Are Power Forwards a dying breed?

[BlakKy 58]

How about Alexander Semin?

VIDEO

Does this count?

This video is better...

Better casting LOL!

Edited June 29, 2009 by BlakKy

[Guest micah]

Well Franzen is on that list. Maybe he isn't a PF in the true (old) sense of the title, but in the modern NHL he is.

LOL. Yup, he's right up there with fellow "wikipedia power forward" Mats Sundin.

[egroen 384]

If all that matters to you is scoring, good for you. I'm happy for you if you enjoy players like Franzen. My list of favorite players is not ranked by points per year though, sorry. Toe mae toe, toe mah toe.

I loathe Franzen not because he backed down from a fight once, but because he has shown a consistant pattern of being unwilling and unable to stick up for himself or his teamates. Like I said, for me to like a player, they don't need 15 fights a year, they just need to be willing. Franzen isn't. I'm happy he's playing the best hockey of his young carreer. That doesn't mean I have to like him.

Uh, you "loathe" him.

A pure goalscorer with soft, deft hands who hits, crashes to the net and actually plays well defensively and is arguably the most clutch player in the NHL.

This is a guy Hakan Andersson picked up late in the 3rd freakin' round of the draft -- the players you want, who do all that AND fight (IE. North Americans) typically go high in the first round.

So in other words, Detroit is not going to get them unless they suck for a few years and get those high draft picks -- is that what you want?

I guess I am just happy Detroit can consistently find gems like this, without having to suck and get those picks -- even if they are not "perfect".

[Guest micah]

This is a guy Hakan Andersson picked up late in the 3rd freakin' round of the draft -- the players you want, who do all that AND fight (IE. North Americans) typically go high in the first round.

Where's Lilja from? Ericcsson?

Would you believe Franzen and Lilja were the same height and weight if you only watched their play and knew nothing else of them?

Look, Franzen plays a great game and I've never denied that. The fact is, he chooses to be coward on the ice. I appreciate the skill he brings to the game, but I cannot for the life of me fathom why a man his size is such a consistant diver and habitual turtle when anyone with a flyswatter comes near him. I don't expect him to be a great fighter, I expect him to not crap his pants when he's forced into a scrap. It isn't about being North american or Swedish or Polish. Datsyuk is European and far more skilled than Franzen, he's also smaller and less likely to dive. He will, when he has to, fight back. Blaming Franzen's cowardice on his being from Seden is not being very nice to Swedes. While they might not fight as much as a whole, I can't think of any of them who go as far out of their way to avoid roughstuff as Johan does.

Edited June 29, 2009 by micah

[BlakKy 58]

Besides the vikings were the biggest bad asses ever just about... many of Swedish origin. Can't blame Franzen's inadequacies on his heritage.

[egroen 384]

Where's Lilja from?

Would you believe Franzen and Lilja were the same height and weight if you only watched their play and knew nothing else of them?

Franzen actually plays bigger than Lilja (it helps that he is a much better skater, so his hits and charges are delivered at much greater velocity). He just does not fight.

Europeans, as a general rule, do not fight -- and when they do, they suck at it. Experience is often more important than actual size in a fight.

Look, Franzen plays a great game and I've never denied that. The fact is, he chooses to be coward on the ice. I appreciate the skill he brings to the game, but I cannot for the life of me fathom why a man his size is such a consistant diver and habitual turtle when anyone with a flyswatter comes near him. I don't expect him to be a great fighter, I expect him to not crap his pants when he's forced into a scrap. It isn't about being North american or Swedish or Polish. Datsyuk is European and far more skilled than Franzen, he's also smaller and less likely to dive. He will, when he has to, fight back. Blaming Franzen's cowardice on his being from Seden is not being very nice to Swedes. While they might not fight as much as a whole, I can't think of any of them who go as far out of their way to avoid roughstuff as Johan does.

Fighting is pretty much not allowed in european leagues (did you not know this???). It has nothing to do with nationality, but simply the leagues these guys were brought up in.

Plop him as a kid in Canada and I bet he grows up playing hockey with the expectation that fighting is a big part of the game, and you would have a player you wouldn't feel obligated to hate -- but then the Wings would never have a chance at him because he would go much, much earlier in the draft.

You have bagged on Datsyuk constantly for being a "*****" -- but again, some of us are simply thrilled the Wings were able to pick up such a gem so late in the draft.

Ryan Getzlaf went late in the draft, for a North American with his size and skills, because he had character issues and a poor work ethic. How late in the draft? 19th overall.

The last time the Wings had a pick that high (and not through the lottery) was in 1991 -- and they picked Martin LaPointe with the 10th overall pick. That is when players like that are drafted.

Edited June 29, 2009 by egroen

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Funny talk from the guys who think Nash is a power forward. Three career fights and an average of 69 hits per season over the last 3 seasons, and just 43 hits in a fourth season where he played 54 games.

Call me crazy, but if you're a power forward, you should at least be able to average a hit per game.

[BlakKy 58]

So I take it you're not a fan of Dale Hunter

I can understand why many would hate the guy - he was always playing the game borderline dirty to plain outright dirty...But heh - it's hockey from the 80's/90's...I'd love to have him in a Red Wings sweater when we face a team like the Ducks.

Another guy whom the Wings had that would fit the power forward mould was Adam Graves.

One of my least favourite players.. ever.

He is the coach and assistant GM of my town's OHL team. I go see plenty of games to see guys like Kane, Perry, Kadri and Tavares play but even all of that awesomeness is tainted by the fact that these kids are taught dirty Hockey by Dale and his bro. Mark.

[Heaton 1]

I love the attitude: He's big therefore he should fight.

[titanium2 867]

I love the attitude: He's big therefore he should fight.

That might be the OP's attitude.

I'm more of the, "he's a Red Wing and therefore no 23 year old kid should ever have to scream at him to get up off the ice." I don't really care if Franzen's fights or not. In fact, I'd be happy if he was more of a pacifist like Lidstrom and Zetterberg and just tied up a guy during a scrum until he calmed down. Just don't exhit any moronic behavior associated with wussiness that would require a ref calling you out on diving or flopping after contact.

[egroen 384]

Franzen was drafted 97th....

Over 90% of the power forwards listed in this thread are North Americans. Coincidence?

Look at where they were drafted as well:

Shanahan #2

Iginla #11

Nash #1

Lindros #1

Neely #9

Bobby Ryan #2

Hartnell #6

Getzlaf #19

Ott #25

Morrow #25

Perry #28

Tkachuk #19

Dustin Brown #13

Lucic #50

Probert #46

Detroit, as long as they are towards the top of the league standings, is going to have very little shot at getting these type of players.

So you can either start hoping Detroit starts finishing at the bottom of the league, or be happy with the late rounds picks they do uncover.

Or find a new team to cheer for.

[titanium2 867]

Or find a new team to cheer for.

Look, the OP is all about outward manliness. It's his general rule. He's not going like any behavior exhibited from any Red Wings that make them look weak, possibly because the Wings are his favorite team and if the Wings look weak then he looks weak or whatever.

However, he does appreciate Franzen's skill. It's just secondary to his preference for toughness. That's all. To each their own.

[Guest micah]

I love the attitude: He's big therefore he should fight.

Who's attitude is that?

My attitude is that he's big enough that he ought not be a coward. Nobody makes him dive, he chooses to. He doesn't have to fight, but if he's going to continue getting in the occasional fight by virtue of the game he plays, I wish he would start, you know, fighting instead of flopping. Don't whack at a goalie after a whistle, don't check from behind and don't jaw after the whistle if you're unwilling to back it up.

Dats has really impressed me in recent years,he's put on muscle and he plays with an edge he didn't have when hecwas younger. Good on him.

[egroen 384]

Dats has really impressed me in recent years,he's put on muscle and he plays with an edge he didn't have when hecwas younger. Good on him.

It was only a couple months ago when you were still calling Datsyuk a "*****". You also ridiculed anyone who brought up the exact same point you just made.

Man, you crack me up.

[eva unit zero 271]

Given what has been posted in this thread so far, the definition of a power forward is:

Big, strong forward who uses this size to forecheck, backcheck, and generally intimidate opponents. The power forward also has decent skills and can capitalize on scoring opportunity if he is playing in a scoring role. Finally, a power forward is willing to fight and to stand up for his team.

Given that definition, the Wings had one player this past season who actually fits every aspect of the definition; Tomas Kopecky.

The Wings had many forwards who fit most of those aspects, but Kopecky is the only one who fits all of them.

[egroen 384]

Given what has been posted in this thread so far, the definition of a power forward is:

Big, strong forward who uses this size to forecheck, backcheck, and generally intimidate opponents. The power forward also has decent skills and can capitalize on scoring opportunity if he is playing in a scoring role. Finally, a power forward is willing to fight and to stand up for his team.

Given that definition, the Wings had one player this past season who actually fits every aspect of the definition; Tomas Kopecky.

The Wings had many forwards who fit most of those aspects, but Kopecky is the only one who fits all of them.

Minus the "intimidate" part.

Kopecky is about as frightening as Bettman in a clown suit.

Never mind, that is scary as hell.

[DatsyukownzU13 1]

They don't have to drop their gloves constantly - none of the players I mentioned fought more than 10 times a year consistantly throughout their carreers. You do have to be willing and able to fight to be a power forward though. I expect power forwards to be spot-pickers. They aren't just there to fight....but when they turn down fights it's because that fight is not in the best interest of the team at that momment, not because they're scared.

Shanahan. Iginla. Neely. Franzen. One doesn't belong.

Iginla is more tan than the rest of them?

[pockets 9]

just cuz your big doesnt mean you could be a fighter both Koko and Lils fought and got hurt and we arnt talking minor injuries id rather have a guy like Koko, Malts or Abby fight before Franzen losing one of them while yeah it would suck it wouldnt suck as much as losing Franzen

when Hossa fought yeah it was cool he fought but had he gotten seriously injured i would have and several ppl on LGW would be upset cuz its not his job to fight hes there to score goals

id like to see us with a guy who could fight but not a goon i want players like drake

and Otts not a PF he dives and hes dirty

[Guest micah]

It was only a couple months ago when you were still calling Datsyuk a "*****". You also ridiculed anyone who brought up the exact same point you just made.

Man, you crack me up.

If I called dats a ***** 2 months ago, I was wrong. Sometimes I'm wrong.

Now, instead of saying "but but but in this one othervthread you said something rediculous" focus you attention on explaining exactly why Franzen has shown such an apparent fear of other hockey players when his countrymen don't.

Also, what % of NHL forwards since 1980 have been Swedes? That might have something to do with their seeming underrepresentation here. Most Swedes are not as gutless as Franzen.

As far as why I appreciate the players I do has to do with my youth, white suppremcists, and the kind of men I admire and the kind of man I wanted to/want to be - the kind that never talks s*** he won't back up, the kind that will gladly risk everything he has to stick up for a friend in need. Will add more tomorrow, too long a story to type on the iPhone. Suffice to say, I have no qualms with pacifists, I have qualms with cowards and with people who are only tough when they're not at risk of getting pummled.

Edited June 29, 2009 by micah

[pockets 9]

If I called dats a ***** 2 months ago, I was wrong. Sometimes I'm wrong.

Now, instead of saying "but but but in this one othervthread you said something rediculous" focus you attention on explaining exactly why Franzen has shown such an apparent fear of other hockey players when his countrymen don't.

Also, what % of NHL cowards since 1980 have been Swedes? That might have something to do with their seeming underrepresentation here. Most Swedes are not as gutless as Franzen.

As far as why I appreciate the players I do has to do with my youth, white suppremcists, and the kind of men I admire and the kind of man I wanted to/want to be - the kind that never talks s*** he won't back up, the kind that will gladly risk everything he has to stick up for a friend in need. Will add more tomorrow, too long a story to type on the iPhone. Suffice to say, I have no qualms with pacifists, I have qualms with cowards and with people who are only tough when they're not at risk of getting pummled.

you must not like Malts or Drapes ive seen them boh tagged as divers (maltby more so), Complainers (Draper finish like 5th in a vote by players) and chirpers and neither of them fight

Edited June 29, 2009 by pockets

[The Big Red Machine 0]

Given what has been posted in this thread so far, the definition of a power forward is:

Big, strong forward who uses this size to forecheck, backcheck, and generally intimidate opponents. The power forward also has decent skills and can capitalize on scoring opportunity if he is playing in a scoring role. Finally, a power forward is willing to fight and to stand up for his team.

Given that definition, the Wings had one player this past season who actually fits every aspect of the definition; Tomas Kopecky.

The Wings had many forwards who fit most of those aspects, but Kopecky is the only one who fits all of them.

Who did Kopecky intimidate? I think the definition should be changed to "...is willing and able to fight..." Kopecky was willing to fight, but he got destroyed when he took on Beauchemin. Based on that definition, the Red Wings have no power forwards.

[Guest micah]

you must not like Malts or Drapes ive seen them boh tagged as divers (maltby more so), Complainers (Draper finish like 5th in a vote by players) and chirpers and neither of them fight

I'm okay with Draper, I don't like Maltby at all. Like Franzen, Maltby is a fan of shooting his mouth off, pushing, facewashing etc that he is too chickens*** to back up. If you aren't willing to follow through, just skate back to the bench and shut your mouth. I don't like Sammy either. I do appreciate Kopy, Ablekader, Cleary, Helm, Ozzie etc.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Given what has been posted in this thread so far, the definition of a power forward is:

Big, strong forward who uses this size to forecheck, backcheck, and generally intimidate opponents. The power forward also has decent skills and can capitalize on scoring opportunity if he is playing in a scoring role. Finally, a power forward is willing to fight and to stand up for his team.

Given that definition, the Wings had one player this past season who actually fits every aspect of the definition; Tomas Kopecky.

The Wings had many forwards who fit most of those aspects, but Kopecky is the only one who fits all of them.

1. Back-checking belongs nowhere in the definition of being a powerforward.

2. Kopecky isn't strong, hes not ABLE to fight, and he doesnt intimidate anyone.

I've never seen someone with so much man love for a hockey player without a modicum of talent.

[Guest micah]

As far as why I appreciate the players I do has to do with my youth, white suppremcists, and the kind of men I admire and the kind of man I wanted to/want to be - the kind that never talks s*** he won't back up, the kind that will gladly risk everything he has to stick up for a friend in need. Will add more tomorrow, too long a story to type on the iPhone. Suffice to say, I have no qualms with pacifists, I have qualms with cowards and with people who are only tough when they're not at risk of getting pummled.

Okay, here goes.

When I was a kid, middle school/highschool , I had (like most kids, I s'pose) little patience for activities that I found stale and boring. I craved excitement and adventure, things you just couldn't get on the football team or in band or chess club. I always loved music, and as a teen I found it the perfect way to burn up angst and aggression in a peaceful way. It was the late 80s and early 90s, and hardcore was where it was at. Sure, some kids were into MCHammer or whatever other garbage MTV was feeding the masses at the time, but I didn't think standing in an amphitheatre watching some choreographed lip-syncher dance about for an hour with 15,000 other fans seemed fun. I love the excitement of the basement punk rock shows. Dimly lit, overcrowded, loud as hell, stinky, confusing and dangerous. It was everything that the teenage years are supposed to be about.

Anyway, about people and grit and honesty and toughness. The early 90s WI hardcore scene had a lot of subcultures all rolled into one. There were neo rockabillies, there were the throwback 70s punks, there were the fans of the West Coast bands, Minor Threat and Black Flag and Dead Kennedys, there were straightedgers (again with Minor Threat, also McKaye's later band Fugazi, and all sorts of other stuff. There were also skinheads. Harmless ska-loving skins, SHARPs, and of course, white suppremecist skinheads. The WS Skins were quite common around that time at the places I frequented. We didn't have a sizeable Jewish or Black population, so most of their schtick was just mach posturing, and picking on people who they knew couldn't fight back. Once or twice, I was targetted by them, my crime being showing up with only one or two other friends, far from home. Easy target. I watched these wannabe tough guys mouth off, intimidate, beat up and come awful close to killing innocent people on more than one occasion. I never recieved anything too band, but I did take my lumps. In those years, I witnessed a lot of things and I learned a lot about people.

There are people who want you to think they'retough - they talk smack only when they think it's safe to talk smack - when the odds are in their favor, when the police are nearby, etc.

There are people who want you to think they're brave - they tell you how they have your back and this and that. When the time comes for action, they disapear. "I have school pictures tomorrow, I have to look good for my job, I'm on probation", etc.

Then there's family. Not literal family, but people who are so close to you that they might as well be. these are the only people for me - people who will literally risk their life for what they think is right - for justice, for their fellow man.

I started out avouiding confrontation at all costs. The bad guys were big and scary looking and always had numbers on their side. I didn't get beat up, but I hated myself. I watched innocent strangers and even some friends get their asses kicked. That always hurt.

I've said things I didn't mean to avoid getting busted up myself. (Insert Mea Culpa here if you're a Catholic) after a year or two of this, I changed my ways. I've been on the losing end, standing up for what's right, even when you know you'll get hurt. The biggest surprise to me was how good that felt. Black eyes, sore ribs, stitches. It only hurts for a bit, but the pride makes up for it. I didn't start standing up for myself and for innocent guys because I was badass, I did it because other people (the real badasses) did it first and inspired me. We were teenagers, most of the skins were in their 20s or even older. We were smaller, out-armed, and usually outnumbered. As it turned out, the badguys had no interest in fights that were anything approaching fair. If you stood up to them and did your best, they would back down as often as not. When they didn't back down, sometimes we'd kick their asses. More often then not, we got our asses kicked. There are no people I've ever met that I admire more than they guys who, singled out by these worthless skinheads, stood up for themselves or for other people. With time, things got better. It became clear to these guys that their s*** would not be tollerated, that we would fight them every step of the way. We won, but not until we collectively convinced ourselves that the odds did not apply to us and that we would win every time.

Many men are tough when it's safe to be tough. Very few men are tough when they know they're probably about to get s***kicked in an alley. The latter are better people.

I've seen men, children really, risk their lives to save their friends from reciving a black eye.

I have no tollerance for anyone who talks s*** but won't back it up. I have no tollerance for men who push and shove and posture but won't back it up. I have no tollerance for cowards who are scared of eating a handful of punches for a noble cause. It isn't about machismo - the people I'm takling about don't strut around looking for trouble - it's about freedom from fear and belief in self. It's governed the way I've tried to live my life ever since, and it's dictate the kind of people I surround myself with.

Does that relate to hockey? A bit. It's only a game, it's just entertainment, but there are still heroes and villians. There are strong and there are weak, there are the brave and there are the cowardly. I appreciate the guy who scores pretty goals, he's fun to watch, but I admire the rare man who risks injury to stick up for himself or for a teammate.

The worst offenders, the real objects of my ire, are not the non-fighters. If you don't wanna fight, good for you, don't fight, you can make a strong argument for pacifism....the men I can't stand are those who act tough but refuse to deliver when it's time to make good on their posturing. They have my disdain, and worse yet, my pity. When I was 15 I could relate to them. Not anymore.

There's a clip somewhere of Yzerman checking run from behing into the boards, and almost immediately after, Probert was there, gloves off, ready to make whoever it was pay (Frasier maybe?). Yes, he would get a 2 and a 5. Yes, it would put the team shorthanded. Yes, 1st liner Probie might have broken his hand or his head. All that said, it was the right thing to do. Not talk s***, not issue a warning, not sick our powerplay on them, but take care of business immediatly and without considering the consequnce, because it is the right thing to do as a teammate.

I like pulling for a Cup winning team, but to me, one incidence of risking self to do what's right as a man is better than 1500 Stanley Cups. It isn't macho, it's the very least that should be expected of a family member, friend or teammate.

Edited June 30, 2009 by micah

[Mors 201]

Given what has been posted in this thread so far, the definition of a power forward is:

Big, strong forward who uses this size to forecheck, backcheck, and generally intimidate opponents. The power forward also has decent skills and can capitalize on scoring opportunity if he is playing in a scoring role. Finally, a power forward is willing to fight and to stand up for his team.

Given that definition, the Wings had one player this past season who actually fits every aspect of the definition; Tomas Kopecky.

The Wings had many forwards who fit most of those aspects, but Kopecky is the only one who fits all of them.

Wow ...are you Rich Winter? If not, Kopecky should hire you to help him out on his quest for more money somewhere far from Detroit (hopefully)