a partner for pasha and the mule

[Guest micah]

You forgot about Holmstrom's toughness. Come on. Look at the way he intimidates the opponent:

I had forgotten about Homer's standing turtle against Chris Murray, and Murray was always a guy I liked, thanks for that.

[Jake Ryan 1]

:rotflmao:

Wow. Helm on the first line. Wow.

I can see your reasoning for taking Homer off the first line, but HELM on the FIRST LINE??

Maybe Bertuzzi or Zetterberg or Cleary.

Hell I'd put Flip on the first line w/ Dats before I would Helm.

Just my opinion. I respect yours too, even though it made me laugh!

EVERY time Helm hit the ice in the playoffs, the fans went nuts. Do you think they were cheering just because they liked the name "Helm"? Come on. The guy is electric. Why is it so hard to fathom putting a speedster on the first line? Who cares if he doesn't have the hands of Shanahan or Zetterberg. He doesn't have to have the hands of Shanahan or Zetterberg. He just needs to open up room for Datsyuk and Franzen. How do you open up room for playmakers and snipers? THINK.

HOW DO YOU OPEN UP ROOM FOR PLAYMAKERS AND SNIPERS?

With a 36 year old who is one of the slowest skaters in the league and doesn't have the skill to dig pucks out of the corner or the skill to pass them tape to tape through defenders if he could dig the puck out?

Or with a speedster who's a threat to hit a home run every time he's on the ice? (and if you don't believe Helm can bury his breakaways, just watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soF8M9E-Az8)

I can't believe people have such a hard time seeing how Darren Helm could fit in with Datsyuk and Franzen.

[Doc Holiday 0]

The Holmstrom Hard On. It's a common condition around these parts. People glorify a player who is clearly crappy as of today because of services performed in the past. No matter how bad Ninety-Sux stinks up the ice (see 2009 playoffs), people will still call out for him to play with the Red Wings' top players and yell "Homer" as if he's next of kin. The Holmstrom Hard On is almost impossible to get rid of for many around here. Babcock can't get rid of his, so I'm starting to think there may not be a cure.

That is the dumbest acronym I've ever seen on these boards.

Congrats, your idiocy has reached new heights.

[Jake Ryan 1]

That is the dumbest acronym I've ever seen on these boards.

Congrats, your idiocy has reached new heights.

Just for you, Doc. I would like to introduce you to Darren Helm. You obviously don't watch the games, so watch this clip so you can get a taste of an effective Detroit Red Wings player.

[Jake Ryan 1]

I had forgotten about Homer's standing turtle against Chris Murray, and Murray was always a guy I liked, thanks for that.

You cannot call that turtling. Didn't you see the fear in Murray's eyes?

For real, it's almost laughable how people think Tomas Holmstrom is tough. The guy is one of the biggest sissies in the NHL. If you watch closely, you can see Murray hold a few punches back as he gives a "are you for real" look to Tomas because he doesn't want to anihilate the sissy cowering in front of him.

I can't wait til the 2.25 million the Wings are wasting on Ninety-Sux clears up. That will be a good day for the Wings.

[Doc Holiday 0]

Just for you, Doc. I would like to introduce you to Darren Helm. You obviously don't watch the games, so watch this clip so you can get a taste of an effective Detroit Red Wings player.

I watched the games, and Darren Helm is not the answer.

He is an energy guy, not a skilled guy. And this isn't me defending Holmstrom. This is me beiong realistic and knowing that just because Helm is fast and had a great playoffs (from a third liner's standards) doesn't mean he would be an effective top line player.

[blankrap 9]

He certainly didn't contribute to not giving up 4 and 5 goals. It's not like he's some Selke candidate out there. Sucks that Datsyuk has to play with this cancer constantly. Mike Babcock is an absolute blind fool.

Blind fool? Have you seen babs hair? If he was blind how could he be sure his hair looked so great all the time?

[Broken 16 381]

Your washed up boy Homer has more points than Datsyuk does right now, and more goals than Franzen.

I would like to see Homer Dats and Zetterberg back together

Franzen Filppulla Leino

Williams Cleary Bertuzzi

Whoever is the flavor of the week on the fourth line

How long do you think Homer is gonna last? I see Homer being 'not the same' by All-Star break... and that is being generous.

[Jake Ryan 1]

I watched the games, and Darren Helm is not the answer.

He is an energy guy, not a skilled guy. And this isn't me defending Holmstrom. This is me beiong realistic and knowing that just because Helm is fast and had a great playoffs (from a third liner's standards) doesn't mean he would be an effective top line player.

But it's better not to see "what if" and give Helm a chance based on the production he has given the Wings in his limited opportunity, right? It's better to keep letting Holmstrom POISON the top line, correct? Give Ninety-Sux 4 years and 10 million more because you know he's going to "get it back", right? I just want to be sure I understand your logic.

Helm 4 goals and 1 assist playing with the 4th line.

Holmstrom 2 goals and 5 assists playing with the first line AND power play units.

I can't believe that Red Wings fans don't want to see Helm up with Datsyuk and Franzen. I just can't believe it.

[Namingway 146]

The perfect partner for them is...

... MUSHA!

You, my friend, are awesome for posting this.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Namingway

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

You cannot call that turtling. Didn't you see the fear in Murray's eyes?

For real, it's almost laughable how people think Tomas Holmstrom is tough. The guy is one of the biggest sissies in the NHL. If you watch closely, you can see Murray hold a few punches back as he gives a "are you for real" look to Tomas because he doesn't want to anihilate the sissy cowering in front of him.

I can't wait til the 2.25 million the Wings are wasting on Ninety-Sux clears up. That will be a good day for the Wings.

Just because not just Holmstrom alone, but other Wings players as well, don't necessarily drop the gloves all the time or want to smack people around after a dead whistle or a scrum doesn't make you a sissy. There is more to hockey about proving how manly you are or measure how big your you know what is like a big bully fight in high school.

[Doc Holiday 0]

But it's better not to see "what if" and give Helm a chance based on the production he has given the Wings in his limited opportunity, right? It's better to keep letting Holmstrom POISON the top line, correct? Give Ninety-Sux 4 years and 10 million more because you know he's going to "get it back", right? I just want to be sure I understand your logic.

Helm 4 goals and 1 assist playing with the 4th line.

Holmstrom 2 goals and 5 assists playing with the first line AND power play units.

I can't believe that Red Wings fans don't want to see Helm up with Datsyuk and Franzen. I just can't believe it.

When did I ever say anything that you are insinuating?

Don't acccuse me of something when you have no basis for it.

[Broken 16 381]

But it's better not to see "what if" and give Helm a chance based on the production he has given the Wings in his limited opportunity, right? It's better to keep letting Holmstrom POISON the top line, correct? Give Ninety-Sux 4 years and 10 million more because you know he's going to "get it back", right? I just want to be sure I understand your logic.

Helm 4 goals and 1 assist playing with the 4th line.

Holmstrom 2 goals and 5 assists playing with the first line AND power play units.

I can't believe that Red Wings fans don't want to see Helm up with Datsyuk and Franzen. I just can't believe it.

I would LOVE to see Helm play on the first line with those guys. I think it would be ridiculously good. Throw Helm up there to dig pucks loose and crash around the net? Yes... PLEASE.

[Jake Ryan 1]

I would LOVE to see Helm play on the first line with those guys. I think it would be ridiculously good. Throw Helm up there to dig pucks loose and crash around the net? Yes... PLEASE.

Well, you are one of the few non-HHO'ers around here that can actually comprehend what comes through your retinas. Most of the people on here just stick their hands in the air and yell "Homer" at the top of their lungs no matter how bad he is playing. If you try and point out that the numbers don't match up with their defense of homer, then you get the "invaluables" argument. Then if you try and point out that getting cross checked in the back really isn't that much of a benefit to the team or isn't a benefit at all, you're in for it. At that point, you just don't understand hockey and aren't a true Red Wings fan. Fortunately, I never had an HHO. I liked Tomas Holmstrom back when he was playing well for the Red Wings. But as of right now, he just hurts them. So I have no problem with Babcock canning that guy. But Babcock's HHO cost the Wings a cup and continues to plague the team. We'll see if he can lose his first. That should help a lot of the others on here lose their HHO's.

[Theophany 110]

Darren Helm last year was a -7. Homer was a +18.

Darren Helm had 1 assists in 16 games. Homer had 14 goals 23 assists in 53 games.

Yes, Darren Helm can take Homer's spot. Absolutely.

...If we want the first line to suck.

Now, don't get me wrong; I love Helm. He's right up there with Lids, Fil, and Dats in my "who's your favorite 'Wing?" answer.

But he's not a first line guy. He's 25, and he's a third line center at best. He's an energy guy, a grinder; not a skill guy who has the finesse that Dats or Fil have.

Give him time and he may develop as a player to be a great first line or second line center, but right now, he's not our guy.

You can make arguments that Homer is getting old, there are better people to fill his spot, etc, be we don't have those people on the roster or in GR at this point.

Homer is not a 'cancer' that makes his line suck; in fact, his line is better than the second line (i.e. you'd have a better case to make that Bertuzzi is a cancer than Homer).

[11iscoming 1]

i understand that everyone can have his own opinion, but how is it laughable to think helm would fit in well with the first line?!

come on guys, this is no online hockeymanager game where you put the 3 players with highest skill points on the first line and they win every game for you.

this is reality.

we don´t need THE first line with all our star players on it. we need 3 good scoring lines and depending on the night one of them will be the first line, some nights pavels line, some nights hanks line, some nights filppullas line....that is the way to be succesful in todays nhl.

you can´t have only chiefs you need some workers too.

and btw i don´t say we lost the 2 games because of homer, i just say that line could be more effective. we lost the 2 games because of lebda (in big parts). in real life he looks even worse than on tv. please lilja come back...and until than...put in meech it can only get better. but that topic is already discussed elsewhere, sorry.

[Zetts 236]

I really think Holmstrom has been ok. He's certainly been better than some of the other players. Certain defensemen deserve to be criticized before him.

But, if you just want what a good alternative would be, I'd love to see a Cleary-Datsyuk-Mule line.

Actually, I'd love to see a Datsyuk-Zetterberg-Mule line, but I guess we have to spread out the depth a little bit.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Zetts

[Broken 16 381]

Darren Helm last year was a -7. Homer was a +18.

Darren Helm had 1 assists in 16 games. Homer had 14 goals 23 assists in 53 games.

Yes, Darren Helm can take Homer's spot. Absolutely.

...If we want the first line to suck.

Now, don't get me wrong; I love Helm. He's right up there with Lids, Fil, and Dats in my "who's your favorite 'Wing?" answer.

But he's not a first line guy. He's 25, and he's a third line center at best. He's an energy guy, a grinder; not a skill guy who has the finesse that Dats or Fil have.

Give him time and he may develop as a player to be a great first line or second line center, but right now, he's not our guy.

You can make arguments that Homer is getting old, there are better people to fill his spot, etc, be we don't have those people on the roster or in GR at this point.

Homer is not a 'cancer' that makes his line suck; in fact, his line is better than the second line (i.e. you'd have a better case to make that Bertuzzi is a cancer than Homer).

A lot of great lines have had 2 skill guys and an "energy guy".

Did I imagine Helm playing keep away from 3 guys deep in the offensive zone on a penalty kill for about 30 seconds on his way to the front of the net for a shot last season? I must have been imagining the national play-by-play guys gushing over Helm almost every time he was on the ice.

I hate the way some of you label a player. You act as if you know first hand what Helm is capable of. The only person who knows what he is capable of and what he is willing to do to achieve it is Helm... get off it already.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Broken 16

[Theophany 110]

i understand that everyone can have his own opinion, but how is it laughable to think helm would fit in well with the first line?!

come on guys, this is no online hockeymanager game where you put the 3 players with highest skill points on the first line and they win every game for you.

this is reality.

we don´t need THE first line with all our star players on it. we need 3 good scoring lines and depending on the night one of them will be the first line, some nights pavels line, some nights hanks line, some nights filppullas line....that is the way to be succesful in todays nhl.

you can´t have only chiefs you need some workers too.

and btw i don´t say we lost the 2 games because of homer, i just say that line could be more effective. we lost the 2 games because of lebda (in big parts). in real life he looks even worse than on tv. please lilja come back...and until than...put in meech it can only get better. but that topic is already discussed elsewhere, sorry.

You have no concept of the game of hockey; I'm terribly sorry.

Helm would not do well on the first line because he doesn't have the skill or the ability to be there. Anyone who knows anything about hockey will tell you that.

Helm is a great skater, and he brings a lot of energy to our forecheck and D when he's out there on the third or fourth lines, but he's not got what it takes to be on the top lines (yet).

It would make FAR more sense to have Cleary, Draper, or Z on the first line. All of them are proven scorers, and if you're looking for an energy guy like Helm, Draper is like an older and more mature version who's got a tiny bit less speed and a developed shot. Same with Cleary. Z speaks for himself.

The truth is though that Homer is of great use on the first line, when you'll usually have Dats and Franzen out there (who can usually take care of cycling by themselves) with Lids and Rafalski; a screen is essential when you have offensive D-men on the point, not only so the keeper can't see as well, but also for rebounds and redirections.

If people that are against Homer could put together a logical argument for why he shouldn't be on the first line other than some anecdotal "he's lazy and he sucksâ„¢", I'd probably listen and might even change my mind; but until then, everything I've seen leads me to believe that he's fine where he is, and the problem is elsewhere.

[Buppy 1,720]

Probably useless to point this out, but prior to his injury last year Homer was having one of the best seasons of his career.

14g, 16a in 40 games before the injury. In the 13 regular season games after he came back he had 7 assists. His 23 assists were the 3rd highest of his career, despite playing the fewest number of games since his rookie season. His +18 rating was a career best. His PPG was 2nd best of his career.

His production did drop after the first round of the playoffs, but Anaheim shut that entire line down. Then came some line-shuffling and Datsyuk's injury. There was more to his lack of production than just deteriorating skills, injury, or fatigue.

He has a goal this season, created at least one scoring chance with his corner work (good puck retrieval and nice pass to Franzen in game 1), creates chaos in front of the opposition net, and hasn't made any real notable mistakes. He is about as good an option as anyone below him for our top 6. Not to mention that both our 3rd and 4th lines are doing pretty well so far, so we shouldn't mess with them. Of course, some other combinations would work, and will at some point be tried, but there's no reason to change anything yet. The line generated plenty of scoring chances.

As for Helm; he is simply not a top 6 forward. He would add nothing to the line. Neither Franzen nor Datsyuk are particularly fast, so Helm's speed would do little but put him up ice with no support and no skills to survive without it. The line would be plagued by offside fouls, lack of flow, and turnovers. Then on the other side of the coin, you take an ideal checking/energy line center off your checking line and replace him with a defensive liability winger with little speed. You degrade both lines by swapping Helm and Homer.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Well, you are one of the few non-HHO'ers around here that can actually comprehend what comes through your retinas. Most of the people on here just stick their hands in the air and yell "Homer" at the top of their lungs no matter how bad he is playing. If you try and point out that the numbers don't match up with their defense of homer, then you get the "invaluables" argument. Then if you try and point out that getting cross checked in the back really isn't that much of a benefit to the team or isn't a benefit at all, you're in for it. At that point, you just don't understand hockey and aren't a true Red Wings fan. Fortunately, I never had an HHO. I liked Tomas Holmstrom back when he was playing well for the Red Wings. But as of right now, he just hurts them. So I have no problem with Babcock canning that guy. But Babcock's HHO cost the Wings a cup and continues to plague the team. We'll see if he can lose his first. That should help a lot of the others on here lose their HHO's.

Babcock alone didn't cost the Red Wings a Stanley Cup, Holmstrom alone didn't cost the Red Wings a Stanley Cup, Babcock and Holmstrom together by themselves didn't cost the Red Wings a Stanley Cup. Plenty else contributed to that.

Just because some do not dislike Holmstrom as much as you do right now doesn't make these people any less of a Wings fan than you. We are all fans regardless. And if you would lower the biased volume on your meter, you will eventually realize that plenty of people on here realize that Holmstrom is not the player he was in the past, but he is still on the rost, can still contriubte at times, and will still play.

[Jake Ryan 1]

Anyone who thinks Holmstrom is a better hockey player than Helm at this stage in their respective careers is just fooling themselves. This should be a unanimous decision for all who watched last year's playoffs.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Anyone who thinks Holmstrom is a better hockey player than Helm at this stage in their respective careers is just fooling themselves. This should be a unanimous decision for all who watched last year's playoffs.

Why should it be unanimous? Just because you don't like him?

Helm is a better skater - yes. Pretty much anybody is a better skater than Holmstrom.

I'm willing to try out whatever necessary for this team to win. If that means Helm on the first line and bumping Holmstrom off like you have awkward dreams about, fine.

Holmstrom at times didn't see first line action in the playoffs last year, Cleary sometimes took that top spot as well.

You're nutty dislikng of Holmstrom though in this thread is in overdrive, again. He's not a cancer or utterly useless, which you seem to selectively want to ignore.

Edited October 5, 2009 by SouthernWingsFan

[Doc Holiday 0]

i understand that everyone can have his own opinion, but how is it laughable to think helm would fit in well with the first line?!

come on guys, this is no online hockeymanager game where you put the 3 players with highest skill points on the first line and they win every game for you.

this is reality.

we don´t need THE first line with all our star players on it. we need 3 good scoring lines and depending on the night one of them will be the first line, some nights pavels line, some nights hanks line, some nights filppullas line....that is the way to be succesful in todays nhl.

you can´t have only chiefs you need some workers too.

and btw i don´t say we lost the 2 games because of homer, i just say that line could be more effective. we lost the 2 games because of lebda (in big parts). in real life he looks even worse than on tv. please lilja come back...and until than...put in meech it can only get better. but that topic is already discussed elsewhere, sorry.

It isn't simply that Helm isn't a star player. It is that Helm does not compliment the system as a top 6 player. Holmstrom has in the past, which is why he plays there. Holmstrom is no longer a first line player, but Helm is in no way a good replacement for him.

[Buppy 1,720]

Anyone who thinks Holmstrom is a better hockey player than Helm at this stage in their respective careers is just fooling themselves. This should be a unanimous decision for all who watched last year's playoffs.

Who is the better player isn't relevent. The fact is that Homer's skill set is more suited to role on a scoring line Helm's, whose skill set is ideally suited to a checking line.

Homer being on the top line did not cost us the Cup. Homer wasn't on the top line (or top 6) when we lost it. He was on the 4th line where you want to put him. In the finals, the Wings were 2-2, scored 10 goals with Homer in the top 6 (Homer had 2 assists). With Homer on the 4th line we were 1-2, scored 7 goals (5 in one game), and Homer had 0 points.