The Bertuzzi & Moore incident

[Jedi 1,865]

Let's use this thread to debate the whole Bertuzzi and Moore incident.

We'll keep the other thread to discuss Bertuzzi's possible signing in Detroit.

[rage 24]

Sweet! Thanks Jedi!

You won't see me in here much!! haha. But I am sure others will be!

[Doc Holiday 0]

I just want to respond to skacore.

A hit that clips the head is not as dangerous as going headfirst into the ice with over 200 pounds on top of you. Moore could have died. Naslund could not have.

The point is, I don't see how Moore did anything to deserve what he got. He deserved an ass-kicking, sure. But not an ended career.

[skacore 2]

I just want to respond to skacore.

A hit that clips the head is not as dangerous as going headfirst into the ice with over 200 pounds on top of you. Moore could have died. Naslund could not have.

The point is, I don't see how Moore did anything to deserve what he got. He deserved an ass-kicking, sure. But not an ended career.

ok... a guy died earlier this year by hitting his head on the ice, yeah he didn't have a helmet on but the impact is still enough to scramble a brain... if Moore turned around after Bertuzzi held onto him for 5 seconds, he would have gotten an ass kicking, but he decided, in a blow out game, to ignore the 240 pound bruiser hanging off his back and pretend like he wasn't about to get socked in the back of the head, like every hockey player has had to them at least once in their career.. it's unfortunate but Moore had it coming and he knew it, he chose not to defend himself, silly mistake and a very severe one for Steve Moore

[Electrophile 3,554]

Copypasta'd from the other thread:

Well, as I've said numerous times, what do we Wings fans call McCarty's merciless beat-down on Lemieux?

Not even remotely close to the same thing.

McCarty beat the hell out of him yes, but Lemieux fraking covered his head and face for the most part. Lemieux knew McCarty was gunning for him, he even took measures to protect himself from the beatdown that was coming. Todd Bertuzzi BROKE STEVE MOORE'S NECK and Moore had no opportunity to protect himself from it. You want to equate someone getting a few punches to the puss with having your NECK BROKEN? If I had the choice between Darren McCarty punching me in the face or Todd Bertuzzi breaking my neck.....I'll take my chances in Thunderdome with Darren, tyvm. Moore's hit on Naslund was dirty. That doesn't mean he deserved a BROKEN NECK because of it. I've seen tape of what Bertuzzi did. He punched him in the back of the head and then fell on him and BROKE HIS NECK.

Fighting is one thing. Hits are one things. Dirty hits are even another thing. However, BREAKING SOMEONE'S NECK is not acceptable on the ice, in the streets, on a basketball court, on a baseball field, on a football field, in a bowling alley, at a restaurant, in school, in any arena of life you may encounter. I don't care if the broken neck part was not intended. He intended to cause great physical harm to Moore because he started this fracas off by punching him in the back of the head. The broken neck was the cherry on Bertuzzi's sundae. You can stand up for your teammate without being a punk. If someone leveled a cheap shot on Nick, would you want someone on our team to do this to someone? How would you feel about that player afterward?

To respond to a point you made further up the thread, if Darren McCarty broke Claude Lemieux's neck, I would absolutely throw him under the bus for it. That s*** is not acceptable. You want to get revenge on Turtle Boy for what he did to your best friend, I'm pretty sure you can do it without BREAKING HIS NECK. What the hell is this s***, the MMA?

[puckbags 863]

People still talk about this? Live in the now for crying out loud. He made a horrible mistake served his time and moved on..maybe you all should try that too !!

[skacore 2]

Copypasta'd from the other thread:

Not even remotely close to the same thing.

McCarty beat the hell out of him yes, but Lemieux fraking covered his head and face for the most part. Lemieux knew McCarty was gunning for him, he even took measures to protect himself from the beatdown that was coming. Todd Bertuzzi BROKE STEVE MOORE'S NECK and Moore had no opportunity to protect himself from it. You want to equate someone getting a few punches to the puss with having your NECK BROKEN? If I had the choice between Darren McCarty punching me in the face or Todd Bertuzzi breaking my neck.....I'll take my chances in Thunderdome with Darren, tyvm. Moore's hit on Naslund was dirty. That doesn't mean he deserved a BROKEN NECK because of it. I've seen tape of what Bertuzzi did. He punched him in the back of the head and then fell on him and BROKE HIS NECK.

Fighting is one thing. Hits are one things. Dirty hits are even another thing. However, BREAKING SOMEONE'S NECK is not acceptable on the ice, in the streets, on a basketball court, on a baseball field, on a football field, in a bowling alley, at a restaurant, in school, in any arena of life you may encounter. I don't care if the broken neck part was not intended. He intended to cause great physical harm to Moore because he started this fracas off by punching him in the back of the head. The broken neck was the cherry on Bertuzzi's sundae. You can stand up for your teammate without being a punk. If someone leveled a cheap shot on Nick, would you want someone on our team to do this to someone? How would you feel about that player afterward?

To respond to a point you made further up the thread, if Darren McCarty broke Claude Lemieux's neck, I would absolutely throw him under the bus for it. That s*** is not acceptable. You want to get revenge on Turtle Boy for what he did to your best friend, I'm pretty sure you can do it without BREAKING HIS NECK. What the hell is this s***, the MMA?

McCarty's attack on Lemieux is the same s*** if not worse, he suckered Lemieux out of the blue. Bertuzzi was tugging at Moore's jersey letting him know it was coming. Moore knew it was coming and refused to defend himself, plain and simple. It's happened 1000 times before just like Moore's hit on Naslund has happened 1000 times before. Moore's neck just happened to break partially because Bertuzzi is a big guy and 3-4 other guys piling on doesn't help either, it was an unfortunate event.

A lot of people look at Moore's result and feel so bad for the guy, I look at the action instead and what actually happened... it's really not that uncommon.

Edited August 18, 2009 by skacore

[Doc Holiday 0]

A lot of people look at Moore's result and feel so bad for the guy, I look at the action instead and what actually happened... it's really not that uncommon.

Really now? When has anyone done what Bertuzzi did?

Now where does Moore know the punch is coming? (It is a two second delay btw, and even though Moore didn't react as quickly as I would it wouldn't be surprising if he was confused out of his mind why Bertuzzi was grabbing his jersey) How does Moore know that he is about to be clocked right into the side of the head? Just because his jersey is grabbed from behind? And for arguments sake lets just say that Moore should have known better. Okay, how does that give Bertuzzi the right to slam his face into the ice, or clock him in the side of the head from behind? Bertuzzi should know that if someone goes face first with over 200 pounds on top of him, he is more than likely going to get injured. Especially when there isn't any kind of protection against neck injuries in the NHL.

Honestly, Moore's hit was a borderline BODY CHECK. Bertuzzi's was a blatant punch to the face and body slam. The line between the two is so thick it would take you a day to cut through it.

And to compare that and the McCarty attack:

Notice where McCarty is. Right in Claude's line of vision. He sees it coming the whole way. And don't forget McCarty didn't slam Claude's face into the ice with himself on top.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Doc Holiday

[digitaljohn88 4]

Google "Bertuzzi Moore incident forums"

You can read five years of the same argument/discussion in one hundred different forums.

[Echolalia 2,961]

This is the type of issue that nobody is going to budge an inch on, regardless of what is said. Whats done is done, and nothing is going to change what happened or the fact that there is a very high chance that he will be wearing a Winged Wheel come October. You can either complain and say he shouldn't deserve to be in a hockey rink anywhere, or accept that he isn't suspended and is currently willing to give himself to the Wings organization to return the Cup to Detroit and its fans. Your call.

[DEVILSWATERBOY 10]

It is time to let this go the man Fd up and we all know it . But lets look at 2 things that were very simular in Lapukes hit on Drapes and Berts hit on Moore , what was the same is Crawford, take a look at Crawfords coaching history and this mo has followed him around as far as Bert if he comes here so be it we need size and grit after all isn't it about winning a cup and not popularity. Not happy about what he did but that is in the past and it time to move forward

[Holmstrom96 347]

I'm of the opinion that what Bertuzzi did was wrong. It most certainly wasn't his intention to fracture Moore's spine, but you must be responsible for your actions. With the way he blind-side punched more and then drove him to the ice he was taking a BIG risk, and it unfortunately proved to be a bad risk.

I agree with the others, the McCarty attack on Lemeuix was different, McCarty did NOT blind-side Claudia, he came from the front. Nor did he use his weight to drive Claudia'shead into the ground. McCarty just plain beat the s*** out of Claudia with his fist.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Holmstrom96

[Guest micah]

Notice where McCarty is. Right in Claude's line of vision. He sees it coming the whole way. And don't forget McCarty didn't slam Claude's face into the ice with himself on top.

What Bert did was worse than what Mac did, 100 times worse. I don't want Bert here.

That said, Claude is either the toughest SOB in the world or he didn't see Mac coming. Nobody leaves his gloved hands at his sides when he knows a 220 lb noted fighter is about to punch him in the face.

Well, Franzen kinda did against Vandermeer I guess.

[lfd250 1]

REALLY??????????????????????????? Hasn't seabiscut been beaten enough?

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I just want to respond to skacore.

A hit that clips the head is not as dangerous as going headfirst into the ice with over 200 pounds on top of you. Moore could have died. Naslund could not have.

The point is, I don't see how Moore did anything to deserve what he got. He deserved an ass-kicking, sure. But not an ended career.

IMO

1. A sucker punch is wrong. I've never agreed with sucker punching anybody and I find the act despicable. I've played most of my life so I understand the urge to want to smoke somebody, especially when they are ignoring you. But you can't blindside them with a haymaker.

2. I am still somewhat befuddled at the fact that Moore went lights out and crumpled the way he did. As far as the sucker punch hall of fame goes, I am still shocked by the amount of damage Bertuzzi's glove-on punch caused. Moore was skating away from Bert, Bert was throwing an awkward angle punch from the side, etc.....Look at Lemieux's shot on Kozlov many years ago. That was an absolute glove on haymaker on a standing still opponent and Kozzie ended up with a gash that needed stitches and from what I gather, was pretty much fine. Look at Lilja's injury in fighting Weber. Weber is not known as a big puncher and that really wasn't a big punch he landed on Lils. It was solid but not a KO punch IMO. It just goes to show that everybody's ability to handle a punch or to avoid serious concussion issues is different.

In the end, I don't nor can I ever condone sucker punching anybody. However, I don't believe, in my heart, that Bertuzzi was trying to end his career. My head tells me he was ticked and like a million hockey players before him, he wanted a piece of Moore. I'm sure in his mind that he'd get some licks in and then it would be dealt with. I don't think he nor anybody could foretell that there would be such extreme trauma caused to Moore.

Lots of sucker punches get thrown unfortunately in our sport. You never know what the outcome is going to be. Bertuzzi was a pretty good player before that. He'll never be remember for anything but the punch on Moore. He served his time. He had his reputation trashed and he's been back and playing a clean game.

A cheap shot that had freakish results. Nothing more and I have long since moved on from it.

[Mors 201]

Is further debate on this subject necessary? Get over it already...that was 5 years ago.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Copypasta'd from the other thread:

Not even remotely close to the same thing.

McCarty beat the hell out of him yes, but Lemieux fraking covered his head and face for the most part. Lemieux knew McCarty was gunning for him, he even took measures to protect himself from the beatdown that was coming. Todd Bertuzzi BROKE STEVE MOORE'S NECK and Moore had no opportunity to protect himself from it. You want to equate someone getting a few punches to the puss with having your NECK BROKEN? If I had the choice between Darren McCarty punching me in the face or Todd Bertuzzi breaking my neck.....I'll take my chances in Thunderdome with Darren, tyvm. Moore's hit on Naslund was dirty. That doesn't mean he deserved a BROKEN NECK because of it. I've seen tape of what Bertuzzi did. He punched him in the back of the head and then fell on him and BROKE HIS NECK.

Fighting is one thing. Hits are one things. Dirty hits are even another thing. However, BREAKING SOMEONE'S NECK is not acceptable on the ice, in the streets, on a basketball court, on a baseball field, on a football field, in a bowling alley, at a restaurant, in school, in any arena of life you may encounter. I don't care if the broken neck part was not intended. He intended to cause great physical harm to Moore because he started this fracas off by punching him in the back of the head. The broken neck was the cherry on Bertuzzi's sundae. You can stand up for your teammate without being a punk. If someone leveled a cheap shot on Nick, would you want someone on our team to do this to someone? How would you feel about that player afterward?

To respond to a point you made further up the thread, if Darren McCarty broke Claude Lemieux's neck, I would absolutely throw him under the bus for it. That s*** is not acceptable. You want to get revenge on Turtle Boy for what he did to your best friend, I'm pretty sure you can do it without BREAKING HIS NECK. What the hell is this s***, the MMA?

Out of all of this you still don't see the one simple fact. McCarty threw that first punch. It was a sucker punch. You can claim Lemieux knew it was coming but in my mind I saw a guy skating who sees McCarty coming (he's probably thinking...WTF) and then boom....he gets hit with a punch on the kisser.

The fact is that Lemieux got sucker punched and he fell, but his neck didn't break.

Moore got sucker punched and he fell and his neck broke.

If you can prove that Bertuzzi is a trained ninja and knows specifically how to break necks, then good on ya.

McCarty pounding Lemieux was one of the greatest things ever. But a sucker punch is still a sucker punch.

Stop trying to validate it just because he wore the Wings sweater.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Really now? When has anyone done what Bertuzzi did?

Now where does Moore know the punch is coming? (It is a two second delay btw, and even though Moore didn't react as quickly as I would it wouldn't be surprising if he was confused out of his mind why Bertuzzi was grabbing his jersey) How does Moore know that he is about to be clocked right into the side of the head? Just because his jersey is grabbed from behind? And for arguments sake lets just say that Moore should have known better. Okay, how does that give Bertuzzi the right to slam his face into the ice, or clock him in the side of the head from behind? Bertuzzi should know that if someone goes face first with over 200 pounds on top of him, he is more than likely going to get injured. Especially when there isn't any kind of protection against neck injuries in the NHL.

Honestly, Moore's hit was a borderline BODY CHECK. Bertuzzi's was a blatant punch to the face and body slam. The line between the two is so thick it would take you a day to cut through it.

And to compare that and the McCarty attack:

Notice where McCarty is. Right in Claude's line of vision. He sees it coming the whole way. And don't forget McCarty didn't slam Claude's face into the ice with himself on top.

Doc, you couldn't be more wrong. If Lemieux saw it coming the whole ******* way......why didn't he protect himself?

[Swayze 81]

This thread....it looks familiar.........

...oh yeah! We already had about 10 of these the last time we signed Bert.

(tl;dr - in the past, get over it)

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

In the end, I don't nor can I ever condone sucker punching anybody. However, I don't believe, in my heart, that Bertuzzi was trying to end his career.

I'm very certain he wasn't trying to do that. I guess it's kind of akin to driving drunk, he wasn't out to really hurt anyone, but it was incredibly stupid and reckless regardless.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I'm of the opinion that what Bertuzzi did was wrong. It most certainly wasn't his intention to fracture Moore's spine, but you must be responsible for your actions. With the way he blind-side punched more and then drove him to the ice he was taking a BIG risk, and it unfortunately proved to be a bad risk.

I agree with the others, the McCarty attack on Lemeuix was different, McCarty did NOT blind-side Claudia, he came from the front. Nor did he use his weight to drive Claudia'shead into the ground. McCarty just plain beat the s*** out of Claudia with his fist.

So the crux of the entire position for those who are so blinded by Wings colors they can't see objectively..........is that Mac came from the front?

So essentially, if i'm walking down the street and you are walking in the opposite direction and right as we get close enough to each other I lay you the f*** out, you're saying that isn't as bad simply because you saw me coming....or that I hit you from the front?

People need to gain some clarity here.

The fact that McCarty was facing Lemieux does not mean beyond a shadow of a doubt that Lemieux knew there was a haymaking right hand about to land on his face.

Both players got sucker punched. The angle of attack doesn't change that fact.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I'm very certain he wasn't trying to do that. I guess it's kind of akin to driving drunk, he wasn't out to really hurt anyone, but it was incredibly stupid and reckless regardless.

100% agreement with you.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Really now? When has anyone done what Bertuzzi did?

Doc, you need to get off of the result of the punch aspect of it. Who knew Moore's neck was going to break?

The fact is that s***loads of players have done what Bert has done.....i.e. thrown a sucker punch on an unsuspecting player.

Sucker punches happen all the time. Bertuzzi sucker punched Moore. These are facts.

The broken neck was a freak injury, resulting from that punch. To insinuate that Bertuzzi's situation is different because he "intended" or "knew" or "tried to specifically" break Moore's neck is ridiculous.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I seriously doubt Bertuzzi wanted to do the damage that he had unfortunately inflicted upon Moore; an ass kicking yes, but knocking him unconscious, landing ontop of him, and breaking a few vertebrae was not part of his plan.

Didn't you know....Bertuzzi is trained in human anatomy and is a highly skilled, ninja assassin. He knew exactly the right way to break Moore's neck and he accomplished it.

[uk_redwing 495]

Doc, you need to get off of the result of the punch aspect of it. Who knew Moore's neck was going to break?

The fact is that s***loads of players have done what Bert has done.....i.e. thrown a sucker punch on an unsuspecting player.

Sucker punches happen all the time. Bertuzzi sucker punched Moore. These are facts.

The broken neck was a freak injury, resulting from that punch. To insinuate that Bertuzzi's situation is different because he "intended" or "knew" or "tried to specifically" break Moore's neck is ridiculous.

That was pure win