maltbymaniac 13 Report post Posted November 20, 2009 Huh? Let's look at two lines: Williams-Zetterberg-Cleary Leino-Zetterberg-Cleary Which line had ok chemistry, with Zetterberg playing below expectations? Which line has awesome chemistry with Zetterberg playing like a beast? Is Leino the reason why Z is on fire? No. Is the the chemistry between Leino and Zetterberg a contributing factor in Z's ht streak? Yeah, of course. That line has played waaayyyy better with Leino on it than it did with Williams. Why? Because Williams was shooting first then looking for a chance to shoot again. Leino's been retrieving pucks, battling on the boards and passing back to Zetterberg when the time is right. That's exactly how you need a player on Z's wing to be-- a puck retriever who can shoot if asked to but has the hockey sense to make the right passes. Williams did not fulfill that role. I'm not sure if you've watched any recent games, but Leino's played very well along side Zetterberg. He's getting back on track and starting to look like the kid that scored 5 g and 4 a in his first 13 NHL games. Let's look at Leino, Cleary and Z's stats since that line was assembled: Leino: 1 g 1 a 2 pts +5 Cleary: 2 g 3a 5 pts +8 Zetterberg: 5 g 5 a 10 pts +6 (Those numbers are over 4 games) Now Leino hasn't torn it up, but a goal and an assist in 4 games is good for a rookie who's just getting used to the NHL. You certainly can't complain about those numbers given that he's played about 30 NHL games in his entire life. So far Leino hasn't really consistently met expectations, with 3 goals and 2 assists in 18 games. That puts him on pace for a 13 g 9 a 22 pt rookie season. Hudler's rookie season was 15 g 10 a 25 pts, so that puts Leino roughly on Hudler's rookie pace. Note that Hudler went from 25 pts to 57 pts in his first 3 season in the NHL, so there's a huge leap between rookie production and that of an established NHL'er. You can't expect a kid to walk in and produce right away as a rookie. It's also worth noting that most rookie seasons tend to ramp up as the player becomes accustomed to the game and starts to play "their game". holy smokes did u break it down or what.u must be a writer or somthing. i just thought he was suppose to be better then what ive seen. but thanks for pointing everything out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204 Report post Posted November 20, 2009 Easy. Tell Bertuzzi, when you enter the zone take a quick look for Datsyuk, if he's open, hit him. If not, drive/shoot the puck. Tell Holmstrom to drive the net hard, and tell Datsyuk to be the high man and wait for a pass should it come. Homer scores alot, which is weird, because he really isnt doing much else. Apart from the Dallas game, I've loved Berts game lately, he's finally hitting and trying to make things happen. Datsyuk is Datsyuk. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Echolalia 2,961 Report post Posted November 21, 2009 It's funny because I think the exact opposite. I see Bert too often skating into the zone, pulling off to the boards and looking to set someone up instead of shooting. Like he's trying to be the play-making center Datsyuk is. I'm not denying his occasional forays to the crease, I just would rather see him drive the net more and look to pass less. Interesting. I'll definitely take a closer look at him tonight. Maybe I'm only seeing the selfish aspect of his play. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Drake_Marcus 890 Report post Posted November 21, 2009 Uh oh... i see another Jake Ryan thread coming if that line doesn't score tonight.. but really, Datsyuk is trying hard he just doesn't have any chemistry with Bert (who can't find the back of the net to save his life). Maybe they should try putting Abby up there. He is a goal scorer and with Datsyuk passing it to him he can't do much worse than Bert... Now to contradict myself, i still think Bert best option for that line, skill wise. p.s. On a good note, only 3ish more months until Franzen is back!!! Homer scared Jake off with his 9 goal start to the season. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest lilja4mvp Report post Posted November 21, 2009 bertuzzi is trash. need to get someone on that line that can at least get a one-timer off reliably. even if they fire it into the logo very time, it would still generate more offense than bertuzzi. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Drake_Marcus 890 Report post Posted November 21, 2009 That wouldn't work... Helm is a checker and speed guy, not a hands and scoring guy.. If it were to be anybody, it would be Abby. But as of now, Bert is till the best option This. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Drake_Marcus 890 Report post Posted November 21, 2009 holy smokes did u break it down or what.u must be a writer or somthing. i just thought he was suppose to be better then what ive seen. but thanks for pointing everything out. no problem Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icesurfer 75 Report post Posted November 21, 2009 Bertuzzi is done. The top line spent very little time cycling the puck or keeping it in the offensive end like the DHE Express Line or Z's line does. At this point I would rather see Maltby on the first line rather than Bertuzzi......LOL. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carman 387 Report post Posted November 21, 2009 Bertuzzi is done. The top line spent very little time cycling the puck or keeping it in the offensive end like the DHE Express Line or Z's line does. At this point I would rather see Maltby on the first line rather than Bertuzzi......LOL. Bertuzzi is playing great. Hitting, backchecking, forechecking. He is just awful with the puck. Holmstrom was far far far worse tonight. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Drake_Marcus 890 Report post Posted November 21, 2009 Bertuzzi is playing great. Hitting, backchecking, forechecking. He is just awful with the puck. Holmstrom was far far far worse tonight. Agreed. Just because he's not useful on the 1st right now doesn't mean Bertuzzi is useless. We just need to see someone paired up with Datsyuk who's capable of scoring at the moment. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mors 201 Report post Posted November 21, 2009 Bertuzzi is playing great. Hitting, backchecking, forechecking. He is just awful with the puck. Holmstrom was far far far worse tonight. This. Are the rest of you guys just looking to scapegoat Bertuzzi or aren't you actually watching the games? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest lilja4mvp Report post Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) am i in the twilight zone here? what in the hell does it matter if bertuzzi is forechecking and backchecking? any 500k piece of garbage could do that - and probably even better. He is just awful with the puck. "He is just awful with the puck." "He is just awful with the puck." think i found the problem guys! Edited November 21, 2009 by lilja4mvp Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carman 387 Report post Posted November 21, 2009 am i in the twilight zone here? what in the hell does it matter if bertuzzi is forechecking and backchecking? any 500k piece of garbage could do that - and probably even better. "He is just awful with the puck." "He is just awful with the puck." think i found the problem guys! Are you kidding me? Most of the game is played without the puck. The problem is your logic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest lilja4mvp Report post Posted November 21, 2009 Are you kidding me? Most of the game is played without the puck. The problem is your logic. man, can't argue with that. hustle without the puck is definitely the key to putting up points on the first line. who cares if you fan on every pass coming your way Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carman 387 Report post Posted November 21, 2009 man, can't argue with that. hustle without the puck is definitely the key to putting up points on the first line. who cares if you fan on every pass coming your way Not his fault he is put in a situation he shouldn't be in. I'm not arguing he probably shouldn't be on the first line. But he is certainly not even close to being one of our worst players. And you mention cycling on the first line. Holmstrom is the one ruining offensive zone pressure right now(obviously he is just playing the same way he usually does). Bertuzzi is at least creating and getting chances. The optimal first line set-up is not going to work with Bertuzzi and Holmstrom on the first line. One of them need to go down. Bertuzzi would probably be the better option, but Datsyuk has been snake bit all season and the one constant factor is he is always playing with Holmstrom... Just my observation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Drake_Marcus 890 Report post Posted November 21, 2009 This. Are the rest of you guys just looking to scapegoat Bertuzzi or aren't you actually watching the games? Who's been consistently mediocre for longer? Bertuzzi or Holmstrom. I'll cut Bertuzzi some slack when he's coming off a hot streak. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carman 387 Report post Posted November 21, 2009 Who's been consistently mediocre for longer? Bertuzzi or Holmstrom. I'll cut Bertuzzi some slack when he's coming off a hot streak. Datsyuk has been on a cold streak since before the playoffs last year. He has been stuck with Holmstrom for practically the whole length of his struggles. Until Datsyuk starts producing I'm blaming Holmstrom for everything that goes wrong. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Drake_Marcus 890 Report post Posted November 21, 2009 Datsyuk has been on a cold streak since before the playoffs last year. He has been stuck with Holmstrom for practically the whole length of his struggles. Until Datsyuk starts producing I'm blaming Holmstrom for everything that goes wrong. I suppose it's better to blame Holmer than Dats, but I'd like to point out that Datsyuk was on a hot streak for about 6 games this season. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icesurfer 75 Report post Posted November 21, 2009 Bertuzzi is playing great. Hitting, backchecking, forechecking. He is just awful with the puck. Holmstrom was far far far worse tonight. That description is great for a FOURTH line player..... which is where Bertuzzi belongs. RIGHT NOW the Wings need scorers on the first line!!!! Not someone who takes ONE weak shot at the net from 50 feet away with 17 minutes of playing time. Bertuzzi is getting knocked off the puck and is turning it over... he can't even get it into the zone cleanly. Wings have enough backcheckers and forecheckers.... with Datsyuk being the best one on the first line..... we NEED someone who will take the puck to the net and shoot, shoot, shoot. I mean Babcock is saying that every single day...... shoot the dam puck. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carman 387 Report post Posted November 21, 2009 Who do you suggest? Can't reasonably break up the 2nd and 3rd lines. Also you say we need shots? Bertuzzi just so happens to be 2nd on the team in shots behind Zetterberg. Out of Abby-Maltby-May-Miller-Meech-Bertuzzi who would be the best option? The only one I can see is Abby, but Babock rather have the experience. And the coach that just so happens to have a Stanley Cup and coaching Team Canada agrees. Bertuzzi is the best option at the moment. Stop looking for something to blame, and enjoy that this team is the most respected and successful NHL team in the past 20 years. Honestly Bertuzzi is not the reason we are losing, if the main reason we are losing games is by him missing scoring chances then we are in a lot worse shape than you are even suggesting. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icesurfer 75 Report post Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) Who do you suggest? Can't reasonably break up the 2nd and 3rd lines. Also you say we need shots? Bertuzzi just so happens to be 2nd on the team in shots behind Zetterberg. Out of Abby-Maltby-May-Miller-Meech-Bertuzzi who would be the best option? The only one I can see is Abby, but Babock rather have the experience. And the coach that just so happens to have a Stanley Cup and coaching Team Canada agrees. Bertuzzi is the best option at the moment. Stop looking for something to blame, and enjoy that this team is the most respected and successful NHL team in the past 20 years. Honestly Bertuzzi is not the reason we are losing, if the main reason we are losing games is by him missing scoring chances then we are in a lot worse shape than you are even suggesting. No one said Bertuzzi is THE reason why the Wings are losing. This thread is about the FIRST LINE not producing like Babcock expects them to produce. (Take out the power play points and power play shots and you will see). Basically the second line and third line are skating better overall than the so-called "first line". Forget for one minute that they are the first line...... if you would put Datsyuk with Abdelkader and Maltby I will bet anything that you would see more time spent in the offensive end of the ice with more cycling, more races for the puck, digging the puck out of the corner and holding on to the puck. WHY??? Very simple...... Abby & Maltby skate better than Homer and Bertuzzi. Call them whatever line number you want.....first, second, third.... it doesn't matter....... it would be a better skating line. I know Bowman wouldn't be afraid to mix it up and make changes instead of "trying" to make Bertuzzi a player he "use to be"..... Waste of time. Does anyone remember what line Bowman put Homer on????....... It was the fourth line...... even though he was in his office on the PP. Edited November 21, 2009 by Icesurfer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carman 387 Report post Posted November 21, 2009 In your original post you went no where near including Holmstrom in the struggles of the first line. The first line is struggling because of skating, I think we both agree. But there is no way you can have Maltby/Abby/Miller/May play the first line minutes that Babcock has Bertuzzi and Homer playing. Not to mention both have infinitely more experience than all the other options. You also call Bertuzzi a wasted signing. Which is a complete joke if you want to be taken seriously. 9 points in 20 games. 2nd in shots, 3rd forward in hits. That's damn good production for that salary. Pretty much I'm refering to calling Bertuzzi a wasted signing. I agree that the line probably should try Abby on the wing throughout the game to see what happens. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icesurfer 75 Report post Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) That's why I said you could call them any line number you want...... As far as I am concerned Z's line is the top line and Helm's line is the second line. Datsyuk gets a LOT of playing time on the PK and PP...... so I am talking about the five on five playing time. Stats are useless because of the power play points and power play shots that are included.... Bertuzzi plays on the PP and has "benefitted" in the point category because of that. When you consider 5 on 5 play ONLY the first line just absolutely stinks. What is wrong with putting Datsyuk with Abby and Maltby 5 on 5????? Does it hurt to try it????? I would take a hard skating player like Helm over Bertuzzi anyday! Why were the Wings able to sign Bertuzzi so easily for a "paltry" $1.5 mil??? Because there certainly weren't very many teams after him..... not any of the smart ones anyway....LOL. Bertuzzi also saw it as an opportunity to resurrect his declining career..... which will go downhill even faster after this year....LOL> Before the singing of Bertuzzi many many fans on this forum were wanting the Wings to get Travis Moen or Manny Malhotra...... could have had either for $1.5 mil and either would have jumped at the chance to come to Detroit...... BOTH are doing well with their respective teams..... and who do the Wings get?????....... an OLD HAS-BEEN!!!! Edited November 21, 2009 by Icesurfer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carman 387 Report post Posted November 21, 2009 Thing is Bertuzzi is one of the best forechecking/backcheck, hitting, shot taking forwards on the team. And you are saying stats are useless? The first line certainly doesn't "stink", they are versing the others teams top players on most shifts. I don't even know how to logically point out the flaws in your argument. You want to put Datsyuk with 4th liners? You want to break up the Helm line? Pretty much you want to dismantle whatever is actually working on this team? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
titanium2 867 Report post Posted November 21, 2009 So... Datsyuk-Zetterberg-Cleary Franzen-Filppula-Leino Draper-Helm-Eaves Bertuzzi-Abdelkader-Holmstrom ??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
