Goon

[Zion 93]

Agreed. This post was a 4-word lump of coal that just started a raging inferno.

Too easy, OP.

[thedatsyukian 7]

Yeah, but that takes more cash than an enforcer. Guys like that are hard to find, especially since the free agency period is basically over when it comes to big names.

Oh I know. I didn't necessarily mean for the up coming season since the hudler fiasco basically handcuffed us this offseason. I don't think an enforcer would hurt us but he would have a hard time protecting our top guys while on the fourth line.

[j.hoop 64]

its very unfortunate that you think fighter=goon OP.

i would love a fighter, as would most of us, but definitely not one that doesnt have temper/discipline under control. a constant march to the box would be untolerable on this team (just the reality of it) and would earn a one way ticket to waivers or GR.

[Guest Shoreline]

97: Shanahan, McCarty, Konstantinov, Lapointe, Pushor, etc.

98: Shanahan, McCarty, Lapointe, Kocur, Pushor, etc.

02: Shanahan, McCarty, 100 mill payroll of NHL superstars...

^^^^^^^ that is toughness lol... It's honestly a disgrace that someone can sit there and say fighting has had absolutely nothing to do with the Red Wings' dynasty... ask any hockey fan what there favourite memory was from the 90's and I'm sure 90% will tell you this:

Fighting has nothing to do with the Wings dynasty, and note I mentioned through these last 4 cups, which you selectively read to mean in some 80 years. This team HAVING a person who can fight on the team is not equivalent to having a fighting team or favoring that form of "toughness" when this team is just about dead last in fighting every ******* season (we can go over where the Wings ranked in fights in all 4 of those cup year if you like), as proof-in-the-pudding that this team does not cater to fighting. Shanahan and Mac were primarily scorers, and note how when Mac lost his scoring touch, he also lost his role with the team and others were used instead. I love how these fighting nuts love to make s*** up, like because this team HAD a person who could fight, and perhaps dropped the gloves, what, once in a blue ******* moon, that it means the Wings are some tough team. People tried to use a similar argument about video games, or KMFDM/Marilyn Manson CDs, being in the house as a culprit of school shootings. It's based entirely on piss poor logic and faulty to the utmost degree.

Datsyuk also fought Niedermayer, Zetterberg fought Malkin. Oh look I guess they're fighters now and the Wings are a fighting team! Not. In religions, people discount the things that clearly nullify their beliefs and only look to irrational and illogical reasons to prop up said belief. This pointing out players you did really is no different and majorly just backfired right in your face.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Shoreline

[RedFX 48]

Agreed. This post was a 4-word lump of coal that just started a raging inferno.

Too easy, OP.

To quote Dane Cook, "It's amazing how sometimes a little ball of lint can turn into a clusterf***"

[uk_redwing 495]

Now take the slapchop, lets do the slapchop right there, lets do the slapchop right there...

[skacore 2]

Fighting has nothing to do with the Wings dynasty, and note I mentioned through these last 4 cups, which you selectively read to mean in some 80 years. This team HAVING a person who can fight on the team is not equivalent to having a fighting team or favoring that form of "toughness" when this team is just about dead last in fighting every ******* season (we can go over where the Wings ranked in fights in all 4 of those cup year if you like), as proof-in-the-pudding that this team does not cater to fighting. Shanahan and Mac were primarily scorers, and note how when Mac lost his scoring touch, he also lost his role with the team and others were used instead. I love how these fighting nuts love to make s*** up, like because this team HAD a person who could fight, and perhaps dropped the gloves, what, once in a blue ******* moon, that it means the Wings are some tough team. People tried to use a similar argument about video games, or KMFDM/Marilyn Manson CDs, being in the house as a culprit of school shootings. It's based entirely on piss poor logic and faulty to the utmost degree.

Datsyuk also fought Niedermayer, Zetterberg fought Malkin. Oh look I guess they're fighters now and the Wings are a fighting team! Not. In religions, people discount the things that clearly nullify their beliefs and only look to irrational and illogical reasons to prop up said belief. This pointing out players you did really is no different and majorly just backfired right in your face.

yeah McCarty was primarily a scorer and dropped em once in a blue moon lol

[Guest Shoreline]

yeah McCarty was primarily a scorer and dropped em once in a blue moon lol

Let's see, just as an example. In the 1996-97 season he dropped them 11 times. The league leader had 34. Mac was ranked #43 in the league in fighting, the most prevalent Wing fighter, which is once every 7-8 games. Comparable to Downey when the Wings won the 2008 cup. If the highest ranked Wings scorer was #43 in the league, you sure as f*** wouldn't call them offensive-minded, but somehow this is a special case. However, Mac also was staring at 50 points, which is why he was actually utilized in the playoffs and helped this team win a cup, whereas Downey wasn't, because he doesn't help this team where it matters most -- offensively. And being that every damn year since that cup year the Wings have been at the bottom part of the list of fights year in and out, most people would kindly give up on the "tough" notion regarding fights and the Wings as they don't relate. I doubt it'll sway you any. At least just be honest for once and point out that you want s*** the way it was before the cups were won just because you find fighting more exciting than winning, like a true spoiled-rotten fan.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Shoreline

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

I'd just like for this team to have everybody - a goon, a fighter, a goaltender, a center, a winger, a defenseman. So everybody can be happy and we can all get along and have more opportunities for group hugs.

[skacore 2]

Let's see, just as an example. In the 1996-97 season he dropped them 11 times. The league leader had 34. Mac was ranked #43 in the league in fighting, the most prevalent Wing fighter, which is once every 7-8 games. Comparable to Downey when the Wings won the 2008 cup. If the highest ranked Wings scorer was #43 in the league, you sure as f*** wouldn't call them offensive-minded, but somehow this is a special case. However, Mac also was staring at 50 points, which is why he was actually utilized in the playoffs and helped this team win a cup, whereas Downey wasn't, because he doesn't help this team where it matters most -- offensively. And being that every damn year since that cup year the Wings have been at the bottom part of the list of fights year in and out, most people would kindly give up on the "tough" notion regarding fights and the Wings as they don't relate. I doubt it'll sway you any. At least just be honest for once and point out that you want s*** the way it was before the cups were won just because you find fighting more exciting than winning, like a true spoiled-rotten fan.

what am I supposed to admit exactly? would I rather the Wings be more like they were in the 90's? f*** yeah... and I know the Wings have been bottom of the fighting chart for a while, you don't necessarily need #'s to satisfy fans, just show a backbone and stand up for yourselves... McCarty has more fights than goals in his career, where exactly is this argument headed?? lol

[skacore 2]

I'd just like for this team to have everybody - a goon, a fighter, a goaltender, a center, a winger, a defenseman. So everybody can be happy and we can all get along and have more opportunities for group hugs.

amen, fill all the needs of a solid hockey club and everyone IS happy, I think that's been the request from the "fight fans", "grit slappys", "goon lovers", etc. for the past little while, just a couple ingredients missing until this great team can be considered that complete package

[Guest Shoreline]

what am I supposed to admit exactly? would I rather the Wings be more like they were in the 90's? f*** yeah... and I know the Wings have been bottom of the fighting chart for a while, you don't necessarily need #'s to satisfy fans, just show a backbone and stand up for yourselves... McCarty has more fights than goals in his career, where exactly is this argument headed?? lol

The Wings, while not fighting any significant amount, still hit people, still played the body, and Lids still effectively used his stick as always. It's not as if they weren't physical. They just didn't fight much at all nor focus much on scrums. When they do, they get injured, and why waste roster space on a guy like Downey who isn't even going to log any minutes in the postseason? It would only appease to selective fans who find that entertaining, and it simply isn't enough. If winning isn't entertaining enough, especially for the Wings who also tend to score a lot, a far cry from a REAL boring team like the Devils of a more recent past, who, while they'd fight a good amount, would not score for s*** and play a trap defense, boring the hell out of everyone who watched, I dunno what to say than there are specific things to find elsewhere perhaps. The Wings have been called a machine since 95 because they focus on scoring, defense, and goaltending, rather than fighting and scrums. Fighting and scrumming doesn't win games, so it's importance is zero. It's only a bonus, and a bonus isn't, and shouldn't be put on a pedestal like you and some others here do to it. I've always liked fights, and I'll often times jump up in excitement when seeing one (usually crossing my fingers when the Wings fight that no one gets hurt) just am realistic about how important it is when it comes to this team's bottom line. Having a lot of spoiled rotten fans, they want to pick and choose the way they want to win, being that they expect success in this (a winning) manner, whereas 99% of other teams fans (who often come here and post about how spoiled we are) are just wanting their team to just win by ANY means.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Shoreline

[Konnan511 1,736]

Jesus cannot save this forum from goon nuts.

Noooooooooooooo. Think of the children, though!

[Konnan511 1,736]

There are too many One paragraph blocks in this thread.

[uk_redwing 495]

There are too many One paragraph blocks in this thread.

Do you know what cuts up big chunky blocks of paragraph?

Edited August 4, 2009 by uk_redwing

[skacore 2]

The Wings, while not fighting any significant amount, still hit people, still played the body, and Lids still effectively used his stick as always. It's not as if they weren't physical. They just didn't fight much at all nor focus much on scrums. When they do, they get injured, and why waste roster space on a guy like Downey who isn't even going to log any minutes in the postseason? It would only appease to selective fans who find that entertaining, and it simply isn't enough. If winning isn't entertaining enough, especially for the Wings who also tend to score a lot, a far cry from a REAL boring team like the Devils of a more recent past, who, while they'd fight a good amount, would not score for s*** and play a trap defense, boring the hell out of everyone who watched, I dunno what to say than there are specific things to find elsewhere perhaps. The Wings have been called a machine since 95 because they focus on scoring, defense, and goaltending, rather than fighting and scrums. Fighting and scrumming doesn't win games, so it's importance is zero. It's only a bonus, and a bonus isn't, and shouldn't be put on a pedestal like you and some others here do to it. I've always liked fights, and I'll often times jump up in excitement when seeing one (usually crossing my fingers when the Wings fight that no one gets hurt) just am realistic about how important it is when it comes to this team's bottom line. Having a lot of spoiled rotten fans, they want to pick and choose the way they want to win, being that they expect success in this (a winning) manner, whereas 99% of other teams fans (who often come here and post about how spoiled we are) are just wanting their team to just win by ANY means.

I don't think it's fair to call them (or "me", or "us", whatever) "spoiled fans" because I definitely do not see it that way. Maybe it is just me but I'd rather see a blue collar team battle their way into the playoffs and exceed expectations when they get there. The wings could go 82-0 with an entire roster similar to Team Sweden but that wouldn't do it for me, in the end the NHL is an entertainment business and without fans and merchandise the league is not going anywhere. Of course teams are always going to stride to be the best they can but hockey is a physical game and fighting is a tradition in the game, Holland constantly states in interviews that he'd love to have a player that can play and fight but they aren't easy to find.... and he's been saying that for half a decade now. Attendance is awful, the Joe is pathetic, the team is GREAT, but there is a serious lack of old time hockey that so many fans have grown accustom to.

But if you are satisfied with what the Wings put on the ice every night more power to you... that's great because you'll be entertained 82 nights a year and then some, personally I'm not... I've been a die hard Wings fan since the early 90's and my room is decked in Wings merc. (from when I was younger).... I play the Wings in every EA sports game... I have no reason to bash the team or players on the team aside from the fact that I hate the direction they are going and the product they put on the ice... and I know some people like it, but I also know there are some who don't... and I think both sides will continue to preach until they feel they are satisfied.... if I fell in love with my potential wife and we got married then all of a sudden she stopped giving me BJs, I'd be pretty pissed off too

I have no reason to hate the Red Wings... but going into the 09-10 season right now, with these rosters intact, I am soooo much more inclined to watch my home town Maple Leafs instead of Red Wings on NHL center ice on any given night... I know no one cares but that is just how things have worked it's way out... hockey has always been known as a man's sport from where I come from... get the adrenaline pumping and watch the best players in the world bash the s*** outta each other then score some goals to boot... you just don't get that with the Wings anymore

Edited August 4, 2009 by skacore

[Konnan511 1,736]

Do you know what cuts up big chunky blocks of paragraph?

[Video of the shamwow guy, the guy who beat up a cannibal hooker]

It seems to have worked. Maybe they should be diced more so there is less chunkage to the paragraphs!

[Konnan511 1,736]

[really long opinion]

[really long opinion]... if I fell in love with my potential wife and we got married then all of a sudden she stopped giving me BJs, I'd be pretty pissed off too

I'd file for a divorce...*****...

[Long opinion and some other stuff]... and watch the best players in the world bash the s*** outta each other then score some guys to boot... you just don't get that with the Wings anymore

Maybe that's why the Leafs suck, they try to score guys instead of playing hockey?

[newfy 695]

So where was all the toughness in 2002? Or 97? Or 98? It looked to me this team was too busy scoring and playing decent defense. I remember this team having an emphasis on fighters, something I'm sure fighting nuts look back to, the Kocur/Probert days. How many cups were won then? Right. Zero. Maybe if you pray hard enough you'll travel back in time to the bully days.

Drake was just as responsible as every other Wing on the roster that played both parts of the entire 2007-08 season for them winning the cup, but don't delude yourself, it had nothing to do with fighting, just like having Shanahan or Kocur on the Wings roster in 2002 didn't mean s*** either for this team being tough in that fashion.

In 97/98 it was all about the Russian five, shut down defense, and Vernon/Ozzie. In 2002 it was all about scorers, Yzerman, Shanny, Hull, Robitaille, Fedorov, Lidstrom (with his defense too), and Hasek's goaltending. In 2008 it was simply a hungry team with elite scoring, and a perfect mesh of defense and goaltending that allowed a cup to come in favor of the Wings. What responsibility did fighting or gooning have? Absolutely f*** all. Nothing. Zero.

The whole reason people, and that is EVERYONE, gets upset about the "sticking up" thing is because teams get frustrated at the Wings because they win too much and it pisses opponents off. How many bloody years have we been watching the Blues or Blackhawks, since these divisions were formed, throw huge hissy fits, putting goons out to try and shake the Red Wings, engaging in post-whistle bulls***, and with not engaging in goonery, be honest with yourself. It didn't shake this team at all. Asking the Wings to get pissed off like fans do when they get pushed around after the whistle is to cater to that high sense of emotions, and the Wings have been called a machine since 1995 for a reason. The notion that this team is that much softer than the one that won in 1997 is silly and without any merit.

The one and only thing fighting represents that's obvious and objective, is entertainment. Not having fighters/goons, or having any emphasis on fighting, since that 97 cup, have not stopped the Wings from throwing their bodies around when they wanted to, and being effective. They just aren't being led around on a leash by their emotions like fans are.

Someone who makes a comment is either a 14 year old kid who wasn't old enough to remember 97 and 98, a bandwagon fan that just recently jumped on board or someone that has had their vision blurred by all this euro no toughness hockey the wings have been playing this year. So tell me, which one are you? 97 and 98 we iced some of the toughest teams in the league. Forget all this classy bulls*** you guys talk about now. Anyone remember Macarty jumping turtle or Lapointe sucker punching King? We had Shanny, Lapointe, Kocur, Macarty, Vladdy, Maltby threw his weight around, Pushor and Ward. Now I'm sure a huge fan like yourself couldn't have forgotten these players already but if you did that should serve as a reminder that this team used to be tough and everyone loved it. Not too mention that tough team that could play repeated something this team with a PP enforcer and no heart couldn't do.

[Buppy 1,720]

The Wings, while not fighting any significant amount, still hit people, still played the body, and Lids still effectively used his stick as always. It's not as if they weren't physical. They just didn't fight much at all nor focus much on scrums. When they do, they get injured, and why waste roster space on a guy like Downey who isn't even going to log any minutes in the postseason? It would only appease to selective fans who find that entertaining, and it simply isn't enough. If winning isn't entertaining enough, especially for the Wings who also tend to score a lot, a far cry from a REAL boring team like the Devils of a more recent past, who, while they'd fight a good amount, would not score for s*** and play a trap defense, boring the hell out of everyone who watched, I dunno what to say than there are specific things to find elsewhere perhaps. The Wings have been called a machine since 95 because they focus on scoring, defense, and goaltending, rather than fighting and scrums. Fighting and scrumming doesn't win games, so it's importance is zero. It's only a bonus, and a bonus isn't, and shouldn't be put on a pedestal like you and some others here do to it. I've always liked fights, and I'll often times jump up in excitement when seeing one (usually crossing my fingers when the Wings fight that no one gets hurt) just am realistic about how important it is when it comes to this team's bottom line. Having a lot of spoiled rotten fans, they want to pick and choose the way they want to win, being that they expect success in this (a winning) manner, whereas 99% of other teams fans (who often come here and post about how spoiled we are) are just wanting their team to just win by ANY means.

While the Wings by no means 'need' an enforcer/goon, and I wouldn't want them to change their core philosophy of prioritizing skill, the fact is the Wings have two empty forward slots they have to fill (3 would be better), and not a lot of cap space to work with. We can probably make room for one decent scorer, but after that we're picking through the dregs. If we have to have one or more players who are basically just filling up roster spots for cheap, they might as well be players that can throw down now and then.

[Konnan511 1,736]

While the Wings by no means 'need' an enforcer/goon, and I wouldn't want them to change their core philosophy of prioritizing skill, the fact is the Wings have two empty forward slots they have to fill (3 would be better), and not a lot of cap space to work with. We can probably make room for one decent scorer, but after that we're picking through the dregs. If we have to have one or more players who are basically just filling up roster spots for cheap, they might as well be players that can throw down now and then.

Or play solid defense to give the top line guys some rest?

Just had to throw in a rebuttal. I could care less who plays on the fourth line as long as they aren't a liability.

[RedFX 48]

I'm asking this for all serious debate purposes.

Can a bigger, more physical-style team really reach the top in the new NHL?

In the 4 years since the lockout, Anaheim was really the only champion that played that style, and those first two years were a little shallow depth wise.

[newfy 695]

but the sharks had shelley. so even though they had a fighter/tough guy/goon it didn't stop this from happening. and personally i think thats one of the big misconceptions about having a fighter. i think idiot players that take chap shots are going to do it regardless. it doesn't matter if the other team has a fighter. because most of the people that take cheap shots are going to turtle away from fights anyways. so why would someone need to be scared of downey/godard/shelley? its not like kronwall or stuart are afraid to go for big hits because the wings don't have an enforcer to protect them.

I don't know if maybe it was just me but it seemed like Kronwall didn't throw as many huge hits this year as he did last year. I think a player like Drake in the lineup made Kronwall step up more and play the body because he knew he wasn't gonig to be the opnly out there playnig like that.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

I'm asking this for all serious debate purposes.

Can a bigger, more physical-style team really reach the top in the new NHL?

In the 4 years since the lockout, Anaheim was really the only champion that played that style, and those first two years were a little shallow depth wise.

Can a super skill team reach the top in the New NHL?

Carolina? Not really, gritty hungry guys who caught a hot goalie and rode him.

Anaheim, bunch of goons with Getzlaf, Selanne, Niedermayer and Giguere leading them.

Detroit, finally one, but still having gritty guys playing.

Pittsburgh, Crosby and Malkin during the East part, and guys like Staal and Talbot coming up huge in the finals.

It goes both ways, a team can be tough, and win. A team can be based around skill and win, and a team can have a nice mix of both, and win.

[skacore 2]

I'm asking this for all serious debate purposes.

Can a bigger, more physical-style team really reach the top in the new NHL?

In the 4 years since the lockout, Anaheim was really the only champion that played that style, and those first two years were a little shallow depth wise.

yes, definitely... I think it will become a bit of a trend in the next few years to be completely honest... Anaheim was a dominant team when they won and they were still very solid this year and pushed us to the very limit and they're even in a bit of a rebuild you could say, yeah they lost Pronger but they've really done well to solidify their team and their top line is just ridiculous and going to get so much better, I'd expect them to contend for years to come

Flyers are another team that I think are going to take the next step this year. Pronger really helps the D corps and I could see them battling through a few playoffs rounds and end up in (at the very least) the conference finals

I've posted this a couple times already today but the Penguins have made some minor moves this offseason to get a lot bigger and tougher and they're the defending champs, they obviously see some sort of value there. They acquired Mike Rupp who is 6'5 230ish and was NJ's heavyweight last year, he can play a regular shift on any team's 4th line. They also signed Carolina's part time enforcer Wade Brookbank who is also around 6'4 220-230ish, but I doubt he'll be a full timer for them, just get some games here and there when necessary. On top of that they have one of the best enforcers in the league in Eric Godard (6'4 230). So yeah I think a lot of teams (not all) are really trying to get some big boys who can play and intimidate and I'm really looking forward to some of the battles that are gonna take place this year.