Will McCrimmon be fired after the road trip?

[Wombat 26]

A huge problem still is that we're missing arguably the most important part of our defense in Lilja. Lilja was a guy who was solid for us at a great price. He added a tremendous amount of strength to the 3rd pairing whereas now we've got Lebda in their usually with a rookie which tends to equate to a disaster. I'm not one who typically rags on guys endlessly, but Lebda is blatantly a liability. He's been horrible and he needs to go. It won't happen for awhile, but that guy needs to not be a Red Wing as soon as possible.

Lilja isn't the answer. He played almost every game for the Wings up until last February and the defense/PK were still brutal the whole time. Sure, he'd help over Lebda, but Lilja is not the defensive panacea.

When everyone is actually playing and playing smart, this is still a formidable team at both ends of the ice. It just isn't happening 60 minutes every game.

[stevkrause 1,247]

Lilja isn't the answer. He played almost every game for the Wings up until last February and the defense/PK were still brutal the whole time. Sure, he'd help over Lebda, but Lilja is not the defensive panacea.

When everyone is actually playing and playing smart, this is still a formidable team at both ends of the ice. It just isn't happening 60 minutes every game.

and he was playing with Lebda all season... not Ericsson...

it is the coaching/preparedness, not the players... yes, the players need to step up, but they need better coaching to actually watch the tapes, review it and see where the mistakes are being made, then correct them... there's a lot more that goes into coaching than people realize - even at that level.

[The Secret 304]

Lilja isn't the answer. He played almost every game for the Wings up until last February and the defense/PK were still brutal the whole time. Sure, he'd help over Lebda, but Lilja is not the defensive panacea.

When everyone is actually playing and playing smart, this is still a formidable team at both ends of the ice. It just isn't happening 60 minutes every game.

Sounds like we are doing our best impression of the 08/09 regular season version of the Red Wings. Getting scored on within the first minute of the game doesn't really show alot of desire from anyone on the team does it? Sounds like an over-all attitude check is more important then firing a coach or benching the defensive core.... same problem we had last year that cost us a Cup. 60 Minute effort in game 7 and the Cup was ours!

[stevkrause 1,247]

So how does McCrimmon get Lidstrom, an Co. from making bone-headed passes to the opposition, and coughing-up the puck in our own end?...Not trying to come across as an ass, but these guys know what's expected from them at this level; if McCrimmon is gulity of anything - it's that he's not chewing their asses off for their mistakes, and not setting the tone by sitting them as well.

Right now I'm of the opinion of scrapping the puck possession, and keeping things simple by getting the puck outta our own end via the boards/glass.

you do not scrap a system... that is complete team overhaul and would be the same as blowing the team up...

He gets them to stop making boneheaded moves by any means necessary - you need to know your players and know how to get the best out of each of them, whether it mean chewing one guy out, giving another positive reinforcement, sitting another or doing bag skates with others, make them hate you, make them love you - whatever they each react too... once again there's a lot more that goes into coaching than people realize - even at that level.

[Wombat 26]

Sounds like we are doing our best impression of the 08/09 regular season version of the Red Wings. Getting scored on within the first minute of the game doesn't really show alot of desire from anyone on the team does it? Sounds like an over-all attitude check is more important then firing a coach or benching the defensive core.... same problem we had last year that cost us a Cup. 60 Minute effort in game 7 and the Cup was ours!

I agree that it's attitude and more importantly, accountability. while I don't want players calling each other out in the papers, there's a little too much "I'm OK, you're OK" going on with the team. The guys that aren't playing well (IMO, Osgood, Rafalski, Lebda, Leino) need to admit that they aren't playing well and start playing well! I just am not seeing the players holding themselves accountable, and perhaps that is partly a coaching/management problem for not holding them accountable.

I think Babcock is a great coach, but I think he started the exact same line in the last two games and the same thing happened both times... the other team scored instantly!

[Mors 201]

THIS.

Our team didn't suddenly forget how to play defense or the penalty kill last season. McCrimmon's arrival and subsequent takeover of those elements of our team coincide with the absolute disaster that they've become. I'm still convinced that he's the one responsible for destroying what was one of the best defenses in the league.

It's not Babcock and we know our team has more talent than this - most of the elements of the 2008 Cup win are still there.

McCrimmon NEEDS to go. And I'm rarely one to call for the head of a coach.

Agree completely, not sure how people can stick up for the guy when the defense has completely collapsed under his guidance despite the same core group of highly skilled players. There's obviously an issue with what he's doing.

[stevkrause 1,247]

At this point I say the Wings get a nun from a local parish to come over to the Joe before every practice to whack player knuckles with a ruler

Too bad Scotty isn't with our team anymore; his presence alone in the locker room would get guys straightened out.

EDIT - dunno if I'd call it a complete overhaul if we were to see the players keeping things simple by using the boards/glass in some cases instead of attempting to make a direct pass to our forwards while under pressure - which instead ends up going to the opposition, and leads to a scoring chance...To me it's more of a minor adjustment.

not at all... ask anyone who's ever coached - that'd be a MAJOR overhaul... and would take at LEAST an entire season just to get down, let alone perfect...

if anything, you work with the D better *cough* D coach *cough* to know his checkdowns and outlets better if the initial pass lane is blocked...

Edited October 30, 2009 by stevkrause

[stevkrause 1,247]

Dumping the puck along the boards/glass when pressured by the opposing forwards takes an entire season to learn??!!

I never played hockey at a high level (only adult leagues), but even I can grasp this rather simple idea of avoiding costly turnovers.

Once again I agree McCrimmon isn't anything special, but the players have gotta pull their heads outta the sand.

I think we have a mis-understanding, I am still replying based on your initial post about scrapping the puck possession style - this would indeed take a minimum of a whole season.

Dumping the puck up the boards/glass is just another checkdown of an outlet pass, but does not change the style of set-up or play and can very much so be used in a puck possession style... as a checkdown when other lanes are closed... the point is, the need to rely on their checkdowns more and stop trying to force passes into closed lanes, but that is not a system overhaul, but merely working better within your system - ie. coaching.

[egroen 384]

The Wings had a lot of success in the playoffs against a relentless forecheck by bringing a forward down low for quick, short outlet passes -- they are not doing that now and getting slaughtered.

[zettie85 106]

Bad defence does tend to follow McCrimmon around. The season after being replaced in Calgary the Flames shot to 3rd in GA and to the Finals. He should be canned he hasn't had a very good track record.

Who could we hire???

Or promote???

Edited October 30, 2009 by zettie85

[stevkrause 1,247]

Bad defence does tend to follow McCrimmon around. The season after being replaced in Calgary the Flames shot to 3rd in GA and to the Finals. He should be canned he hasn't had a very good track record.

Who could we hire???

Or promote???

I feel like a broken record - move MacLean back to working with the D (like he was in 08) and hire Gallant as the offensive coach...

[thedatsyukian 7]

During McCrimmon's tenure I have yet to find a positive element that he's brought to this team meanwhile I sure as hell can point to multiple negative elements which seems to be a common trend in McCrimmon's history.

The saying goes if aint broke don't fix it. It's broke and it sure needs to be fixed.

Edited October 30, 2009 by thedatsyukian

[zettie85 106]

I feel like a broken record - move MacLean back to working with the D (like he was in 08) and hire Gallant as the offensive coach...

Well sorry to inconvenience you but thanks.

[Electrophile 3,554]

Once again I don't get how McCrimmon should be fired when it's the players whom are screwing up left, and right...Wings are nortorious in our own end due to numerous gaffes committed by the Dmen, and not on McCrimmon...Then again - it's always easier to fire 1 assistant coach instead of trading away a few players.

This is my thinking as well. I can understand the impetus to shake things up but how is firing him going to fix our problems? You see this all the time in baseball - the team has a poor season or something and they fire the manager, as if he was responsible for what the players on the field are NOT doing.

These are grown adult men who've been playing this sport for a long time. When they step out on the ice, they should already know what to do and how to do it and if they aren't doing it, that's on THEM, not McCrimmon. Firing him is like putting duct tape over a hole in a leaking boat. It'll buy you a minimal amount of time, but you aren't getting back to shore bone dry.

[stevkrause 1,247]

Well sorry to inconvenience you but thanks.

sorry, didn't mean for it to come across this way - I just very strongly feel like we should do this.

[zettie85 106]

sorry, didn't mean for it to come across this way - I just very strongly feel like we should do this.

You are right though. It's a good idea.

[stevkrause 1,247]

You are right though. It's a good idea.

and this way, none of our coaches once played with any of our current players (McCrimmon was Lids first D partner in the league)... I still think it's hard to be unbiased and ride a guy the same if he was ever a teammate as opposed to JUST being a coach, especially when said guy is arguable the best defenseman to ever play the game, the captain of the team and just so damn likable as Lidstrom...

Scotty/Barry Smith unmercifully rode Yzerman at times, and no one could ever argue his work ethic or talent... it just sets a precedent and forces other players to step up, ala "well, if Lids is getting rode, obviously I'm not exempt from being rode"

Edited October 30, 2009 by stevkrause

[dropkickshanahans 463]

I was fully aware of McCrimmon's record in his previous positions - however how much of that is his coaching, and how much of that is the gaffes by the Dmen?

I find it hard to believe that our D all of a sudden doesn't know what to do in their own end unless they're told what to do by a coach; me thinks it's sloppiness/laziness on the players more so than coach McCrimmon's tactics, but that's just my humble opinion.

Well that's not what I was trying to say because that part I agree with you. While the scheming may be different before and after McCrimmon's hire, the players are still the one's turning it over, like Rafalski, Ericsson, Lebda, etc. But others still have a good argument that it's the scheme's fault, since strong forechecking teams are bound to consistently or eventually create turnovers for the other team, especially when all they do is pass it along the boards, they'll be the most predictable.

So that's what I'm trying to get at, perhaps we're too predictable, teams know it, and our players just aren't being careful enough in clearing the zone.

[Eizzo03 0]

I was fully aware of McCrimmon's record in his previous positions - however how much of that is his coaching, and how much of that is the gaffes by the Dmen?

I find it hard to believe that our D all of a sudden doesn't know what to do in their own end unless they're told what to do by a coach; me thinks it's sloppiness/laziness on the players more so than coach McCrimmon's tactics, but that's just my humble opinion.

Even if the problem is errors that the Dmen are committing, it's the coach's job to remedy that and I would say that there has been more than adequate time for issues like the turnovers and the bad passes in the defensive zone to be addressed. We haven't seen improvement in this area over the last season, last year's playoffs and so far this season; in fact, I would say that it's been getting worse. Maybe there is some kind of communication issue between the Dmen and McCrimmon or some other explanation but regardless, the coach's job to work with the team and fix issues. Defense is the major issue and has been for over a season now. If the defense coach can't fix, adjust, work on that issue, then it's the coach that needs to change, not all of the players. That's not to say that there aren't things that individual players don't need to work on but if after this long nothing has changed with the D as a whole, maybe they just need a new face to say something in a new way. I wouldn't underestimate the influence of someone new.

It can't get worse, right? RIGHT?

[Casey 145]

THIS.

Our team didn't suddenly forget how to play defense or the penalty kill last season. McCrimmon's arrival and subsequent takeover of those elements of our team coincide with the absolute disaster that they've become. I'm still convinced that he's the one responsible for destroying what was one of the best defenses in the league.

It's not Babcock and we know our team has more talent than this - most of the elements of the 2008 Cup win are still there.

McCrimmon NEEDS to go. And I'm rarely one to call for the head of a coach.

For once, I agree.

Look at the '08 roster, defense- regulars:

Lilja

Lidstrom

Rafalski

Stuart

Kronwall

Lebda

'08 limited time:

Quincey

Meech

Chelios

Stafford

Ericsson

'09 didn't change much. Promote Ericsson and Meech, drop Quincey and Stafford.

All of the starters from the '08 and '09 Cup runs are there. No changes. Yet, somehow, there's a major difference between the '08 defense and the '09, as well as the '10. It's just like working on a car- what has changed since you noted a problem?

McCrimmon. Nothing else on the defensive side.

Edited October 30, 2009 by Casey

[sixer 37]

I hope so!!!

[The Secret 304]

This is my thinking as well. I can understand the impetus to shake things up but how is firing him going to fix our problems? You see this all the time in baseball - the team has a poor season or something and they fire the manager, as if he was responsible for what the players on the field are NOT doing.

These are grown adult men who've been playing this sport for a long time. When they step out on the ice, they should already know what to do and how to do it and if they aren't doing it, that's on THEM, not McCrimmon. Firing him is like putting duct tape over a hole in a leaking boat. It'll buy you a minimal amount of time, but you aren't getting back to shore bone dry.

Just think about Red Wings with Scotty Bowman then almost the exact same Red Wings with Dave Lewis then Most of the same Red Wings with Babcock. They are not motivated, they are not prepared... that could very well be the product of a bad coach. Its can't be entirely his fault but it could be where it stems from.

[Carman 387]

I've been calling for McCrimmon's head since he got hired. He's never been a successful defensive coach. He couldn't do well with Atlanta, and he certainly isn't doing well here.

[LeftWinger 5,153]

PLEASE!!!! i Hope so! Nothing personal Brad, just business.... You're FIRED!!! (where's Donald Trump when you need him?)

[Drake_Marcus 890]

You're right and wrong. Prior to McCrimmon's hiring, someone posted stats of our defensive efficiency and PK prior and compared it to McCrimmmon's the past two seasons, which we're significantly horrible. They then proceeded to show his career with Atlanta and Calgary, and they were just as bad. Also looking back prior, our overall +/- was higher and closer grouped in the league-wide stats. I believe Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Lidstrom we're in the top 5 with around 40+, Rafalski top 10, Kronwall, Cleary and Samulesson rounded out the top 20. Anyways, even last year people have been questioning McCrimmon since that side of the production has dropped, but it didn't matter because of the squad we had.

But even so, our giveaways are probably a league worse right now. Rafalski has been bad at handling the puck, Ericsson is making rookie mistakes, Lebda is Lebda, etc., and it all comes down to the players controlling the puck smarter on the ice, whether that'd be clearing the zone better, getting it deep more often or what have you. They just gotta be better.

Here's the post you're referring too. I stumbled on it just now and thought I'd cross-post it.

Original post by KrazyGangsta

- Our PK Rank -

2000 - 2001 - Ranked 6

2001 - 2002 - Ranked

2002 - 2003 - Ranked 7

2003 - 2004 - Ranked 1

LOCK OUT - LOCK OUT

Lilja arrives to Detroit

2005 - 2006 - Ranked 3

2006 - 2007 - Ranked 6

2007 - 2008 - Ranked 8 (For the past 7 years I didn't even check before 2002 ... we've been ranked top 10 pk)

(--------------------------------)

2008 - 2009 - Ranked 25

Lilja is injured

2009-2010 - Ranked 22

Lilja played a good role in the PK blocking shots and we're missing that right now but keep reading.

(--------------------------------) is the following:

QUOTE

Assistant Coach Brad McCrimmon enters his second season as a member of the Red Wingsâ�‚��„� coaching staff. He has more than 27 years of NHL experience as a player and coach, including three seasons on the blueline with Detroit from 1990-1993.

Prior to joining the Red Wings in 2008, McCrimmon spent four seasons as an assistant coach with the Atlanta Thrashers. He has also served as an assistant coach for the Calgary Flames (2000-2003), NY Islanders (1997-98), and with Germanyâ�‚��„�s Frankfurt Lions in 2004-05.

Atlanta Trashers Team Standing

2003 - 2004 ---> 10th place east ... PK ranked 8

2005 - 2006 ---> 10th place east ... PK ranked 25

2006 - 2007 ---> 3rd place east ... PK ranked 26

2007 - 2008 ---> 1th place east ... PK ranked 27

Calgary Team Standings

2000 - 2001 ---> 11th place west ... PK ranked 28

2001 - 2002 ---> 11th place west ... PK ranked 27

2002 - 2003 ---> 6th place west ... PK ranked 13

NY Islanders Standing

1997-1998 ---> 10th place east ... PK ranked 10

My conclusion is fire McCrimmon. Out of 10 years his teams PK has only been in the top 10 only twice. Our PK killed us last year, it's killing us this year also. Since the day McCrimmon has joined the coaching staff this team hasn't ever looked itself.

7 out of 10 of his seasons his PK is ranked in the 20's. Also if you guys take a look even in Atlanta the first year the PK was ranked 8 and dropped in the 20's similar to the red wings scenario which we could see in the stats I've pulled up.

What you guys think?