If You Think Hudler's NOT worth $3 Million...

[theman19 47]

The 2010 has good headliners (Taylor Hall and Kirill Kabanov) but I have no clue what the depth's like. I haven't read much about it.

The hockey news said that the 2011 draft is "already making scouts cringe", comparing it to the terrible, terrible 1999 draft (where Zetterberg was the only superstar taken, and he was passed over more than 200 times before we snagged him, although some might argue that the Sedins are stars, they're not superstars).

'

Ryan Miller, taken 5th round.

[Zetts 236]

The 2010 has good headliners (Taylor Hall and Kirill Kabanov) but I have no clue what the depth's like. I haven't read much about it.

The hockey news said that the 2011 draft is "already making scouts cringe", comparing it to the terrible, terrible 1999 draft (where Zetterberg was the only superstar taken, and he was passed over more than 200 times before we snagged him, although some might argue that the Sedins are stars, they're not superstars).

You always hear about that being a weak year, but I just looked it up for the first time. My god was it bad. If 2011 is anything like that, I feel really bad for the teams who tank that season.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

You always hear about that being a weak year, but I just looked it up for the first time. My god was it bad. If 2011 is anything like that, I feel really bad for the teams who tank that season.

Yeah, but 2003 made up for it!

[lomekian 201]

What could have been a very dull topic has turned into a very interesting discussion...good work chaps!

For my tuppence worth, I feel that both are possibly worth $2.75-3m on the open market, but neither is really worth that to Detroit. We can all see huds is the better player offensively by some distance (and playing 2nd line on a weaker team could probably put up 70-75 points), and his shooting (particularly on 1-timers) is light years ahead of flip (as his ability to find open ice). The downside is that despite significant improvements, he doesn't have great defensive instincts and his size can really count against him, particularly as he doesnt have fantastic speed. When he's on one of his good runs this isn't really a big deal as his point production more than compensates, but when he's on a poor stretch, his contribution to the team is minimal, as he lacks the real 2-way game to make an impact at both ends of the ice, and can't exactly throw hits around. He plays bigger than he is most night, which is greatly appreciated, but he starts from a position of weakness.

Flip is almost the opposite in someways. his max point threshold any time soon is probably in the 60 mark barring incredible improvement. His shooting is a weakness, though he is better at puck retention and breaking up ice. Both for me have similar playmaking abilities (possibly huds with the better final pass, but flip has the edge at creating dangerous situations). Comparisons with pine furniture are cruel but not entirely out of order. Other side of the coin is he is a real 2 way player, solid defensively, postionally sound and quick. Doesn't use his size all that well, but unlike huds contributes more when his game is off due to broader (though less polished skil-set).

Flip for me has higher potential, but huds seems to be more likely to maximise his. If choosing between the two, I'd go for flip, because a) he's more of a natural centre and I think thats more valuable and b) he often gives the impression of being 5% away from making serious strides. Despite Huds having as much impact, I just don't see that much margin for improvement - his technical skills and hockey sense are already strong, but I don't see him developing physically or significantly defensively.

As has been said...its all down the cap and Hossa. If we can sign hossa for 4-5m, then I'd let huds go and hope he gets a nice big offer sheet.

[under_par_00 45]

Hudler is an elite offensive talent. He would have been a top draft pick if not for his size. He is only in his 3rd full season with the Wings and has been making great improvements each year. He is really a question mark as to where he will end up, but each year he is getting more experience and also improving his game, I could see him getting 30 goals next year if given the chance on the top 2 lines. Plus he has great vision and can make a great pass. Put him on a line with 2 skilled guys who can play defence and Hudler will do great things! Just not with Zetterberg because he is a very similar player to Hudler (offensively).

I dont want to see a player with Hudler's potential let go, hopefully we can resign him cheap!!

Edited June 25, 2009 by under_par_00

[Motown4013 350]

We saw Flip come into his own in 07-08 only to be our worst forward in the first 2 rounds of the playoffs. Confidence is great but in the long run it fizzles out. We've yet to see Filppula put together an 82 game season where he was among the top 6 Red Wings in scoring. I'm sure he's going to be a fantastically usefull player on this team in the future, I'm just not seeing the shot, shot selection or hands you need to be a star player in this league. Val does everything very well except when it comes to his offensive instincts. His shot is terrible, but his passing good (not fantastic, but definitely good) and his ability to hang onto and control the puck is excellent. He'll be able to put up more points this year, but I don't see him exceeding 50-55pts, sorry. Not unless he discovers a scoring touch. I'd be happy to see him break 60pts, though- don't get me wrong, he's still a Wing so I want him to succeed.

We will agree to disagree then

Of course, it all depends on if he gets time on the PP and who his line mates are but i really see him as a 60pt guy.

PS: If you can see him getting 55, why not 60?

[Motown4013 350]

What could have been a very dull topic has turned into a very interesting discussion...good work chaps!

For my tuppence worth, I feel that both are possibly worth $2.75-3m on the open market, but neither is really worth that to Detroit. We can all see huds is the better player offensively by some distance (and playing 2nd line on a weaker team could probably put up 70-75 points), and his shooting (particularly on 1-timers) is light years ahead of flip (as his ability to find open ice). The downside is that despite significant improvements, he doesn't have great defensive instincts and his size can really count against him, particularly as he doesnt have fantastic speed. When he's on one of his good runs this isn't really a big deal as his point production more than compensates, but when he's on a poor stretch, his contribution to the team is minimal, as he lacks the real 2-way game to make an impact at both ends of the ice, and can't exactly throw hits around. He plays bigger than he is most night, which is greatly appreciated, but he starts from a position of weakness.

Flip is almost the opposite in someways. his max point threshold any time soon is probably in the 60 mark barring incredible improvement. His shooting is a weakness, though he is better at puck retention and breaking up ice. Both for me have similar playmaking abilities (possibly huds with the better final pass, but flip has the edge at creating dangerous situations). Comparisons with pine furniture are cruel but not entirely out of order. Other side of the coin is he is a real 2 way player, solid defensively, postionally sound and quick. Doesn't use his size all that well, but unlike huds contributes more when his game is off due to broader (though less polished skil-set).

Flip for me has higher potential, but huds seems to be more likely to maximise his. If choosing between the two, I'd go for flip, because a) he's more of a natural centre and I think thats more valuable and b) he often gives the impression of being 5% away from making serious strides. Despite Huds having as much impact, I just don't see that much margin for improvement - his technical skills and hockey sense are already strong, but I don't see him developing physically or significantly defensively.

As has been said...its all down the cap and Hossa. If we can sign hossa for 4-5m, then I'd let huds go and hope he gets a nice big offer sheet.

You raise some good points here and I agree with you in a lot of respects but I do want to point out that Huds has been with the team for two more years than Flip (years with more than 5 games played) and we all know that it does make a difference in your adjustment to the league. Look at a guy like Richards, Carter, Parise, Getzlaf...all who needed a few years to get used to the speed and physical play of the NHL. Flip is a way better all around player and i think that he will find his shot and his range to put more points up.

Flip has not disappointed me....He is a young guy who has been finding his niche. Perhaps i thought he would find his game a little sooner, but I really, really liked what I saw in the SCP and I think he will be a better player next year.

With that said, i think Huds is great and I would like him to stay in Detroit.

[HudlerFanatic 4]

Hudler is an elite offensive talent. He would have been a top draft pick if not for his size. He is only in his 3rd full season with the Wings and has been making great improvements each year. He is really a question mark as to where he will end up, but each year he is getting more experience and also improving his game, I could see him getting 30 goals next year if given the chance on the top 2 lines. Plus he has great vision and can make a great pass. Put him on a line with 2 skilled guys who can play defence and Hudler will do great things! Just not with Zetterberg because he is a very similar player to Hudler (offensively).

I dont want to see a player with Hudler's potential let go, hopefully we can resign him cheap!!

EXACTLY! There was another quote after this one stating that Hudler could easily be a #2 line player on a weaker team and easily score more or something like that....Hudler doesn't need to be on a weaker team....he needs to be with stronger players on Detroit....if he was on the 2nd line in the D with those guys, more experinced defensive & skilled guys, then he'd have no problem scoring more goals.....

You know, the thread I started about keeping Huds was basically the same thing, except for the "worth $3 mil" part......but Im glad another one was started.

My 30th Bday is tomorrow and knowing that the draft starts Friday.....anyone want to guess what the best birthday present in the world could be right now?!?!?!??! ;o)

[skacore 2]

My 30th Bday is tomorrow and knowing that the draft starts Friday.....anyone want to guess what the best birthday present in the world could be right now?!?!?!??! ;o)

Hudler's rights traded for 1st overall and we select Tavares??

[HudlerFanatic 4]

Hudler's rights traded for 1st overall and we select Tavares??

I didn't say it was YOUR birthday, I said it was MINE.....and when I blow out my candles (if anyone even gets me a cake) it is not for a draft pick....but for a contract!!! LOL!

[LIDDYGIBBY5 1]

Filppula: 63 games, 11 goals, 21 assists, 32 points, 13 +

Hudler: 51 games, 9 goals, 19 assists, 28 points 5 +

Playoff stats.

Great stats! It's too bad that many people here can't think past the last playoff round when they decide to pile on a player as useless or worthless

[egroen 384]

I kind of like having at least one player who can concentrate and excel on offense.

This team is chock-full of responsible two-way players (and Hudler is not ba at all, just not up to what we are used to in Detroit) -- In fact, I'd be fine with him cherry-picking ala Brett Hull.

Edited June 25, 2009 by egroen

[Z Winged Dangler 2,082]

Hudler will be sticking around and likely for less than $2m. No team will offer Hudler enough to get it into the 1st/3rd range of compensation, and there's a good chance Holland will sign Hudler for less than $2m because Huds knows what he's got if he sticks around as opposed to if he leaves.

if hossa signs, huds is gone. hudler skates slow anyways. i've always backed him up and liked him, but he's not a top priority for the wings right now. kevin lowe is gonna make another one of his offer sheets and he'll be on a line with penner next year.

[egroen 384]

if hossa signs, huds is gone. hudler skates slow anyways. i've always backed him up and liked him, but he's not a top priority for the wings right now. kevin lowe is gonna make another one of his offer sheets and he'll be on a line with penner next year.

I think it is closer to -- If Hossa signs, either Kronwall or Filppula is gone.

I really have not seen a roster with Flip and Hossa that fits under the current cap, without trading a NTC guy.

Flip and Kronwall are really the only guys that relieve enough cap space.

[under_par_00 45]

It is a win-win situation for the Wings. Resign Hossa for 4 mil is a great deal, and it that doesnt happen, then we will resign Hudler to fill his place as an offensive stud on the top 2 lines.

Look at a similar player, Martin St. Louis. Hudler has 3 full season under his belt with the big club: 25 pts (15G), 42 pts (13G), and 57 pts (23G).

Now for St. Louis' first full 3 seasons with the big club: 18 pts (3G but only 56 games), 40 pts (18G), 35 pts (16 G) in 53 games.

Pretty close stats if you extrapolate St Louis to play in more than 50 or so games. And St Louis went on to multiple 80+ pt seasons, including one 100 pt season and multiple 30+ goal seasons.

Hudler has a lot of potential, he is a young player with elite offensive talents who is learning how to play in the NHL. Give him top 2 line minutes with solid players around him and he will produce.

[RockyMountainWingGal 108]

Like Conklin was better than Osgood in the regular season?

Huds has far more skill and ability than Flip. He has star-quality skills. I'm not saying he'll get there and I don't think he'll ever be a superstar to say the least, but given the numbers and the skill sets, Huds absolutely has more potential.

And as said above extensively, Flips playoff performance doesn't say as much as some would like. And the whole "better today" thing is just ridiculous. Are we going to throw Datsyuk to the curb because a healthy Flip had a better playoffs in some ways than an injured Dats who missed a lot of games? Don't be so fickle.

I like Hudler but he is not an elite player like so many think he is. He is a third line guy at best and is not worth 3 million bucks. Sorry if I disagree with you. Flip makes half of Datsyuk for a reason, he will never be Datsyuk either. But he can/will be a top two line guy.

If Hudler can fit into next year's budget, so be it. But I don't see him as indispensable - the way some posters are talking, he's going to get nominated for the Hart next year.....

[Drake_Marcus 890]

We will agree to disagree then

Of course, it all depends on if he gets time on the PP and who his line mates are but i really see him as a 60pt guy.

PS: If you can see him getting 55, why not 60?

'cause we all know once he meets my upper limit of expectation he'll throw himself a lavish party and drink so much the hangover will derail the rest of the season.

Val makes the Canadians players look like freshmen.

[gcom007 1,465]

I like Hudler but he is not an elite player like so many think he is. He is a third line guy at best and is not worth 3 million bucks. Sorry if I disagree with you. Flip makes half of Datsyuk for a reason, he will never be Datsyuk either. But he can/will be a top two line guy.

If Hudler can fit into next year's budget, so be it. But I don't see him as indispensable - the way some posters are talking, he's going to get nominated for the Hart next year.....

I absolutely don't think he's an elite player. I just think he offers more upside than Flip. Like I said, I'm fine with losing either to keep Hossa who is a true elite player. I'd keeps Huds over Flip though to be honest. Flip's a better all around player but we can afford to have some scoring specialists like Huds. But again, whatever it takes to keep Hossa if you ask me. I think Flip's gone if Hossa stays and if Huds has a dream of staying, he signs a 2-year deal on the cheap to prove himself until we get more cap flexibility.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

I absolutely don't think he's an elite player. I just think he offers more upside than Flip. Like I said, I'm fine with losing either to keep Hossa who is a true elite player. I'd keeps Huds over Flip though to be honest. Flip's a better all around player but we can afford to have some scoring specialists like Huds. But again, whatever it takes to keep Hossa if you ask me. I think Flip's gone if Hossa stays and if Huds has a dream of staying, he signs a 2-year deal on the cheap to prove himself until we get more cap flexibility.

I agree. If Hudler stays he'll sign a cheap but very short term deal. He knows he's got better years ahead and would rather gamble on cashing in then than sign a crazy long deal now. Plus Hudler is a very reliable player injury wise, so he won't likely be derailed there.

[HudlerFanatic 4]

It is a win-win situation for the Wings. Resign Hossa for 4 mil is a great deal, and it that doesnt happen, then we will resign Hudler to fill his place as an offensive stud on the top 2 lines.

Look at a similar player, Martin St. Louis. Hudler has 3 full season under his belt with the big club: 25 pts (15G), 42 pts (13G), and 57 pts (23G).

Now for St. Louis' first full 3 seasons with the big club: 18 pts (3G but only 56 games), 40 pts (18G), 35 pts (16 G) in 53 games.

Pretty close stats if you extrapolate St Louis to play in more than 50 or so games. And St Louis went on to multiple 80+ pt seasons, including one 100 pt season and multiple 30+ goal seasons.

Hudler has a lot of potential, he is a young player with elite offensive talents who is learning how to play in the NHL. Give him top 2 line minutes with solid players around him and he will produce.

....This is what I've been saying. Put him where he belongs with the more solid players and he WILL produce....just like he does on the PP.....Huds is a smaller guy, but playing on a line w/ Z or Franzen and I would bet money that he'd be scoring more than on a line w/ Sammy and such.........The solid, more experienced players don't try to be superstars and "puck hog" they know when to let go and assist a goal w/ a good play maker...and being on a line w/ some bigger guys will make up for his lack of size....(IMO)