Jake Ryan 1 Report post Posted October 7, 2009 So I ask you then, how does any of this - as you think/said it does- interpret to "People act like Holmstrom is making the Norris trophy winner, the Selke trophy winner, and the Conn Smythe trophy winner better players." I love you brother. I know you have Holmstromeningitis, but I still love you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Echolalia 2,961 Report post Posted October 7, 2009 (edited) Exactly. People act like Holmstrom is making the Norris trophy winner, the Selke trophy winner, and the Conn Smythe trophy winner better players. Ha! I will give you that Holmstrom served a purpose IN THE PAST. I'm not trying to discredit what he has done IN THE PAST. All I'm saying is that he's NOT doing what he did in the past. He's washed up. Time to demote his ass and move on to our youth, AKA Darren Helm. What in Helm's history makes you think he is capable in the least of top line minutes, let alone playing alongside top line skill? He hasn't proven himself as a capable player beyond a grinder role in the NHL. In 23 regular season games, Helm has a grand total of 1 assist (no goals). What about the playoffs you ask? In 41 games he has a total of nine points. Forget the NHL, he hasn't even had a 20 goal season in the AHL (or a 40 point season, for that matter). Last year in the AHL Helm had 37 points. Interestingly enough Tomas Holmstrom (who played a great deal of the season injured last year as we all already know, and two games less than Helm in the AHL) also scored 37 points, except at the NHL level. I can understand your hatred for Homer in the first line to a degree, but to say that Helm is the ideal replacement is absolutely ridiculous. Also, if you don't want Homer on the top line, then where the hell do you put him? His only real asset is the fact that he can plant himself in front of a goalie, take crosschecks, and still tip in shots/rebounds for goals, which also incidentally generates room for more skilled players, by the way. The first and second lines are synonymous in terms of skill, so I'm assuming you don't want him in the top six, and the third and fourth lines aren't skilled enough to take full advantage of Homer's strengths, or cover up for his deficits. He would essentially rot away a roster spot and cap space on the third and fourth lines and make our bottom six a liability. So assign him to Grand Rapids? And fill in that extra line with who? Maltby? Eaves? Abdelkader? They're even worse than Helm in terms of production. Edited October 7, 2009 by Echolalia Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SouthernWingsFan 854 Report post Posted October 7, 2009 I love you brother. I know you have Holmstromeningitis, but I still love you. Why don't you try to answer the question instead of dodging or calling people cute names. Nobody's going to get on your case if you don't answer it right or simply man up that you have a ridiculous biasedness. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buppy 1,720 Report post Posted October 7, 2009 Huh? Where did you come up with that? Homer is a career +38 in the regular season and +23 in the playoffs. He has had 6 straight years since his last - year. And +/- doesn't count on the powerplay when he scored many of his goals. +38 is not all that impressive for an 11 year career. And that's all been since he's been playing mostly top line with some great players on a team that has for the most part been very good both offensively and defensively. He was -16 pre-lockout, -45 in his first 6 seasons... Draper is a +73 career (even with his decline over the past few years), Maltby was well above +38 for a while...and those are guys who rarely score and spent a lot of their time playing against top lines. 'Weak' may or may not be a bit too far, my perception skewed by a team that has produced 6 Selke trophies since '94, but still, Homer is not and never has been particularly good defensively. More importantly, none of that, nor Bertuzzi, really have anything to do with what I was talking about anyway. The point of the quoted post was that Homer's skills have not significantly fallen off. He had a bad playoff run, just like Datsyuk and Hossa. The only thing that may have declined is his ability to absorb punishment without injury. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Drake_Marcus 890 Report post Posted October 7, 2009 Well, we've got this argument: Holmstrom has better hands than Helm. Really, Helm scored 4 goals on the 4th line and Holmstrom scored 2 goals on the 1st line and power play last playoffs. ACCEPTED REJECTED. Holmstrom is a better passer than Helm. Type in "Holmstrom Pass" into youtube or TRY to find a nice pass from Holmstrom on video somewhere. ACCEPTED REJECTED. Neither of them are known for their passing. Holmstrom's bigger than Darren Helm. ACCEPTED. Because of this, he's also slower, easier to play defense against, and a bigger euro ***** than he'd be if he lost some weight. Darren Helm - Faster, Tougher, more aggressive, BETTER. Enough said. This is a stupid argument. Anyone who thinks that Darren Helm should play behind Tomas Holmstrom at this point in their respective careers is just NOT WATCHING obviously understands hockey and intelligently evaluates their respective skills. That's all there is to it. Fixed it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jake Ryan 1 Report post Posted October 7, 2009 What in Helm's history makes you think he is capable in the least of top line minutes, let alone playing alongside top line skill? He hasn't proven himself as a capable player beyond a grinder role in the NHL. In 23 regular season games, Helm has a grand total of 1 assist (no goals). What about the playoffs you ask? In 41 games he has a total of nine points. Forget the NHL, he hasn't even had a 20 goal season in the AHL (or a 40 point season, for that matter). Last year in the AHL Helm had 37 points. Interestingly enough Tomas Holmstrom (who played a great deal of the season injured last year as we all already know, and two games less than Helm in the AHL) also scored 37 points, except at the NHL level. I can understand your hatred for Homer in the first line to a degree, but to say that Helm is the ideal replacement is absolutely ridiculous. Also, if you don't want Homer on the top line, then where the hell do you put him? His only real asset is the fact that he can plant himself in front of a goalie, take crosschecks, and still tip in shots/rebounds for goals, which also incidentally generates room for more skilled players, by the way. The first and second lines are synonymous in terms of skill, so I'm assuming you don't want him in the top six, and the third and fourth lines aren't skilled enough to take full advantage of Homer's strengths, or cover up for his deficits. He would essentially rot away a roster spot and cap space on the third and fourth lines and make our bottom six a liability. So assign him to Grand Rapids? And fill in that extra line with who? Maltby? Eaves? Abdelkader? They're even worse than Helm in terms of production. Wow. You have never seen a center double shifted or 1.5 shifted? Are you serious? Here's how I'd run it if I were coaching the Wings. 1st Line = Helm - Datsyuk - Zetterberg 2nd Line = Bertuzzi - Filppula - Cleary 3rd Line = Leino - Williams - Franzen 4th Line = Helm - Draper - Maltby 5th Line = Franzen - Datsyuk - Zetterberg 6th Line = Bertuzzi - Filppula - Cleary 7th Line = Leino - Williams - Helm 8th Line = Franzen - Draper - Maltby Repeat Process PP1 - Holmstrom - Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Lidstrom - Williams PP2 - Bertuzzi - Filppula -- Franzen - Ericsson - Rafalski PK1 - Helm - Cleary - Lidstrom - Ericsson PK2 - Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Rafalski - Meech PK3 - Maltby - Draper - Stuart - Kronwall Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Drake_Marcus 890 Report post Posted October 7, 2009 Wow. You have never seen a center double shifted or 1.5 shifted? Are you serious? Here's how I'd run it if I were coaching the Wings. 1st Line = Helm - Datsyuk - Zetterberg 2nd Line = Bertuzzi - Filppula - Cleary 3rd Line = Leino - Williams - Franzen 4th Line = Helm - Draper - Maltby 5th Line = Franzen - Datsyuk - Zetterberg 6th Line = Bertuzzi - Filppula - Cleary 7th Line = Leino - Williams - Helm 8th Line = Franzen - Draper - Maltby Repeat Process PP1 - Holmstrom - Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Lidstrom - Williams PP2 - Bertuzzi - Filppula -- Franzen - Ericsson - Rafalski PK1 - Helm - Cleary - Lidstrom - Ericsson PK2 - Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Rafalski - Meech PK3 - Maltby - Draper - Stuart - Kronwall Generally, while double shifting isn't preferred, it's done for line matching purposes or based on a particular situation. It's usually not about adding one player to two different lines unless the bench is short. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zetts 236 Report post Posted October 7, 2009 Wow. You have never seen a center double shifted or 1.5 shifted? Are you serious? Here's how I'd run it if I were coaching the Wings. 1st Line = Helm - Datsyuk - Zetterberg 2nd Line = Bertuzzi - Filppula - Cleary 3rd Line = Leino - Williams - Franzen 4th Line = Helm - Draper - Maltby 5th Line = Franzen - Datsyuk - Zetterberg 6th Line = Bertuzzi - Filppula - Cleary 7th Line = Leino - Williams - Helm 8th Line = Franzen - Draper - Maltby Repeat Process PP1 - Holmstrom - Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Lidstrom - Williams PP2 - Bertuzzi - Filppula -- Franzen - Ericsson - Rafalski PK1 - Helm - Cleary - Lidstrom - Ericsson PK2 - Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Rafalski - Meech PK3 - Maltby - Draper - Stuart - Kronwall Not only is Helm now first line material, but he should play more than Datsyuk and Zetterberg? Oh, do I feel sorry for you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Echolalia 2,961 Report post Posted October 7, 2009 Wow. You have never seen a center double shifted or 1.5 shifted? Are you serious? Here's how I'd run it if I were coaching the Wings. 1st Line = Helm - Datsyuk - Zetterberg 2nd Line = Bertuzzi - Filppula - Cleary 3rd Line = Leino - Williams - Franzen 4th Line = Helm - Draper - Maltby 5th Line = Franzen - Datsyuk - Zetterberg 6th Line = Bertuzzi - Filppula - Cleary 7th Line = Leino - Williams - Helm 8th Line = Franzen - Draper - Maltby Hahaha I don't even know how to respond to this. Not only did you totally ignore everything that I said about Helm not being capable of playing on the top line, but now you say that you would have Helm playing every 3 shifts out of 8, with 6 different players. Gotta love Franzen playing with Draper and Maltby too. I was really going to try to take your argument seriously, because I was expecting a well thought out response that at least makes Helm seem slightly appealing on the top line, but you really left me hanging here. At least I got a laugh out of it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jake Ryan 1 Report post Posted October 7, 2009 Generally, while double shifting isn't preferred, it's done for line matching purposes or based on a particular situation. It's usually not about adding one player to two different lines unless the bench is short. With Holmstrom, our bench is short. He's a power play specialist and adds no value during 5 on 5 play. Therefore, we either make an adjustment (what I just showed you), or we suffer. Are you ok with the suffering? I hate losing the Stanley Cup to Pittsburgh and regular season games to St. Louis. I'm not going to speak for you, though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buppy 1,720 Report post Posted October 7, 2009 everything said about homers qualities is absolutely correct, but regarding his play in the first two games, it is all said in the wrong tense.....it must say "....was...." and no longer "...is...." maybe he can turn around and he had just 2 bad games, than i´have no problem with him on the first line, but it sure did not look like it´s going to happen. time will tell. This I don't get. I missed the first game (thanks DirecTV/Comcast), but he looked fine and scored a goal in the 2nd game. If all we're basing this on is the playoffs and the first two games, then you should be saying the same thing about Datsyuk. Relatively speaking, he's been worse. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NGKEIB 32 Report post Posted October 7, 2009 PP1 - Holmstrom - Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Lidstrom - Williams PP2 - Bertuzzi - Filppula -- Franzen - Ericsson - Rafalski PK1 - Helm - Cleary - Lidstrom - Ericsson PK2 - Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Rafalski - Meech PK3 - Maltby - Draper - Stuart - Kronwall I think that your even strength line combos have been subjected to enough criticism, so I'd just like to highlight something that made me chuckle. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jake Ryan 1 Report post Posted October 7, 2009 This I don't get. I missed the first game (thanks DirecTV/Comcast), but he looked fine and scored a goal in the 2nd game. If all we're basing this on is the playoffs and the first two games, then you should be saying the same thing about Datsyuk. Relatively speaking, he's been worse. Datsyuk has a case of Holmstromeningitis, though. You can't blame him while he's sick. Kronwall fighting Souray! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Drake_Marcus 890 Report post Posted October 7, 2009 With Holmstrom, our bench is short. He's a power play specialist and adds no value during 5 on 5 play. Therefore, we either make an adjustment (what I just showed you), or we suffer. Are you ok with the suffering? I hate losing the Stanley Cup to Pittsburgh and regular season games to St. Louis. I'm not going to speak for you, though. While Holmstrom's definitely not looking great on the first line 5 on 5 right now, Helm isn't the solution. Helm has no place on the top two lines under any circumstances. Sorry. While you don't believe it, Holmstrom's hands and offensive instincts/vision is superior to Helm's in every sense. That's why Holmstrom's made his living in the top six and Helm never will. Guess who set Holmstrom up in this role? The greatest coach in hockey history-- Bowman. If Helm had any place on the top two lines Babcock would've tried him there at some point. Remember my post about Helm's "amazing" 9 points in 41 playoff games? I know you think that's something that could scale up when you stick him on a higher line but it doesn't really work that way. You can't stick any NHL player on a top line and expect that they'd suddenly produce 1st line points. Helm's also yet to score a regular season goal. And even if we ignore his lack of production in the regular season his playoff production only scales up to 18pts in an 82 game season. That's not particularly impressive, but it would be if it were Helm's rookie numbers. One thing that contributes to Helm's modest success so far in the playoffs is that he's a relative unknown, you can expect that once he played in the top six goalies and defensemen would figure him out and his one-trick pony (speedy approach followed up with a quick shot) would die pretty quickly. That's one of the hardest things about becoming a regular in the NHL and being asked to score-- the other team starts paying attention and figures out your tricks. That's why successful offensive producers have to be creative and adaptable. And that's where Helm's lack of vision and offensive skill would hurt him. Holmstrom had a bad playoffs this year, but he's had great ones the rest of his career. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Echolalia 2,961 Report post Posted October 7, 2009 I think that your even strength line combos have been subjected to enough criticism, so I'd just like to highlight something that made me chuckle. Seeing Helm on three of eight lines and Franzen on a line with Maltby and Draper is what did it for me. I didn't even see that Meech made it to the penalty kill. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Crymson Report post Posted October 7, 2009 Datsyuk has a case of Holmstromeningitis, though. You can't blame him while he's sick. Kronwall fighting Souray! Doesn't it strike you as odd that you're full of vitriol and hostility towards a player who has been a sizable part of the Wings` success over the past decade, just because he's injured and not playing at a high level, and you're also essentially blaming him for the fact that the coach is choosing to play him on the top two lines and the power play? Some fan you are---"Yeah, I know you've been very important to the team, but now you suck, so don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!" Per your video: That's not Niklas Kronwall. It's his brother. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hack & Whack Rule! 160 Report post Posted October 7, 2009 Wow. You have never seen a center double shifted or 1.5 shifted? Are you serious? Here's how I'd run it if I were coaching the Wings. 1st Line = Helm - Datsyuk - Zetterberg 2nd Line = Bertuzzi - Filppula - Cleary 3rd Line = Leino - Williams - Franzen 4th Line = Helm - Draper - Maltby 5th Line = Franzen - Datsyuk - Zetterberg 6th Line = Bertuzzi - Filppula - Cleary 7th Line = Leino - Williams - Helm 8th Line = Franzen - Draper - Maltby Repeat Process PP1 - Holmstrom - Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Lidstrom - Williams PP2 - Bertuzzi - Filppula -- Franzen - Ericsson - Rafalski PK1 - Helm - Cleary - Lidstrom - Ericsson PK2 - Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Rafalski - Meech PK3 - Maltby - Draper - Stuart - Kronwall So, if Babs is on his way out, I seriously hope that there is someone else ready to take the position before this guy! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jake Ryan 1 Report post Posted October 7, 2009 So, if Babs is on his way out, I seriously hope that there is someone else ready to take the position before this guy! I would be a great coach. You'd just have to lose your HHO is all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buppy 1,720 Report post Posted October 7, 2009 Wow. You have never seen a center double shifted or 1.5 shifted? Are you serious? Here's how I'd run it if I were coaching the Wings. 1st Line = Helm - Datsyuk - Zetterberg 2nd Line = Bertuzzi - Filppula - Cleary 3rd Line = Leino - Williams - Franzen 4th Line = Helm - Draper - Maltby 5th Line = Franzen - Datsyuk - Zetterberg 6th Line = Bertuzzi - Filppula - Cleary 7th Line = Leino - Williams - Helm 8th Line = Franzen - Draper - Maltby Repeat Process PP1 - Holmstrom - Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Lidstrom - Williams PP2 - Bertuzzi - Filppula -- Franzen - Ericsson - Rafalski PK1 - Helm - Cleary - Lidstrom - Ericsson PK2 - Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Rafalski - Meech PK3 - Maltby - Draper - Stuart - Kronwall I can't decide what's more amusing: Rafi and Meech paired on the PK Ericsson over Kronwall on the PP Bert over Cleary on the PP Draper and Maltby paired on the PK Helm on the top line Franzen with Draper and Maltby Helm playing more than Pav and Hank Helm never playing center Homer never playing ES So Jake...Helm is featured pretty predominantly in your 'slideshow', huh? Or are you his mom? Or him? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hack & Whack Rule! 160 Report post Posted October 7, 2009 (edited) I would be a great coach. You'd just have to lose your HHO is all. Great? I think a bit of an overstatement or I think you would be there. I don't think I'd be great at the job, but sometimes I can pick out certain follies that others run with. The trick is to know when to stop running with those follies and admit that you made a booboo. Your booboo is not realizing that you are tiring out Helm part way through the second period of every game, causing a decline in his play throughout the season, and making him a no-show in the playoffs. While I agree that Helm is a good guy to have out there, "everything in moderation" seems to be a good policy. Edit: spelling Edited October 7, 2009 by Hack & Whack Rule! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lets go pavel 2 Report post Posted October 7, 2009 Great? I think a bit of an overstatement or I think you would be there. I don't think I'd be great at the job, but sometimes I can pick out certain follies that others run with. The trick is to know when to stop running with those follies and admit that you made a booboo. Your booboo is not realizing that you are tiring out Helm part way through the second period of every game, causing a decline in his play throughout the season, and making him a no-show in the playoffs. While I agree that Helm is a good guy to have out there, "everything in moderation" seems to be a good policy. Edit: spelling What?!? Helm is a 30g 80pt player with normal shifts ... if we double shift him the entire season he'll put up 60 goals and 140 points! That's way better than ole ninety-sux! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cupforwings 138 Report post Posted October 7, 2009 Well, we've got this argument: Holmstrom has better hands than Helm. Really, Helm scored 4 goals on the 4th line and Holmstrom scored 2 goals on the 1st line and power play last playoffs. REJECTED. Holmstrom is a better passer than Helm. Type in "Holmstrom Pass" into youtube or TRY to find a nice pass from Holmstrom on video somewhere. REJECTED. Neither of them are known for their passing. Holmstrom's bigger than Darren Helm. ACCEPTED. Because of this, he's also slower, easier to play defense against, and a bigger euro ***** than he'd be if he lost some weight. Darren Helm - Faster, Tougher, more aggressive, BETTER. Enough said. This is a stupid argument. Anyone who thinks that Darren Helm should play behind Tomas Holmstrom at this point in their respective careers is just NOT WATCHING. That's all there is to it. Homer has hands... this proves it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jake Ryan 1 Report post Posted October 7, 2009 I can't decide what's more amusing: Rafi and Meech paired on the PK Ericsson over Kronwall on the PP Bert over Cleary on the PP Draper and Maltby paired on the PK Helm on the top line Franzen with Draper and Maltby Helm playing more than Pav and Hank Helm never playing center Homer never playing ES So Jake...Helm is featured pretty predominantly in your 'slideshow', huh? Or are you his mom? Or him? You're forgetting that Power Play and Penalty Kill occupy about 33% of today's NHL game. With Hank and Pav seeing half of that time (8-10 minutes) and Helm seeing just a bit of it, Hank and Pavs would end up with their due share of time on ice. You wouldn't know this, because you're not a good coach like me. But you'll learn. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hack & Whack Rule! 160 Report post Posted October 7, 2009 Ha ha! Now I know why the name Jake Ryan is so familiar. It's because I have kids! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jake Ryan 1 Report post Posted October 7, 2009 Homer has hands... this proves it 1:05 Does that guy have hands too? He even did it with defenders around him. Come on. Robitaille had hands. Hull had hands. It's not just about hand-eye coordination. It's about being able to see the corners and pot the puck from 30 feet in not matter what position you're in. That's what hands are about. Yzerman and Shanahan had hands. Holmstrom's got good hand-eye coordination. I'll give you that. But to say he has hands is ridiculous. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
