NHL Investigating Hossa & Pronger's contracts

[miller76 463]

Sorry, I just noticed there was a few people talking about this in the Hossa thread.

[edicius 3,269]

Another difference between the Hossa/Pronger and Franzen/Zetterberg contracts is the fact that the former are long-term contracts on new teams. For Franzen and Zetterberg, the Wings are the only NHL team they've known and a "lifetime" contract somehow makes more sense there. Look at Ovechkin's contract, same thing. Even Dipietro, despite the idiocy of his contract given his injury issues.

I admit, it probably has nothing to do with these investigations, but it makes an odd kind of sense, to me at least.

[deetroit dario 27]

I more I think about this...He did say on his Twitter account that the "truth" will be coming out about what happened in Chicago!! haha!

Oh the conspiracy theorist in me loves this.

"HAVLAT"...the new film by Oliver Stone. (rated R)

[CupCrazy22 6]

Another difference between the Hossa/Pronger and Franzen/Zetterberg contracts is the fact that the former are long-term contracts on new teams. For Franzen and Zetterberg, the Wings are the only NHL team they've known and a "lifetime" contract somehow makes more sense there. Look at Ovechkin's contract, same thing. Even Dipietro, despite the idiocy of his contract given his injury issues.

I admit, it probably has nothing to do with these investigations, but it makes an odd kind of sense, to me at least.

Agreed.

[Louisville 112]

Another difference between the Hossa/Pronger and Franzen/Zetterberg contracts is the fact that the former are long-term contracts on new teams. For Franzen and Zetterberg, the Wings are the only NHL team they've known and a "lifetime" contract somehow makes more sense there. Look at Ovechkin's contract, same thing. Even Dipietro, despite the idiocy of his contract given his injury issues.

I admit, it probably has nothing to do with these investigations, but it makes an odd kind of sense, to me at least.

Pretty much what I was going to say but you nailed it. A team talking about early retirement in contract negotiations is not only unethical but also a really unfair way to go about free agency.

[Lovin Jiri Fischer 147]

To all the people thinking the Blackhawks did nothing wrong:

How is signing a person on paper for 12 years but telling him in reality that he will only play for about 9 years right/legal? If a team signs a player for a certain amount of years but does not intend to follow that contract, that is not right. That is called being deceitful and pretty much lying on paper. It's one thing for a player to think about retirement when he comes to a certain age and his body isn't working the way he wanted it to. But it's a completely different thing for a player to sign a contract fully knowing he will be retiring before the contract is up.

[55fan 5,133]

To all the people thinking the Blackhawks did nothing wrong:

How is signing a person on paper for 12 years but telling him in reality that he will only play for about 9 years right/legal? If a team signs a player for a certain amount of years but does not intend to follow that contract, that is not right. That is called being deceitful and pretty much lying on paper. It's one thing for a player to think about retirement when he comes to a certain age and his body isn't working the way he wanted it to. But it's a completely different thing for a player to sign a contract fully knowing he will be retiring before the contract is up.

And there's the weight on the see-saw. Did they talk about it? Is there an understanding? If so, then it was as you said.

If not, then it is perfectly legal. I'm sure that any front-loaded multi-year contract is signed with both sides acknowledging that something might happen where a player might not fulfill the full contract. I'm sure all of the "what if's" go through their heads and might even be discussed in the theoretical. What if Z's back flares up again and he's forced to retire at 34? What if Hossa gets traded with a couple of years left on his contract to a team whose owner wants to dip less into his pockets and has spare cap space?

What it all boils down to is what was said. There's a world of difference between "Ya know, Dale, I might not be able to finish this contract if my shoulder bothers me when I'm old." and "Here's the deal, Marian. We sign you to this deal, but you're gonna retire at some point after you're 38. We'll let you know if we need cap space or if you're not playing up to snuff."

What I don't get is why Pronger's deal is being investigated. Did they decide to take away his next birthday?

[edicius 3,269]

What I don't get is why Pronger's deal is being investigated. Did they decide to take away his next birthday?

They're just panicking about him being in the Pacific Division and being able to rough up the Golden Boy six times a season.

[RedFX 48]

How are we not getting investigated?

Oh well, who cares

[Grim 5]

i suppose the league is deeming the age of 40 (for Zetteberg) as being reasonable and 42 (for Hossa) as not.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Two extra years may not sound like a big deal, but they are when you are already 40 years-old.

It is much easier to make a case that Zetterberg and Franzen will be playing at 40 in the final years of their contracts (Detroit points to Lidstrom, Chelios, Yzerman, Larionov, Hull, Thomas, Hasek, etc... ) than Hossa will be at the age of 42 (Chicago points to ????).

Those two extra years Hossa has stacked ON TOP of Zetterberg's and Franzen's bring his cap hit down by almost $1m per year.

All three contracts are obviously trying to circumvent the cap - but one goes a good distance beyond the other two.

You're reaching friend. You need to take of the homer glasses. 2 years is practically irrelevant. We're talking about 40 year old players. What percentage of players play into their 40's? I'd say its incredibly small likelihood than any player will play into his 40's.

The plain truth is the Hawks have followed Ken Holland's masterful loophole-ing of the CBA. There is ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE between what we did for Franzen and Z and what Chicago did with Hossa in regards to setting the contract up. Years, money, blah, blah....it's the same principle.

As you stated earlier though, if they colluded beforehand, that is a different story. And frankly, I don't doubt for a second that Holland, Z and Franzen didn't "talk" about the potential of playing those final years either. I don't put anything past anybody.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

i suppose the league is deeming the age of 40 (for Zetteberg) as being reasonable and 42 (for Hossa) as not.

That seems to be Egroen's argument and I disagree 100% with it. How many players reach age 40 and continue to play? The likelihood that you'll play to 42 is obviously very small. IMO, the difference between that and 40 is like the difference between a 89 year old man and an 87 year old man. There is no difference, they're both ******* old.

In the end, unless they find a fraggin' videotape or tape recorded conversation where Tallon, Hossa or somebody says he's not going to play out the contract and they're just trying to "circumvent the cap", nothing is going to come of this.

And frankly, nothing should. The Wings are no better than anyone else. We took advantage of the loophole and now the Hawks have.

The fact that some Wings fans will say anything to legitimize the Z and Franzen contracts and refuse to acknowledge that any impropriety could have occurred, yet waste no time pointing fingers at another organization for doing the same thing and deciding in their heads that something bad/illegal must have gone down, just shows that even in the dullness of July/August, homers are still homers.

I really hate homers.

[Snazzy 0]

The contract between Chicago and Hossa isn't the issue. The issue is did they have a gentleman's agreement under the table about early retirement? That's what is under investigation. Apparently there is a disgruntled rat in the Chicago with the inside scoop, and ratted it out. Chicago has so much front office issues that it's not even funny, it could infect the entire team if not taken care of immediately.

Can NHL gather enough information to penalize Chicago? It's hard to say, this isn't the court of law... so maybe hear-say (in addition to the suspicious looking contract) is sufficient enough evidence to escalate the matter.

Then again, this could just be a bluff to make other GMs weary about long term (front loaded) contracts. But one thing is for sure, this puts a damper on Chicago's next years RFA signings. They are under the scope and won't be able to pull off Toews, Keith and Kane with front loaded contracts like they had originally planned.

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

The contract between Chicago and Hossa isn't the issue. The issue is did they have a gentleman's agreement under the table about early retirement? That's what is under investigation. Apparently there is a disgruntled rat in the Chicago with the inside scoop, and ratted it out. Chicago has so much front office issues that it's not even funny, it could infect the entire team if not taken care of immediately.

Can NHL gather enough information to penalize Chicago? It's hard to say, this isn't the court of law... so maybe hear-say (in addition to the suspicious looking contract) is sufficient enough evidence to escalate the matter.

Then again, this could just be a bluff to make other GMs weary about long term (front loaded) contracts. But one thing is for sure, this puts a damper on Chicago's next years RFA signings. They are under the scope and won't be able to pull off Toews, Keith and Kane with front loaded contracts like they had originally planned.

This. While I'm sure it was Implied that Z or Franzen would retire earlier then their contracts would go, Stan Bowman most proabably flat out said it. It is no secret that Talon wanted to Re-up Havlat instead of Hossa, but was overpowered by Bowman and Co. Talon or Havlat most probably ratted as a nice little f*** you on the way out.

[stillwater 186]

It is no secret that Talon wanted to Re-up Havlat instead of Hossa, but was overpowered by Bowman and Co. Talon or Havlat most probably ratted as a nice little f*** you on the way out.

That's a nice little conspiracy theory, however unlikely ... because, Tallon is still employed by the Hawks as far as I know, and Havlat would not be privvy to the Hossa negotiations.

[Kira 451]

Hmmm...the plot thickens.

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

That's a nice little conspiracy theory, however unlikely ... because, Tallon is still employed by the Hawks as far as I know, and Havlat would not be privvy to the Hossa negotiations.

Hmm, I guess that dampens the Talon talk, however remember Havlat's twitter saying "The truth will soon be revealed on what happaned in Chicago"? Perhaps Havlat then. Or maybe im just drunk and spouting out conspiracy theories

[Nicklin3011 0]

Tallon still works for the Hawks....why would he say something lol

Either was a Hawk fan...this is the NHL's fault the whole Cap system is a mess. If we had any type of Commish...no team would have to worry about signing a guy 44 years to help solve cap issues. If teams like PHX just make 1 freaking dollar and are in the positive side and not the red the cap goes up. Its unbelievable. A lot of decent players are out of jobs becuase of the friggin cap and Bettman being a moron.

[Doc Holiday 0]

Wait, there isn't a difference between 40 and 42?

Two years is a BIG DEAL when it comes to sports. It is like saying that Filpulla will not change very much in two years from now, or that Lidstrom will not get much worse in two years.

[jeff48109 474]

our guys can say they played with Cheli and are inspired to play till they are 46!

[thedisappearer 291]

A lot of decent players are out of jobs becuase of the friggin cap and Bettman being a moron.

Such as?

[Tommy_Like_Wingy 25]

I don't think the Hawks or Flyers should be penalized for this. If the organization has a problem with this then they need to amend the CBA and warn teams that these signings will no longer be allowed and the CBA should be very specific regarding these situations.

[Lidstrom for life 20]

I seriously doubt anything will actually come of this but still its very funny I also don't really think what Chicago did is very different from what we did but I think the biggest difference between Zetterberg's deal and Hossa's deal is that Z has 2 "discount" years thrown in at the end which drops his cap hit a little, Hossa has 4 discount years on the end of his contract which drops his cap hit a lot.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Wait, there isn't a difference between 40 and 42?

Two years is a BIG DEAL when it comes to sports. It is like saying that Filpulla will not change very much in two years from now, or that Lidstrom will not get much worse in two years.

I'd like to see how many 40 year olds are playing/played and how many 42 year olds are playing/played.

If you can show me that its some significant difference, then I'll gladly shut up. But since you can't or won't. Well, let's just say I think i'm right and you're wrong.

tell you what, I went ahead and did the work for ya

Currently there is only 1 skater on an active NHL roster who has reached age 40 (Mark Recchi-he's 41 actually, so closer to 42 than 40 by the way)

The 39 year old club includes

Selanne

Modano

Lidstrom

Blake

2 guys that could end up on NHL rosters are Shanahan (40) and Chelios (46 or 47)

So is the conspiracy crowd really going to hang their hat around the idea the there is a drastic age difference between 40 and 42 for NHL players? I contend that it is such a miniscule number of players that it's absurd to even be concerned about.

Seriously, of what, 800+ NHLers we have one guy on a roster who is closer to 42 than 40 by the way, another guy who is closer to 50 than 40 and 4 actives that will reach age 40 this year barring mishap/injury.

Lidstrom has already stated he wants to keep playing past 40.

Shanahan may catch on and wind up on a team as a 41 year old

Chelly may catch on as a 47 year old

My point is it's just as likely a player can play to 42 as it is they'll play to age 40. In a raw number sense, of course their may be 5 or 6 guys who play until they are 40 and only 2 or 3 at the most who play until 42.

Is that really enough to base a conspiracy off of? That it's just SOOOOOOOO much more likely to play until 40 versus 42?

I don't see it. IMO, the odds of playing until you hit the number 40 are so infinitesimally small that you really can't base anything off that versus age 42. So to claim some collusion merely because Hossa's contract would take him to a slightly later age is ridiculous. He probably has as much likelihood of playing to 42 as he does to 40. Which I would put at like .008 percent or something. Or TOO ******* SMALL of a difference to mean anything.

Edited August 2, 2009 by GordieSid&Ted

[Doc Holiday 0]

The burden of proof lies with you so do the leg work please.

I'd like to see how many 40 year olds are playing/played and how many 42 year olds are playing/played.

If you can show me that its some significant difference, then I'll gladly shut up. But since you can't or won't. Well, let's just say I think i'm right and you're wrong.

For starters, Steve Yzerman was 41 when he retired.

Shanahan is currently 40.

Fedorov is turning 40 this year and ended his career in the NHL.

Lidstrom is going to be 40 this coming April.

Hasek had originally retired at 38 (this first time).

Bob Probert was under 40 when he retired.

The Great One retired before 40.

Larry Murphy retired at 40.

Dallas Drake retired at 39.

Claude Lemeix retired at 38. (came back in his 40s)

Larionov is the first one to come to mind who retired at 43.

Chelios is still playing at 45 and is currently the second oldest NHLer to play.

Not substantial proof, but the majority of players that I found either retired before 40 or stopped at 40. Unfortunately that doesn't give the Holland contracts a great rap, but the odds are still much better for Holland's contract than for Tallon's.