Is Kindl following Ericsson’s footsteps?

[Drake_Marcus 890]

I guess with Lilja on LTIR to start the season, Kindl has a legit shot of starting the season with Detroit? I mean, it's not that hard to beat out Lebda and Meech.

Nope. Lebda and Meech are already on the payroll-- the Wings can't afford to pay them to sit and have Kindl play as the #6 d-man. Furthermore, Kindl isn't close to being NHL ready. He struggled defensively in the AHL so he'd be eaten alive in the NHL.

[Buppy 1,720]

With Nick turning 40 by the end of the season (and suffering from tendinitis) and Rafalski turning 36 shortly, we'll likely need to replace both within a few years. Add in Lilly's injury, and the weakness of Lebda and Meech, and we need Kindl to follow Ericsson.

With back to back strong post-seasons, I'd say a Stuart trade is highly unlikely, especially considering the above, unless we got a proven top-4 defenseman in return. Maybe if he has another sub-par regular season and a poor playoff this year.

[Aussie_Wing 354]

Kindl is, without any doubt whatsoever, my favourite prospect. I’ve been pumped about him ever since the day he was drafted. So much upside, the most of any of our prospects. He’s still very raw, is prone to frustrating turnovers and he’s very inconsistent but I think the end result will be something very special.

That quote in bold is terrific to read, he’s obviously got his head screwed on right. To his credit, he’s been maligned a fair bit already throughout his young career and you never seem him drop his head. He might have had struggles on the ice but his effort can never be faulted. Looking forward to a good season from Jakub.

[titanium2 867]

Kindl is, without any doubt whatsoever, my favourite prospect.

(looks at your avatar and signature)...Really?...

[Aussie_Wing 354]

(looks at your avatar and signature)...Really?...

I rotate between a few guys all the time. Kindl will be my avatar and sig soon, don't you worry.

[eva unit zero 271]

I honestly doubt Kindl will outplay Lebds anytime soon (if at all)...Some here think Meech is gonna take Lebda's spot - that ain't gonna happen either.

Lebda has been solid, and isn't costing much; this could be his last year in Detroit, but then again with Lilja not yet 100% (he may never be) Lebda may find himself being offered a contract from Holland to stick around for a few more years.

Ultimately, the fate of Lebda and Stuart rest on a few things. What happens with Lidstrom and Lilja, as well as Kolosov's performance in camp and Meech's performance this season. Stuart is almost certainly gone if Lidstrom returns, and Lebda is gone if: Lilja can play OR Kolosov jumps him on the depth chart OR Meech jumps him on the depth chart.

[robb himself 143]

If I hear one more reference to Stuart being traded, I will lose my mind.

THIS.

[beepbeep 3]

Man I hope he can follow in Ericsson's footsteps but to do so he'll have to become competent defensively. He's definitely an offensively gifted guy but his attention to defensive positioning is severely lacking. He's still young, though, and being defensively weak is a common problem for young d-men. Kindl just needs to stay focused and learn to play with his maximum intensity every night. So far he's been lucky in terms of health (knock on wood!) so he's had tons of experience at the pro level for a 2nd year AHL player.

At this point the depth chart for D-men looks like this:

1. Lidstrom

2. Rafalski

3. Kronwall

4a. Stuart

4b. Ericsson (Based on his play in the playoffs, it looks like Ericsson can jump over Stuart this season)

6. Lilja (2010 UFA)

7. Lebda (2010 UFA-- due for a raise and thus will lose pretty much the only thing keeping him here--price)

8. Meech (2010 RFA-- gonezo unless Lilja impresses and is willing to stay for around his current salary)

Kindl won't play in Detroit next year unless he's secured a spot in the top 6. (He's too valuable to have sitting in the pressbox when he could be developing in GR and the 10-11 season will be his last year with waiver free status)

Assuming Lilja comes back and plays well we know Lebda won't be in Detroit next year.

So basically, Kindl has to have any of the following happen:

--> Outplay Lilja and Meech in training camp next year

--> Stuart gets traded because Ericsson plays him out of a top 4 job AND Holland decides Stuart isn't worth paying 3.75 million to to play on the 3rd pairing while he waits for Lidstrom to retire (since Stuart will be a valuable piece when Lidstrom retires and the top 4 is suddenly about 80% less impresive). Holland needs to decide if he'll try to "replace" Lidstrom via a trade or free agency (replace being used loosely since no one in the league is could replace Lidstrom) or whether he thinks Kronwall has progressed enough to move up to the top pairing and Ericsson/Stuart is a strong enough second pairing. Based on Kronwall's progression I believe he'll be good enough to play on the top line when Lidstrom eventually retires (hopefully he signs a two year deal at the end of this season or even stays longer-- I'd rather he gradually phases himself out than just leave so close to his peak). This situation is dependant on Lidstrom's plans after this season and Stuart, Kronwall, Rafalski and Ericsson's play this season.

--> Lilja doesn't return to form, Lebda out prices himself and Meech doesn't prove he's more than a 7th d-man. In this case Kindl's the only viable option within the organization baring a monster season by Kolosov.

--> Kindl plays so well in the AHL this season that leaving him in GR would be stupid.

If you look at the depth chart below Meech we see this (note that I've ignored Delmore since he's retchedly bad defensively and Janik because he's a 29 year old spare part and not a future piece of the organization):

9. Kindl [22 years old]

10. Kolosov [23] (Strong AHL season last year-- considered most improved player on the Griffins by many)

11. Smith [20] (hasn't played pro yet and won't until next season at the earliest, so unlikely to jump in sooner)

12. Lashoff [19] (OHL last year, playing in the OHL this season too)

13. Nicastro [19] (USHL last year, will play for Boston in the NCAA this season)

14. Pyett [21] (struggled mightily in his rookie AHL season-- looking to bounce back big this season)

15. Piche [21] (QMJHL last year, will be an AHL rookie this year)

16. Ehrhardt [20] (WHL last year, I assume he'll still be in the WHL this season)

17. Rufenach [20] (NCAA last year, will stay in the NCAA this season)

(note that I haven't included 09 picks in this list because the odds of them pushing past Kindl in one year are minuscule when it comes to the Red Wings and how they develop prospects)

So realistically, Kindl's only going to face competition from guys who've played in the AHL if he's trying to win a spot next year (assuming a non-AHL d-man doesn't blow him away in camp and the preseason, but a youngin' hasn't made the team that way since Fischer). Well those d-men only really include Kolosov, Pyett and Piche. Piche is a rookie this season and doesn't really project as more than a 3rd pairing d-man so I doubt Kindl has much to worry about. Pyett would have to have the bounce back season of the century to pass Kindl and Kolosov would have to drastically increase his offensive production (although his defensive game is coming along nicely and he's a very physical player who seems committed to improving and playing hard every night, so Kindl might have to worry about him if he can't put together a strong season this year).

Man, I wish I got bonus points for rambling my way into posts of this ridiculous length.

Babcocks reasoning for pairing him with Lidstrom for training camp obviously is try to help him with his positioning problems, hopefully is works out..

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Kindl is, without any doubt whatsoever, my favourite prospect. I’ve been pumped about him ever since the day he was drafted. So much upside, the most of any of our prospects. He’s still very raw, is prone to frustrating turnovers and he’s very inconsistent but I think the end result will be something very special.

That quote in bold is terrific to read, he’s obviously got his head screwed on right. To his credit, he’s been maligned a fair bit already throughout his young career and you never seem him drop his head. He might have had struggles on the ice but his effort can never be faulted. Looking forward to a good season from Jakub.

I agree 100% man. This is why Kindl drives me nuts-- he has all the tools to be a #1 d-man and a perennial all-star. He's big, strong, has great hockey sense, sees the ice very well and has a powerful, accurate shot. He can pass, hit and skate like a #1 d-man. He's got the skills to be a future Norris winner.

On the other side of the coin-- he's inconsistent, has long lapses in judgment (when he's off his game) and is very prone to turn-overs. Last season he played 4 months of exciting, promising hockey that made me think "this guy will be playing on the top pairing in Detroit in 5 years". Then he played 4 months of dismal hockey that made me think "Jesus, trade this kid while his upside is still 'untapped' and other teams think he's worth something". Obviously I don't want the Wings to give up on him, but last season ended so poorly for him that I was close to wishing that. I just couldn't get over how he could play 4 months straight without showing us the glimpses of brilliance he did the previous half of the season.

Then again, Kindl almost made the Wings out of camp in 06-07-- before his rookie season in the AHL. When this kid is "on" he's frigging impressive. Really impressive. All we can hope for is that he learns to lock himself into "on" mode permanently, or at least learns to put bad games behind him and start fresh. That last part is the hardest for young pros. Doing what Ozzy does so well-- having a short memory when it comes to bad games, is incredibly difficult and it's the key to being an effective professional athlete. Both Hudler and Filppula struggled with that throughout their NHL careers. Imagine how good Filppula could be if he nailed down the secret to consistency! But that's often the big difference between a very good player and an excellent player.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Babcocks reasoning for pairing him with Lidstrom for training camp obviously is try to help him with his positioning problems, hopefully is works out..

Oh I agree 100%. As Lidstrom approaches retirement, pairing him with the future top d-men of this team becomes more and more critical. That's why I pray that Ericsson gets to play some significant minutes with Lidstrom this season. That will most likely be limited to the PK and situations when Rafalski isn't paired with Lids due to injury, line shuffling or the odd times during the game when Babs is balancing out the minutes played for different d-men.

My hope is that Ericsson out plays Stuart (not an unlikely possibility) and makes his way onto the top 4. In that case Babs might consider pairing the guys like this:

Lidstrom-Ericsson (24 mins a night)

Rafalski-Kronwall (24 mins a night)

Stuart-Lilja/Lebda (12 mins a night)

I know it's unlikely that he'll split Lids and Rafalski at even strength, but I just Ericsson to get as much time as possible to learn from Lidstrom before he retires.

[mmamolo 287]

Ultimately, the fate of Lebda and Stuart rest on a few things. What happens with Lidstrom and Lilja, as well as Kolosov's performance in camp and Meech's performance this season. Stuart is almost certainly gone if Lidstrom returns, and Lebda is gone if: Lilja can play OR Kolosov jumps him on the depth chart OR Meech jumps him on the depth chart.

I don't see how Stuart would 'almost certainly be gone if Lidstrom returns.' Ericsson is on the books at 900k for two seasons. No matter how well he does this season with all of our top five returning (based on the assumption Lidstrom coems back) there'd be no reason to move Stuart. Lidstrom's minutes, and Rafalski's for that matter, would be reduced and Ericsson would fill that void. In my mind it makes zero sense to move Stuart if Lidstrom returns next year.

Plus, Kolosov is still a ways away if you ask me. I think next season we'll see Lidstrom return, Kindl get promoted and one of Lilja, Lebda and Meech sticks around. This is also assuming Lilja is healthy enough to come back.

[beepbeep 3]

Oh I agree 100%. As Lidstrom approaches retirement, pairing him with the future top d-men of this team becomes more and more critical. That's why I pray that Ericsson gets to play some significant minutes with Lidstrom this season. That will most likely be limited to the PK and situations when Rafalski isn't paired with Lids due to injury, line shuffling or the odd times during the game when Babs is balancing out the minutes played for different d-men.

My hope is that Ericsson out plays Stuart (not an unlikely possibility) and makes his way onto the top 4. In that case Babs might consider pairing the guys like this:

Lidstrom-Ericsson (24 mins a night)

Rafalski-Kronwall (24 mins a night)

Stuart-Lilja/Lebda (12 mins a night)

I know it's unlikely that he'll split Lids and Rafalski at even strength, but I just Ericsson to get as much time as possible to learn from Lidstrom before he retires.

I was very surprised that Babcock didn't put Ericsson with Lidstrom last season he certainly couldn't have played any worse than Rafalski. Hopefully Lids signs another 2 yr deal and can tuter these kids. If Ericsson, Kindl, Kolosov and Lashoff all pan out we will have a huge defence.

Edited September 14, 2009 by beepbeep

[Buppy 1,720]

Ultimately, the fate of Lebda and Stuart rest on a few things. What happens with Lidstrom and Lilja, as well as Kolosov's performance in camp and Meech's performance this season. Stuart is almost certainly gone if Lidstrom returns, and Lebda is gone if: Lilja can play OR Kolosov jumps him on the depth chart OR Meech jumps him on the depth chart.

Curious why you think Stuart would be gone? Barring a very large reduction in the cap, we should have no problems keeping his salary, even if Ericsson were to leapfrog him on the depth chart.

Kindl has a one-way contract after this year. He'll be on the roster or out of the organization. Lebda is UFA, Meech RFA, so Meech will probably stay if either of them does. I don't expect Lilly to make it back. I'd say next year's defense is Nick, Rafi, Kronwall, Stuart, Ericsson, Kindl, Meech.

[egroen 384]

Curious why you think Stuart would be gone? Barring a very large reduction in the cap, we should have no problems keeping his salary, even if Ericsson were to leapfrog him on the depth chart.

Kindl has a one-way contract after this year. He'll be on the roster or out of the organization. Lebda is UFA, Meech RFA, so Meech will probably stay if either of them does. I don't expect Lilly to make it back. I'd say next year's defense is Nick, Rafi, Kronwall, Stuart, Ericsson, Kindl, Meech.

Kindl signed his first contract at the age of 20, which gives him 3 years of waiver exemption (or 160 NHL games played).

He'll have to be up by the 2010-11 season -- irregardless of whether or not he is on a one-way or two-way contract.

[T.Low 1,011]

How about this: he's not about chasing down the highest bidder or the team that can promise him the most minutes. He buys into the Wings philosophy.

Yes. And he's not bitching and complaining. He's got the "know" going on.

[Peleshob 0]

I don't know why people are so eager to move Stuart. With Lidstrom and Rafalski getting older, who do you think is going to play big minutes? Aside from his last game (which he'll be more remembered for) Stuart was amazing in the post-season. People just like to pick at the negative side of what happened. The guy's a solid defenseman who had a bad game at the wrong time.

[xBrave_Heartx 0]

Kindl will be a star. Mark my words.

I see him being an Andrej Meszaros type player. Good Comparison?

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Kindl signed his first contract at the age of 20, which gives him 3 years of waiver exemption (or 160 NHL games played).

He'll have to be up by the 2010-11 season -- irregardless of whether or not he is on a one-way or two-way contract.

Why three years? I was under the impression forwards got roughly the equivalent of 4 years to play in the AHL before they lose their waiver exempt status.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

I don't see how Stuart would 'almost certainly be gone if Lidstrom returns.' Ericsson is on the books at 900k for two seasons. No matter how well he does this season with all of our top five returning (based on the assumption Lidstrom coems back) there'd be no reason to move Stuart. Lidstrom's minutes, and Rafalski's for that matter, would be reduced and Ericsson would fill that void. In my mind it makes zero sense to move Stuart if Lidstrom returns next year.

Plus, Kolosov is still a ways away if you ask me. I think next season we'll see Lidstrom return, Kindl get promoted and one of Lilja, Lebda and Meech sticks around. This is also assuming Lilja is healthy enough to come back.

Here's what I think Eva's reasoning is for that comment:

-Ericsson will more than likely jump over Stuart in the depth chart

-If Lidstrom returns that means Stuart is now being paid 3.75 million a season to play on the 3rd pairing

-Keeping Stuart on the 2nd pairing and Ericsson on the 3rd simply because Stuart makes so much is stupid and detrimental to Ericsson's development.

-Stuart's NTC is over after this season.

-Kindl will be playing next season, further jamming up defense. Kindl will have to get a top six position on the defense-- he's too important of a prospect to let set in the press box.

-Again, why pay Stuart 3.75 million to play on the third pairing? That makes no sense in a cap world. The logical choice is to trade him next summer and get something back for him while relieving the log-jam on defense and creating more cap room.

[egroen 384]

Why three years? I was under the impression forwards got roughly the equivalent of 4 years to play in the AHL before they lose their waiver exempt status.

It varies....

http://www.nhlscap.com/waivers.htm