playing great hockey.

I'm inclined to think everybody has tightened up and is playing better defense. But I am more inclined to think Chris Osgood has elevated/stepped up his play more than anybody else on the ice.

Osgood = MVP through 13 games.

I never said that.

Besides, shots against "worse" there is a one or so shot on goal difference. Wings have scored more goals than any other team.

I am happy Osgood stepped it up and plays very good hockey, but he is not MVP in my opinion. Lidstrom is.

What's your problem with that?

[Urgi 0]

What are your "number of reasons"

1. penalty kill is worse

2. shots against is worse

so scratch those off your list of reasons why our GAA is better.

And your comment about him not being any worse than he was in the regular season says alot about how much you disrespect Osgood's play and to say otherwise is merely lip service.

Osgood's numbers haven't just gotten better. They've gotten astronomically better.

And your sole explanation is that the defense has stepped it up? Even though some of our defensive statistics say otherwise.

Lest I remind you there are 6 defensman playing, not just Nick Lidstrom. There is only 1 goaltender.

So if the "defense stepped up", what you are saying is that all of the defenders have stepped up, which in turn makes their individual contributions less significant because it's 6 of them playing better. Or are you saying only Nick Lidstrom has stepped up and the rest of the guys are sucking?

One thing is clear, Chris Osgood's numbers are impeccable. That's either attributed to him playing great hockey or the rest of the team playing great hockey. Or in your mind, just Nick Lidstrom playing great hockey.

I'm inclined to think everybody has tightened up and is playing better defense. But I am more inclined to think Chris Osgood has elevated/stepped up his play more than anybody else on the ice.

Osgood = MVP through 13 games.

Its not fair to compare regular season and the playoffs since you face better teams and the attitude is so different.