Goon

[StevieY9802 6]

We're somewhat on same page, but not completely. Who was it that was on the team in 07/08 that you'd consider a "tough guy?" Drake as well as a part-time Mac and Downey don't really count in my book when compared to the others you listed. It was no different than last year, yet one year we have a Cup to show for it and the other we ended up one game shy.

All this being said, I'd take a Drake-type of player any day for the 4th line.

Yup I'm there with you. Drake would have been the closest thing but he was just a 4th line checker. He played a role but that was it. I don't get all the people who say the Wings NEED a figher or enforcer or goon or whatever you want to call them. This team has gone to the 3rd round, won the cup and lost in game 7 the last 3 straight years without one. So they don't NEED one. While I would like to have a guy who can bring some physical play and yet still play a checker type role those guys are tough to come by and the Wings seem to be looking for offense first right now.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

So even though you watch this team win without any emphasis on fighting, you still push for this team to have fighters. It's too bad, if you're not religious, that you can't see that this is absolutely 100% the same as one, since religion only relies on subjective beliefs [fighters] and not at all on objectivity [this team does well without them]. And I get the feeling you're only cheering as a concession in hopes that one day this team emphasizes fighting again -- which it hasn't really done in.. well over 10 years. I guess simply liking your team unconditionally, as well as putting trust in a person who delivers results (a far cry from 'faith' itself) such as Kenny, is a lot to ask.

I was up for having a discussion with ya, until that. Your calling me out as fan, just because I'd prefer a couple tougher guys plugging the 3rd/4th lines then the ones there in the past (Sammy, Hudler, Kopecky) suddenly, I'm only cheering in concession. I do love the team, unconditionally? I try my best, sometimes you dont have to be Mr Positive all the time. If they lose, it's ok to be pissed, but your still a fan. Your still cheering the next game, you dont give up. I do trust Kenny, but he isnt God like many make him out to be, he's won Cups, and he's also screwed up, he's human.

[skacore 2]

The game has changed and you haven't. The NHL is more popular now than it ever was.

Maybe it's time for you to move on.

The Stanley Cup Champions, who already had Eric Godard (one of the best enforcers in the league) on their '09 team just picked up New Jersey's '09 enforcer Mike Rupp, and Carolina's '09 enforcer Wade Brookbank before going into '10 to defend their title. Your thoughts on the subject, sir???

[Guest Shoreline]

1 year of winning the cup with a pretty soft team (that still had Drake, McCarty, and Downey on it) and suddenly 100 years of hockey history goes out the window... you no longer need grit, size, or toughness to be successful in the playoffs. I think a lot of posters here became Wings' fans after watching a Pavel Datsyuk MTV cribs episode or something...

Nevermind the fact that we are blessed to have 2 of the best all around forwards in the world, the best D in the world, and probably the most clutch goalie in the world, that's not why we're a good team, it's because we plug holes with guys like Lebda, Samuelsson, Williams?, Meech, Kopecky, post lockout Maltby... right...

If every team iced a team like the Red Wings do in the regular season, the NHL would go out of business in a few years because fans all over North America would slowly lose interest

So where was all the toughness in 2002? Or 97? Or 98? It looked to me this team was too busy scoring and playing decent defense. I remember this team having an emphasis on fighters, something I'm sure fighting nuts look back to, the Kocur/Probert days. How many cups were won then? Right. Zero. Maybe if you pray hard enough you'll travel back in time to the bully days.

Drake was just as responsible as every other Wing on the roster that played both parts of the entire 2007-08 season for them winning the cup, but don't delude yourself, it had nothing to do with fighting, just like having Shanahan or Kocur on the Wings roster in 2002 didn't mean s*** either for this team being tough in that fashion.

In 97/98 it was all about the Russian five, shut down defense, and Vernon/Ozzie. In 2002 it was all about scorers, Yzerman, Shanny, Hull, Robitaille, Fedorov, Lidstrom (with his defense too), and Hasek's goaltending. In 2008 it was simply a hungry team with elite scoring, and a perfect mesh of defense and goaltending that allowed a cup to come in favor of the Wings. What responsibility did fighting or gooning have? Absolutely f*** all. Nothing. Zero.

I think people put too much attention into the world FIGHTING.. what most fans really want is just a team that sticks up for themselves and doesn't back down, if a fight is necessary then by all means... the teams we had in '97 and '98 would outplay teams, outhit teams, and intimidate them while doing so... we still outplay teams but we have to turn the other cheek and hide behind the linesmen because we have nobody who can do anything themselves... we would never be considered "Hockeytown" if we iced a team like this throughout the 90's until today, that's for sure

The whole reason people, and that is EVERYONE, gets upset about the "sticking up" thing is because teams get frustrated at the Wings because they win too much and it pisses opponents off. How many bloody years have we been watching the Blues or Blackhawks, since these divisions were formed, throw huge hissy fits, putting goons out to try and shake the Red Wings, engaging in post-whistle bulls***, and with not engaging in goonery, be honest with yourself. It didn't shake this team at all. Asking the Wings to get pissed off like fans do when they get pushed around after the whistle is to cater to that high sense of emotions, and the Wings have been called a machine since 1995 for a reason. The notion that this team is that much softer than the one that won in 1997 is silly and without any merit.

The one and only thing fighting represents that's obvious and objective, is entertainment. Not having fighters/goons, or having any emphasis on fighting, since that 97 cup, have not stopped the Wings from throwing their bodies around when they wanted to, and being effective. They just aren't being led around on a leash by their emotions like fans are.

Edited August 3, 2009 by Shoreline

[Guest Shoreline]

I was up for having a discussion with ya, until that. Your calling me out as fan, just because I'd prefer a couple tougher guys plugging the 3rd/4th lines then the ones there in the past (Sammy, Hudler, Kopecky) suddenly, I'm only cheering in concession. I do love the team, unconditionally? I try my best, sometimes you dont have to be Mr Positive all the time. If they lose, it's ok to be pissed, but your still a fan. Your still cheering the next game, you dont give up. I do trust Kenny, but he isnt God like many make him out to be, he's won Cups, and he's also screwed up, he's human.

He's the best human, a.k.a. GM, in this league. I'm not really a person of faith, so I require results. He's delivered, 4 times, if I recall correctly, in the last 12 years. And yes, with the cap, it is unfortunately far more likely nowadays that this team is going to have to ice players who aren't as talented as before. Much different than the time when the Wings could just pay a slew of talented players, keeping/signing them, and there was no limit. It's past the end times of the spoiled-rotten era.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

How is the league changing if pretty much every team has an enforcer? Just because the WIngs don't have one doesn't mean the whole league is like that all of a sudden.

Holland has done many things right, but putting together a team full of turtlers is not one of them. Maybe some of you guys don't mind it when Franzen does the chicken dance or some s***bag like Perry jumps an injured Rafalski, but I sure as hell do.

Enforcers are still a big part of the game. Not in Hockeytown, but in just about every other place. Too many people living in denial here.

[skacore 2]

So where was all the toughness in 2002? Or 97? Or 98? It looked to me this team was too busy scoring and playing decent defense. I remember this team having an emphasis on fighters, something I'm sure fighting nuts look back to, the Kocur/Probert days. How many cups were won then? Right. Zero. Maybe if you pray hard enough you'll travel back in time to the bully days.

Drake was just as responsible as every other Wing on the roster that played both parts of the entire 2007-08 season for them winning the cup, but don't delude yourself, it had nothing to do with fighting, just like having Shanahan or Kocur on the Wings roster in 2002 didn't mean s*** either for this team being tough in that fashion.

In 97/98 it was all about the Russian five, shut down defense, and Vernon/Ozzie. In 2002 it was all about scorers, Yzerman, Shanny, Hull, Robitaille, Fedorov, Lidstrom (with his defense too), and Hasek's goaltending. In 2008 it was simply a hungry team with elite scoring, and a perfect mesh of defense and goaltending that allowed a cup to come in favor of the Wings. What responsibility did fighting or gooning have? Absolutely f*** all. Nothing. Zero.

The whole reason people, and that is EVERYONE, gets upset about the "sticking up" thing is because teams get frustrated at the Wings because they win too much and it pisses opponents off. How many bloody years have we been watching the Blues or Blackhawks, since these divisions were formed, throw huge hissy fits, putting goons out to try and shake the Red Wings, engaging in post-whistle bulls***, and with not engaging in goonery, be honest with yourself. It didn't shake this team at all. Asking the Wings to get pissed off like fans do when they get pushed around after the whistle is to cater to that high sense of emotions, and the Wings have been called a machine since 1995 for a reason. The notion that this team is that much softer than the one that won in 1997 is silly and without any merit.

The one and only thing fighting represents that's obvious and objective, is entertainment. Not having fighters/goons, or having any emphasis on fighting, since that 97 cup, have not stopped the Wings from throwing their bodies around when they wanted to, and being effective. They just aren't being led around on a leash by their emotions like fans are.

97: Shanahan, McCarty, Konstantinov, Lapointe, Pushor, etc.

98: Shanahan, McCarty, Lapointe, Kocur, Pushor, etc.

02: Shanahan, McCarty, 100 mill payroll of NHL superstars...

^^^^^^^ that is toughness lol... It's honestly a disgrace that someone can sit there and say fighting has had absolutely nothing to do with the Red Wings' dynasty... ask any hockey fan what there favourite memory was from the 90's and I'm sure 90% will tell you this:

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

1 year of winning the cup with a pretty soft team (that still had Drake, McCarty, and Downey on it) and suddenly 100 years of hockey history goes out the window... you no longer need grit, size, or toughness to be successful in the playoffs. I think a lot of posters here became Wings' fans after watching a Pavel Datsyuk MTV cribs episode or something...

Nevermind the fact that we are blessed to have 2 of the best all around forwards in the world, the best D in the world, and probably the most clutch goalie in the world, that's not why we're a good team, it's because we plug holes with guys like Lebda, Samuelsson, Williams?, Meech, Kopecky, post lockout Maltby... right...

If every team iced a team like the Red Wings do in the regular season, the NHL would go out of business in a few years because fans all over North America would slowly lose interest

I've been a fan of the Wings since the late 80's. Based on your theory, what do you make of that?

[skacore 2]

I've been a fan of the Wings since the late 80's. Based on your theory, what do you make of that?

Your username is from our long time enforcer...

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Disagree. Downey played more then half a seasons worth of games, his impact was felt. The Wings played much tougher that season, Franzen running guys over, and even getting a bit dirty with it sometimes (Barret Jackman from behind into the boards?) Datsyuk started getting fiesty, and it's carried over. Even Flip and Hudler played bigger then they had before, obviously Downeys impact wasnt that of a Laraque or Boogaard, but it was still felt. Drake stuck up for his mates, Corey Perry in the 1st game was something I'll never forget, grabbing Ott after he went after Lidstrom, and his stock really rose in the playoffs, he just ran everything in sight over, I watched the Nashville series again during last week on the NHL network, and he was just great, never made any bad plays, hit everything, got chippy. As far as Mac, he played solid defense, brought some leadership, and even made a few hits and did fight McCormick to stick a fork in the Avs. I know to some those impacts are huge, and of course they arent that of Zetterberg or Datsyuks contributions, but in 06, Datsyuk, Zetterberg and those types, didnt really get all that physical, after a year of having tougher mates, they're hitting everything during the postseason. They were the ones targetting Crosby and Malkin in the finals, and yes, I know that you cant bring that passion from the playoffs into the regular season, but thats what an enforcer is for, generate some energy and the juices flowing.

His impact was felt, but it wasn't as significant as some make it out to be. That's my point.

In regards to your anaysis of Mac, I disagree that he played solid defense. I thought he looked lost out there most of time.

Lastly, don't think I don't see the contributions of 3rd and 4th liners. I'm extremely realistic when it comes to what those types of players should and shouldn't be providing (I.E. See my many debates regarding Lilja and Sammy). That's why I stated I'd take a Drake-type of player any day. That's why I'm as fired up as I am to have Helm as a full-timer. He'll be great for this current Wings team.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I've been a fan of the Wings since the late 80's. Based on your theory, what do you make of that?

The theory is that fans who push for enforcers aren't "real fans", because they don't appreciate the current team's makeup. It's a silly theory, but some posters here constantly badger that point.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Your username is from our long time enforcer...

So what? Does that mean I can't be realistic about what Mac *now* brings to the team?

[skacore 2]

His impact was felt, but it wasn't as significant as some make it out to be. That's my point.

I think most people who make Downey's influence on the team out to be some sort of miracle are just countering the people who like to pretend he wasn't there at all. The fact is he did go through training camp, preseason, and the majority of the regular season enforcing for this hockey club, and they went on to win the Stanley Cup in a much tougher fashion than previous years since the lockout, it's not as simple as 1+1=2 but something, somewhere worked out for the better.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

The theory is that fans who push for enforcers aren't "real fans", because they don't appreciate the current team's makeup. It's a silly theory, but some posters here constantly badger that point.

To me, that's just as silly as those who think enforcers are the end all solution. (Not saying that you are with that last statement)

Neither hold any water with me.

I think most people who make Downey's influence on the team out to be some sort of miracle are just countering the people who like to pretend he wasn't there at all. The fact is he did go through training camp, preseason, and the majority of the regular season enforcing for this hockey club, and they went on to win the Stanley Cup in a much tougher fashion than previous years since the lockout, it's not as simple as 1+1=2 but something, somewhere worked out for the better.

Now that's something most rational people shouldn't argue. That being said, whether it was because of Downey or Bab's system finally sinking in to level it needed to be is another debate.

[Guest micah]

For me, it's very simple. I like that the Wings win a lot. I would like it if they had a guy or two who could fight. I don't believe that having a guy or two who can fight will prevent the Wings from winning a lot. I suspect that adding a tough guy durring the reg season would:

a) cost the Wings a whopping total of zero games won over the course of the season, and

b) add a dimension to the game that Detroit fans have been missing out on (and clamouring for) for quite some time, while

c) not costing very much money.

[skacore 2]

So what? Does that mean I can't be realistic about what Mac *now* brings to the team?

What are you even talking about? You said "I've been a fan of the Wings since the late 80's. Based on your theory, what do you make of that? " Originally I said that if the Wings played like this throughout the 90's we wouldn't be considered "Hockeytown" and would have much less loyal fans, then you said that. So I'm saying that one of the toughest players to ever come through Detroit seems to have rubbed off on you a bit since you decided to make your username after him. I don't understand what else you're asking.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

What are you even talking about? You said "I've been a fan of the Wings since the late 80's. Based on your theory, what do you make of that? " Originally I said that if the Wings played like this throughout the 90's we wouldn't be considered "Hockeytown" and would have much less loyal fans, then you said that. So I'm saying that one of the toughest players to ever come through Detroit seems to have rubbed off on you a bit since you decided to make your username after him. I don't understand what else you're asking.

Yes, I like Mac and what he's done for the team. That doesn't change the fact that its not needed *now* like it was in the 90's. You're comparing Apples to Oranges when you compare these past two decades.

My question to you was in regards to you stating that fans of the Wings who seemingly don't care for enforcers haven't been around long enough. I find that to be a bullsh*t comment. There's pleny of fans that have been around long enough to not only appreciate what some of these tough guys have done, but also understand the direction the game has taken. I like to think I'm one of them.

[Guest micah]

My question to you was in regards to you stating that fans of the Wings who seemingly don't care for enforcers haven't been around long enough. I find that to be a bullsh*t comment. There's pleny of fans that have been around long enough to not only appreciate what some of these tough guys have done, but also understand the direction the game has taken.

How has the game changed, in regard to the need for enforcers, since Mac's prime years?

[skacore 2]

Yes, I like Mac and what he's done for the team. That doesn't change the fact that its not needed *now* like it was in the 90's. You're comparing Apples to Oranges when you compare these past two decades.

My question to you was in regards to you stating that fans of the Wings who seemingly don't care for enforcers haven't been around long enough. I find that to be a bullsh*t comment. There's pleny of fans that have been around long enough to not only appreciate what some of these tough guys have done, but also understand the direction the game has taken. I like to think I'm one of them.

Someone said that fighting had no effect on the Wings in the 90's, the frigging Detroit Red Wings of all teams... we are well known for the brawl against the Avs and to go on and dominate from their on out, yet the fights had NO EFFECT... And what direction has the game taken exactly?? Fight numbers are up and the Stanley Cup Champs just added 2 legit heavyweight enforcers to their squad this offseason (Mike Rupp and Wade Brookbank)

I really don't see this whole new decade, no fighting NHL like people have mentioned... it's just the Red Wings while other teams seem to be stockpiling up on toughness

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

How has the game changed, in regard to the need for enforcers, since Mac's prime years?

Are you serious? The rules are completely different, putting a much greater emphasis on speed and skill. Enforcers that aren't talented enough in either of those categories either (a) aren't in the league very long or (b) don't play when it matters the most.

[Mors 201]

No one complained about having "goons" on the team in the past, or even semi-skilled players who could fight...it's only become hip in the past 5 years or so to deny the entertainment value of having some grit on the team.

Expect minimal support for a goon signing on these boards, you'll be labeled as a bandwagon fan if you question the roster selected by the management in any way.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Someone said that fighting had no effect on the Wings in the 90's, the frigging Detroit Red Wings of all teams... we are well known for the brawl against the Avs and to go on and dominate from their on out, yet the fights had NO EFFECT... And what direction has the game taken exactly?? Fight numbers are up and the Stanley Cup Champs just added 2 legit heavyweight enforcers to their squad this offseason (Mike Rupp and Wade Brookbank)

I really don't see this whole new decade, no fighting NHL like people have mentioned... it's just the Red Wings while other teams seem to be stockpiling up on toughness

You'll get no argument from me stating that fighting wasn't important for the Wings in the 90's (I most certainly wasn't the one that said that). A fair amount of players regard the March '97 game as the one that brought the team together.

Toughness and Enforcers aren't always the same thing. Guys like Helm and Drake bring toughness while they also had the ability to chip-in in other areas of the game.

[Holmstrom96 347]

So what? Does that mean I can't be realistic about what Mac *now* brings to the team?

This is what Mac brings to the team now:

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

The game has changed a little bit, but not as much as some people here believe it has. Some posters here believe the NHL is the KHL and probably think fighting is illegal in hockey. I'm guessing they only watch Wings games and no others.

That way when someone drops the gloves with a Wings player once in a blue moon, everyone here is quick to label that guy a goon and a dirty player who's just trying to hurt one of our guys.

Enforcers have been withered down in the "new NHL", but not eliminated, since they're on every team (except one).

[skacore 2]

This is what Mac brings to the team now:

This is what Holmstrom brings: