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Icesurfer

What is the problem with Detroit's Penalty Kill?

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Wings Penalty Kill used to be in the top 10 of the league for the longest time. The last few years it has gone downhill. Now the PK is the WORST in the league on the road and 28th in the league overall. On the road the Wings are not only the worst team, they are almost 6% worse than the next worst team, Anaheim, at only 65.7%. That is embarrassing to say the least.

Which coach is responsible for the PK? McCrimmon? It has gone down significantly since McClellan left for San Jose.

The million dollar question is why?

The best penalty killer is said to be the goalie.

So is it Osgood's and Howard's fault?

Is it because Lidstrom is aging and his reflexes are slower?

Is it because of the coach and his teaching style?

Is it because our once premier penalty killers Draper and Maltby are not as effective?

Is it because Datsyuk and Zetterberg who also get a lot of PP time and 5 on 5 time are over-played?

Is it because Wings aren't aggressive enough?

Is it due to a lack of confidence?

Is it poor defence from the rest of the defencemen?

Is it the lack of enough shot blockers?

Is it because they are not getting sticks in the lane?

Is it because they are having trouble clearing the puck, lacking the patience to get a good shot out?

Is it because they do too much stick handling and not playing the body, especially in front of the net?

I don't understand. What's the problem?

I am looking for individual player PK stats but can't find any anywhere. Anyone have a link?

Maybe someone should turn this into a poll.

Edited by Icesurfer

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Here's a list that I've made before

They can't win defensive faceoffs

They can't prevent entry into the zone

They can't clear pucks

They can't block shooting lanes

They can't cover the point

They can't clear the front of the crease

They can't make saves

They use too many forwards to kill penalties

I hope that paints a pretty good picture for why we suck on the PK.

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Not clearing the crease. Lidstrom is just about the only one that I see regularly locking people up in front of the net. Stuart, Kronwall, Ericsson all just stand around.

I blame this partly on Lidstrom and whoever is coaching the defense. Lidstrom doesn't hit people because his stick is so good; Stuart, Kronwall, and Ericsson are all learning from Lidstrom, and they don't see him knocking people down when they're fighting for the puck.

If your name isn't Nick Lidstrom, you need to be hitting people fighting for the puck in front of the net, mainly because your stick isn't as good as his, thus you're not tying people up.

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I vote McCrimmon and the defense not cleaning the plate in front.

Not clearing the crease. Lidstrom is just about the only one that I see regularly locking people up in front of the net. Stuart, Kronwall, Ericsson all just stand around.

I blame this partly on Lidstrom and whoever is coaching the defense. Lidstrom doesn't hit people because his stick is so good; Stuart, Kronwall, and Ericsson are all learning from Lidstrom, and they don't see him knocking people down when they're fighting for the puck.

If your name isn't Nick Lidstrom, you need to be hitting people fighting for the puck in front of the net, mainly because your stick isn't as good as his, thus you're not tying people up.

OK, he said the second part of my post better than I did. I meant what he said, after I blamed McCrimmon.

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Guest zackmorris

1) We're not aggressive. We play this little diamond where we passively let the blue liners give it to whoever they want. We've done this for awhile now over the past couple years and it's clearly not working, so let's be more aggressive. Yes, it'll take hard, exhausting skating and hard work but let's dare teams to tic tac toe on us. Why not? Our "let them shoot and hope we can get to the rebound" style is not working right now. Our most successful penalty kills come when we attack whoever has the puck while trying to get in their passing lanes. Penalty kills in hockey are alot like pressuring the QB in football-pressure leads to the passer ******* the play up. I dare the other team to try and make crisp pretty little passes around guys like Lidstrom and Stuart when our forwards are pressuring them. Go watch film from our old 02 cup run, or even some of our more recent games from a few years ago. We attacked whoever had the puck, took them to the boards, f***ed up their day and spit on them when they were down. Whoever got that puck had a red jersey coming at them or in their face already. They couldn't set up.

2) Ridiculous penalty killers. I won't name names because fans of certain players will flame me to death but some guys out there, should not be on the PK. They're directly responsible for problem #1. Guys who aren't especially fast, or good defensively, or energized. I think Mike Babcock is a bloody genius and the best coach in hockey and possibly all of sports. But his decision to put some players out there that he does, might be the wrong move. If we were taught and forced to play more aggressively like in #1 they might do ok, maybe, and I understand we're going through an impossible time with injuries but he's been putting suspect characters out there before.

3) Ozzie. I know, around here Ozzie can do no wrong and you're not allowed to badmouth him or you'll be hazed for life but I won't lie about it. I like him and applaud him when he plays well. He's the goalie on my favorite team, I love when he's on his game and wish he always could be. But there are times when he just lets in stinkers. That OT game the other night-WTF?! C'mon Oz, you've gotta stop s*** like that. That wasn't a PK but still, you get what I'm saying. Huge saves at other moments don't excuse the little whiffers he's letting in that kill our momentum and deflate us as a whole.

4) Too many cute passes. I love Brad Stuart on the PK most of the time because he doesn't do that s***. Rafalski, who I'll defend against the senseless abuse he takes on this board, is one of the biggest culprits in this regard. He'll kick little passes to himself, try backhandling pucks 12 inches in front of him to another player when he could just clear the zone, s*** like that. All it does it stay in the zone, give the other team a chance and lead to a goal. Raf's just an example, alot of guys are doing this. Nick, Stuart and at times Ericsson are the only guys just swatting the puck out any way they can.

5) Block shots. I dunno why but we're horrible at this. Lilja was the king of this and right now, we're playing too soft and giving the defensemen at the point too much room to pass and shoot.

6) In front of the net, we're not battling for pucks. We're relying on our sticks, when other players have realized this and just send enough bodies that we can't stick the puck away from all of them.

7) Stop letting the other team enter the ******* zone SO DAMN EASILY. We just let them coast, afraid they'll get behind us if we're too aggressive at the line. You know what? Give it a shot. Let them try. Teams do it to us and we don't capitalize, and we're a hell of alot more talented than any team attempting to stop us. We're still the most purely skilled team in this league in spite of how depressing and mopey some people here are.

I could go on but I think that's the base of it. Our defense coach, isn't teaching these guys to play hard. That's all.

Edited by zackmorris

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When's the last time they were good? 07-08

What's different since then? Aside from the defensive coach not much other than the fact that Draper and Maltby are no longer very effective on the PK. Lilja's also missing. In up until after the 07-08 season, Chelios was an important member of the PK. The farther you look back the more important Chelios was.

So we're looking at:

1) McCrimmon blows chunks. His career is littered with defensively deficient teams. McCrimmon is responsible for the structure of the PK and that area is terrible.

2) Our forward PK'ers are different. Maltby and Draper are no longer the mainstays of the PK. They were the common theme amongst all the the successful Wings PK groups in recent history.

3) We only have one dedicated PK d-man. Ericsson doesn't count because he's got almost zero experience being a PKer at this level. Lilja used to be very effective alongside Lidstrom on the PK. Chelios used to be an important PKer too.

Overall the only thing you can change is McCrimmon. From his first game onwards the team defense and PK has been far below Red Wings standards. Those things are his job. He's failing to do his job. At some point you have to hold the man accountable. Whether you believe he's 100% or 1% at fault, the responsibility falls on his shoulders because it's his job in the end.

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Guest zackmorris

^McCrimmon does need to go. I know to us, our team doesn't act with the haste we'd wish them to but sometimes, we're the ones who are too hasty. But in truly critical moments, our brass makes the right call. Although not blindly, I am confident we'll make the right call on this one as well.

I don't expect to see him canned at any point during this season, but in the offseason, expect someone new to replace him. Our front office won't find this acceptable in any sense for this long. We have too high a standard to settle for this bulls***.

Remember how soft, lazy and careless we got under Dave Lewis?

It's happening to our PK with McCrimmon.

We said so long to Dave and he had a much higher standing with us than McCrimmon does.

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They use too many forwards to kill penalties.

I can buy that. Who are the dedicated shutdown forwards on this team? Helm and Miller? Those two kids are a big step down from Draper and Maltby in their primes.

Here are the PK time break downs for the last 4 seasons:

Forwards 2006-2007

Forwards 2007-2008

Forwards 2008-2009

Forwards 2009-2010

Defensemen 2006-2007

Defensemen 2007-2008

Defensemen 2008-2009

Defensemen 2009-2010

What are the main themes here? Maltby and Draper fade away to almost no mins. Chelios goes from the #1 PK d-man in mins to non-existent.

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Helm and Miller? Don't we have a few other forwards known for defense? Like Selke-known for defense?

Well first of all, I said "dedicated" shut down forwards. :P Datsyuk and Zetterberg are definitely mainstays of the PK, but neither is the #1 or #2 most used guy. In fact, Datsyuk isn't even in the top 4!

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Well first of all, I said "dedicated" shut down forwards. :P Datsyuk and Zetterberg are definitely mainstays of the PK, but neither is the #1 or #2 most used guy. In fact, Datsyuk isn't even in the top 4!

OK, mister link to stats, what the relevance of 3rd or 4th line forward to the success of a PK?

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OK, mister link to stats, what the relevance of 3rd or 4th line forward to the success of a PK?

The two most important PK forwards are the guys who are out there the most. Back when the PK was good the #1 guy in terms of PK ice-time was Draper. Now Draper's way down near the bottom. Draper's also got a Selke to his name, so we shouldn't underestimate his defensive contribution. The PK forwards are critical to the success of the unit because they move around to cover the extra man the most, right? They're responsible for pressuring the points and jamming up the high passing lanes when they can. The two d-men are pretty much anchored to the net and the opposition forwards that stay down low. Our forward pkers are also critical because they take the face-off. The face-off is basically the difference between 15 seconds off the clock and a chance to change your men and having to deal with extended offensive pressure. Back when Draper was on the PK he was winning the majority of the face-offs... which was a huge key to the unit's success.

Another important point to remember is that a guy who knows his #1 job is to be the PK go-to guy is revved up to get out there and kill that penalty early on. As a bottom 6 player he's also got more time and energy to dedicate to the PK in any one game. He's also less likely to be on the ice when the penalty occurs, meaning he's almost always the first guy out on the PK and sets the tone for the kill.

Right now it's clear that we don't have that kind of dedicate shut-down centre that wins almost all his draws. Zetterberg plays a big part there, though, and it shows-- he's usually not out on the ice when a goal goes in. Who is? Lately it's been Helm/Eaves. For example, they were out for PP goals against last game. Similarly, the Stuart-Ericsson pairing was out for both goals last game. Lidstrom's been extremely effective on the PK this year. I'd rather they dropped Lidstrom's PP time back a bit to add to his PK time just so they can stop the bleeding. The one sure thing in any one game is that Lidstrom will be dominant defensively.

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Guest Lidstromboli

i think lidstrom and cleary are probably the wings' best pkers at the moment

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Excellent posts.... I think everything above pretty much covers it.

Now can someone please print in out and send to Babcock and McCrimmon..... cause I don't think either one uses email...LOL...

and something needs to be done because I don't know if any team who was last in the league in the PK ever made the playoffs. Perhaps someone can look that up. Of course, I don't expect the Wings to finish last in the PK and hopefully by season's end they will have the PK straightened out.

I know we have about 3/4's of the season to go but losing these early points are not easy to make up the last month of the season because of the 3-point games.

Edited by Icesurfer

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PK1: Zetterberg and Datsyuk (sub in Cleary)

Lidstrom/Stuart

PK2: Filppula and Helm (sub in Eaves)

Ericsson/Kronwall

We're not aggressive enough, not enough intensity, too many guys just standing around. It's painful to watch.

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our problem is we dont clear the front of the net. we have the softest D in the league when it comes to clearing the garbage goal oppurtunities. lilja i feel is missed terribley for this. lidstrom, the best defensemen to ever wear the winged wheel has never been a good defensemen in front. he isn't physical, along with the rest of them besides stuart, and little bit of kronwall. osgood can't stop the 5th rebound, nor can any other human.

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Did you just wake up? :P

LOL!

Well, hes in Australia so give him a break. I don't imagine he gets games down there, on TV anyhow.

I think the problem with the PK is McCrimmon. FIRE HIM ALREADY!

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