Team Russia

[titanium2 867]

I'd name ten, you'd tell me I'm wrong.

You say that as if it wouldn't be fun.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Just so you know, Canada NEVER won a game against Russia/Soviet on Winter Olympics so if I would be Canadian I wouldn't want to face Russia in the medal round.

How does that have any bearing on the 2010 Winter Olympics? Are you aware of some kind of curse or other magical spell that I'm not?

Canada also lost 2 last WCH finals too.

This is more relevant to the situation than the last fact. At least the teams in 2010 will have players in common with the teams involved in the last two WCH finals.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

2nd most points all time, 6 Stanley Cups, one of the greatest warriors of all time. Mess was one of the best, I can only think of Gretzky, Lemieux, and Yzerman being better then him, and I really dont believe much others even have a case.

Messier is highly overrated. Kuri was too- I'd love to see Kuri put those numbers up without Gretzky.

Like Gretzky, Messier was lucky enough to have a career that exactly coincided with the more ridiculously inflated scoring years in NHL history. For a 20 year period the NHL went insane and disregarded the idea of defensive responsibility to create a ludicrously high scoring era where d-men were nothing more than forwards that lined up outside the circle at centre ice. Look at the 50 goal scorers from that era and compare them to the 50 goal scorers from any other era-- they were much less skilled (on average) and far more plentiful.

Messier's career, like that of Gretzky, was also marked by an amazing lack of serious time lost to injuries, which helps him have a better career point total than Yzerman and Lemieux.

In the end the only guy who played more games on the top scoring list is Howe, and he played in the eras where 8-7 games would make people s*** a brick. Messier was blessed by a retardedly long, relatively injury free career that directly coincided with the highest scoring seasons of the NHL's history.

So, in summary- f*** Messier.

[stillwater 186]

So, in summary- f*** Messier.

You realize that to "Newfy" that translates as 'f*** Canada', right?

[sibiriak 84]

This is going to come across arrogant most likely but youre just begging me to act like this it seems. When you think back on the past and hockey's greats I don't think you can name 6 people from the world combined that are better then Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Yzerman or Orr. I know it sounds arrogant but you kind of asked for it

2 questions:

Does the "world" include Canada?

Define "better". If I tell you of players who never played in the NHL and who you probably never heard of, how can you judge if they are "better" than the 5 Canadian greats you listed?

Just for the fun of it, from Russia only - players who I regard as being just as good as the ones you listed: Kharlamov, Bobrov, Mikhailov, Fetisov, Larionov, Vasiliev, Firsov, Loktev, Aleksandrov, Ragulin, Tretiak, Yakushev, S. Makarov. (EDIT How could I forget Alexander Maltsev!) Remember, I'm talking about their whole careers, not just the NHL part.

Edited July 17, 2009 by sibiriak

[eva unit zero 271]

I would like to see this list of 10 centers better then Messier. If you can make a list of 10 centers better then Messier I will stop posting on these forums so you won't have to deal with my "Canada is better than everyone else, so anyone who doesn't submit to Canada sucks" posting attitude." I was backing up my statements with facts so I think most of them were justified, there's nothing wrong with a little disagreement in a conversation.

Not including Gretzky, Lemieux, or Yzerman, 10 Canadian centers better than Messier:

1) Jean Beliveau

2) Phil Esposito

3) Howie Morenz

4) Marcel Dionne

5) Elmer Lach

6) Nels Stewart

7) Henri Richard

8) Bobby Clarke

9) Bryan Trottier

10) Ron Francis

Very close to Messier: Joe Sakic, Alex Delvecchio, Sid Abel.

[eva unit zero 271]

2 questions:

Does the "world" include Canada?

Define "better". If I tell you of players who never played in the NHL and who you probably never heard of, how can you judge if they are "better" than the 5 Canadian greats you listed?

Just for the fun of it, from Russia only - players who I regard as being just as good as the ones you listed: Kharlamov, Bobrov, Mikhailov, Fetisov, Larionov, Vasiliev, Firsov, Loktev, Aleksandrov, Ragulin, Tretiak, Yakushev, S. Makarov. (EDIT How could I forget Alexander Maltsev!) Remember, I'm talking about their whole careers, not just the NHL part.

He's going to scoff at your suggestion, despite the fact that Tretiak is perhaps the only goaltender who can be considered on the same level as Sawchuk or Brodeur.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

He's going to scoff at your suggestion, despite the fact that Tretiak is perhaps the only goaltender who can be considered on the same level as Sawchuk or Brodeur.

Ummm... so you don't think there's a good argument that Hasek, Roy or Dryden are on the same level as Tretiak, Sawchuk and Brodeur?

[DRWFS83 0]

Kovalev won't make the team, Bykov does not like the man. That much is almost guaranteed.

Also I don't see Yashin making it. Other than that the first post is pretty much spot on at first glance.

[newfy 695]

You realize that to "Newfy" that translates as 'f*** Canada', right?

No it doesn't. I'm not some die hard Messier fan he can have his opinion on why Mess had such a great career and how he was lucky to have it. Fact of the matter is regardless of what era he played in, he was a cornerstone on 6 stanley cup winning teams and is 2nd all time in points.

I don't see what the big deal is to you, I've backed up every statement that I've made with facts and defended what I think is right. You think it came across as arrogant but I haven't seen much from you that has backed up anything you've said. Come to me with some facts and maybe I would change my mind but until then I'm going to stay with this opinion.

[newfy 695]

He's going to scoff at your suggestion, despite the fact that Tretiak is perhaps the only goaltender who can be considered on the same level as Sawchuk or Brodeur.

No I'm not going to scoff at his suggestion. At least someone is bringing an argument about why they think I'm wrong. And I'll agree with him its a shame that those players mostly weren't seen in the NHL. Gretzky himself said Larionov was the best player he was ever on the ice against.

[DRWFS83 0]

No I'm not going to scoff at his suggestion. At least someone is bringing an argument about why they think I'm wrong. And I'll agree with him its a shame that those players mostly weren't seen in the NHL. Gretzky himself said Larionov was the best player he was ever on the ice against.

Link?

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

He's going to scoff at your suggestion, despite the fact that Tretiak is perhaps the only goaltender who can be considered on the same level as Sawchuk or Brodeur.

Uhh, Hasek? Roy? Both are easily on the same level.

As far as the Messier thing, I thought Mess made a bad rep for himself in Vancouver, but I was always a fan of his. Just from my opinion, I'd take him over anyone on that list except for Esposito, Clark and Trottier. I just loved watching him in the playoffs from the past, he didnt fight, but he was a tough SOB.

Edited July 18, 2009 by Detroit # 1 Fan

[newfy 695]

Not including Gretzky, Lemieux, or Yzerman, 10 Canadian centers better than Messier:

1) Jean Beliveau

2) Phil Esposito

3) Howie Morenz

4) Marcel Dionne

5) Elmer Lach

6) Nels Stewart

7) Henri Richard

8) Bobby Clarke

9) Bryan Trottier

10) Ron Francis

Very close to Messier: Joe Sakic, Alex Delvecchio, Sid Abel.

Seriously? Ron Francis is not better then Messier you've gotta be joking. How much did Marcel Dionne ever win in his career by the way?

[stillwater 186]

I don't see what the big deal is to you, I've backed up every statement that I've made with facts and defended what I think is right.

You've got your list of 10 centers better than Messier. Will you follow through on your promise?

I would like to see this list of 10 centers better then Messier. If you can make a list of 10 centers better then Messier I will stop posting on these forums.

[newfy 695]

You've got your list of 10 centers better than Messier. Will you follow through on your promise?

My promise was if they were better then Messier I would stop posting. That is a list of 10 great centers but tell me how the hell you think Ron Francis is better then Messier. Or how Marcel Dionne winning nothing in his career makes him better then Messier?

[eva unit zero 271]

My promise was if they were better then Messier I would stop posting. That is a list of 10 great centers but tell me how the hell you think Ron Francis is better then Messier. Or how Marcel Dionne winning nothing in his career makes him better then Messier?

Marcel Dionne carried s***ty teams on his own his whole career. Ron Francis was one of the highest scorers in the league most of his career, even though he spent the first half of it as basically the only first-liner on his team. Francis is also one of the best two-way players ever, and the best faceoff man I've ever seen.

Trottier and Clarke played the same style as Messier, but better.

Nels Stewart was a dominant offensive center who was big and physically dominant as well.

Howie Morenz, Jean Beliveau, Henri Richard, and Elmer Lach all were Montreal centers who dominated their eras offensively, played strong defense, and won many championships.

In fact, Dionne and Francis are the only guys on that list, along with Messier, who did not win at least half of their championships as the top center on the team. And with Dionne and Francis, it is because they played many of their better seasons on teams that belonged at the bottom of the league but instead made the playoffs. Messier, on the other hand, got to spend his best years playing on the second line on a team full of All-Stars. Messier had one "great" season before the Oilers were completely dismantled and he got to play with Gretzky's wingers. After that, he was traded out of Edmonton and his performances never even came close to what they were in Edmonton.

Could it be that Messier, while a great player himself, also benefitted from the presence of the great players he was playing with? Sure as hell looks like it. Other players on this list may have played with great players, but were often just as good. For example; Maurice Richard scored 50 goals in 50 games, the first player to score 50 goals in the NHL. This is brought up constantly as proof of how great the Rocket was. More interesting about that season? Elmer Lach was his center that season, and Elmer Lach was also the Hart trophy winner that season as the NHL's (and Montreal's) most valuable player. Very interesting indeed.

[skacore 2]

Not including Gretzky, Lemieux, or Yzerman, 10 Canadian centers better than Messier:

1) Jean Beliveau

2) Phil Esposito

3) Howie Morenz

4) Marcel Dionne

5) Elmer Lach

6) Nels Stewart

7) Henri Richard

8) Bobby Clarke

9) Bryan Trottier

10) Ron Francis

Very close to Messier: Joe Sakic, Alex Delvecchio, Sid Abel.

what a joke

[newfy 695]

Marcel Dionne carried s***ty teams on his own his whole career. Ron Francis was one of the highest scorers in the league most of his career, even though he spent the first half of it as basically the only first-liner on his team. Francis is also one of the best two-way players ever, and the best faceoff man I've ever seen.

Trottier and Clarke played the same style as Messier, but better.

Nels Stewart was a dominant offensive center who was big and physically dominant as well.

Howie Morenz, Jean Beliveau, Henri Richard, and Elmer Lach all were Montreal centers who dominated their eras offensively, played strong defense, and won many championships.

In fact, Dionne and Francis are the only guys on that list, along with Messier, who did not win at least half of their championships as the top center on the team. And with Dionne and Francis, it is because they played many of their better seasons on teams that belonged at the bottom of the league but instead made the playoffs. Messier, on the other hand, got to spend his best years playing on the second line on a team full of All-Stars. Messier had one "great" season before the Oilers were completely dismantled and he got to play with Gretzky's wingers. After that, he was traded out of Edmonton and his performances never even came close to what they were in Edmonton.

Could it be that Messier, while a great player himself, also benefitted from the presence of the great players he was playing with? Sure as hell looks like it. Other players on this list may have played with great players, but were often just as good. For example; Maurice Richard scored 50 goals in 50 games, the first player to score 50 goals in the NHL. This is brought up constantly as proof of how great the Rocket was. More interesting about that season? Elmer Lach was his center that season, and Elmer Lach was also the Hart trophy winner that season as the NHL's (and Montreal's) most valuable player. Very interesting indeed.

Messier played in Gretzky's shadow. Hard to look good when you have the greatest all time on your team. You can argue all you want about how good Dionne is, he didn't win s***. If youre good enough to be considered a top centerman all time you are good enough to bring home some hardware. Messier carried the 94 rangers to their first stanley cup championship in 54 years I'm pretty sure. A Hart trophy, Conn Smythe, Lester B Pearson and 6 Stanley cups, what did Dionne have? If youre truly great you win something

Edited July 19, 2009 by newfy

[eva unit zero 271]

Messier played in Gretzky's shadow. Hard to look good when you have the greatest all time on your team. You can argue all you want about how good Dionne is, he didn't win s***. If youre good enough to be considered a top centerman all time you are good enough to bring home some hardware. Messier carried the 94 rangers to their first stanley cup championship in 54 years I'm pretty sure. A Hart trophy, Conn Smythe, Lester B Pearson and 6 Stanley cups, what did Dionne have? If youre truly great you win something

Dionne won the Lester B. Pearson twice. He won the Art Ross once and was top three five times. Challenged for the Hart several times.

And for reference, Brian Leetch and Mike Richter carried the Rangers to the 94 Cup, not Messier. If Dionne had a Brian Leetch and a Mike Richter in 79-80, he would have won the Division playoffs in 1982 and challenged for the Cup.

Messier had 6 Cup rings over 11 seasons. You know who else had a bunch of Cup rings? Jiri Hrdina. He scored 130 points in 250 games over 6 seasons, and 7 points in 46 playoff games. Hrdina only played 4 seasons where he saw more than 20 games. He ended up with 3 Cup rings. How great was Hrdina? Messier won the Conn Smythe in 83-84...but I don't think he was the Oilers' best player that playoff as he was worse at both ends than Kurri and was far behind Gretzky in scoring, plus Fuhr's performance in net was impressive. Regardless, that's the only playoff he's even arguable for that honor. So we can agree that neither player was arguable as the team's best player for most if not all of their Cup wins. Does that mean Jiri Hrdina's Cup winning seasons time in the league was as good as Mark Messier's? Hrdina also won these three Cups in 6 seasons after the age of 30; how many more would he have won had he come over sooner?

Cups are definitely an important accomplishment...but winning Cups or not are not the ONLY thing in determining whether or not a player was great, especially if he played as a supporting player on what many consider the greatest team of all time.

[mackel 681]

I am going to preface this with an apology to the mods.

You, newfy, are the most arrogant little piece of s*** I have met on these boards in a LONG time. Please try to tone it down.

Sounds like the truth hurt you a bit...

[eva unit zero 271]

Sounds like the truth hurt you a bit...

I don't care about his opinion on whether Canada produces better hockey players. But stating "nicer people" and "better beer" as facts that make Canada better is simple arrogance, not truth.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Messier played in Gretzky's shadow. Hard to look good when you have the greatest all time on your team. You can argue all you want about how good Dionne is, he didn't win s***. If youre good enough to be considered a top centerman all time you are good enough to bring home some hardware. Messier carried the 94 rangers to their first stanley cup championship in 54 years I'm pretty sure. A Hart trophy, Conn Smythe, Lester B Pearson and 6 Stanley cups, what did Dionne have? If youre truly great you win something

I happen to know for a fact that Messier never played with Orr or Lemieux. I'm not sure how you managed to make that mistake.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

I don't care about his opinion on whether Canada produces better hockey players. But stating "nicer people" and "better beer" as facts that make Canada better is simple arrogance, not truth.

Woh. I'm with you in all of your posts so far in this thread, but to presume that the watered down garbage beer they sell in the US isn't inferior to the nectar of the gods sold in Canada? Wow. Weak. And who's nicer? Is that even an argument? Last guy who asked for directions in NY got gang raped by a group of angry toddlers.

[cr00d 26]

Woh. I'm with you in all of your posts so far in this thread, but to presume that the watered down garbage beer they sell in the US isn't inferior to the nectar of the gods sold in Canada? Wow. Weak. And who's nicer? Is that even an argument? Last guy who asked for directions in NY got gang raped by a group of angry toddlers.

Jul 19, 2009 08:45 AM

Madeleine White

Staff Reporter - Tronto Star

An 18-year-old man is dead after an early morning shooting at a house party in eastern Scarborough.

The victim was found suffering from a gunshot wound to the stomach and collapsed on the driveway of a home on Rouge Hills Dr., shortly after 2 a.m. today.

Emergency crews rushed him to hospital where he later died.

At the scene, police interviewed a number of partygoers and scoured the front yard, where they found two shell casings, said Staff Sgt. Jim Mackrell.

There is no word yet on the number of suspects police are looking for or what led to the shooting.

Turns out nasty s*** happens here in Canada as well.. who'd a thunk it?

This thread was meant to discuss Team Russia... not "who's nicer and has better beer - US or Canada", and not "who's better than Messier."

Let's keep this thread on track folks.