Bertuzzi SUCKS

[Carman 387]

I never said that, and you know it. You paraded out how he's second in shoots, I pointed out his % is horrid.

If you are making the defense that injuries have forced him to take a larger role that no one intended, I can accept that. But I'm still allowed to complain about a second line forward who gets plenty of PP time who is shooting less than 5% and turns the puck over like it *may* cause cancer.

He's not the cause of the Wing's ills, but he's sure a prominent symptom.

That wasn't in reference directly to you, I guess I should of said produce like Hossa instead of shooting % like Hossa. Sorry

And the bolded is exactly what I'm trying to get across. I don't expect him to be anything more then a 3rd line winger when our team is fully healthy. Those were my expectations, and that's why I'm not outraged by his lack of production.

And he isn't even close to being that bad on giveaways he has the same amount as Datsyuk. And that's because he is a 3rd liner playing against 1st liners.

[Carman 387]

I don't care about the salary, I care about the line he plays on and the PP time her gets. If Kopey got the ice time Bert did, I would have howled bloody murder. Please note, Kopey was a 3/4th liner with damn near zero PP time. Compare that with Bert.

Exactly.

That's fine, but all I was saying is we could be in a lot worse situation right now then worrying about Bertuzzi hitting posts. Bertuzzi shouldn't be on the PP or on the first, but we literally have no other options.

[thedisappearer 291]

That wasn't in reference directly to you, I guess I should of said produce like Hossa instead of shooting % like Hossa. Sorry

And the bolded is exactly what I'm trying to get across. I don't expect him to be anything more then a 3rd line winger when our team is fully healthy. Those were my expectations, and that's why I'm not outraged by his lack of production.

And he isn't even close to being that bad on giveaways he has the same amount as Datsyuk. And that's because he is a 3rd liner playing against 1st liners.

I guess the place where you and I disagree is, then, that I'd much prefer to try some of those 3rd and 4th line guys in his spot for a game or two. Miller has looked great since he got here. Eaves shows potential. Bert is third line, all the way.

[thedisappearer 291]

That's fine, but all I was saying is we could be in a lot worse situation right now then worrying about Bertuzzi hitting posts. Bertuzzi shouldn't be on the PP or on the first, but we literally have no other options.

See above. We do have options... ones that could actually let us develop players who may not be stop gaps. I agree Bert isn't *the* issues, but he is clearly one of them. But yes, our s***ty PK and generally poor defense are more pressing issues. Then again, Howard should be getting more love around here.

[Carman 387]

I guess the place where you and I disagree is, then, that I'd much prefer to try some of those 3rd and 4th line guys in his spot for a game or two. Miller has looked great since he got here. Eaves shows potential. Bert is third line, all the way.

Miller/Eaves/Maltby/Draper are 3rd-4th liners and do not have the experience in playing 5v5 ES verse top opponents. Bertuzzi at least has experience. Not to mention those players ice time is usually saved for PK situations and Bertuzzi is not a PKer, so it's not just that easy to switch them in and out.

Now if Bertuzzi was getting no shots on net, leading the team in giveaways, leading the team in PIM, and not hitting than I can see one of them getting a shot over him, but that is not the situation. He just isn't finishing, and none of the other options are proven goal scorers.

[thedisappearer 291]

Miller/Eaves/Maltby/Draper are 3rd-4th liners and do not have the experience in playing 5v5 ES verse top opponents. Bertuzzi at least has experience. Not to mention those players ice time is usually saved for PK situations and Bertuzzi is not a PKer, so it's not just that easy to switch them in and out.

Now if Bertuzzi was getting no shots on net, leading the team in giveaways, leading the team in PIM, and not hitting than I can see one of them getting a shot over him, but that is not the situation. He just isn't finishing, and none of the other options are proven goal scorers.

(we're about to go back to shooting percentage)

His horrid shooting percentage shows he's doing worse than not finishing, it shows he's taking bad shots. He needs over 20 shots to get a single goal. I really think we could throw one of the younger, less experienced players out there with Dats and the PP and get soemthing better than this.

And saying he has less turnover than Dats is misleading. He doesn't handle the puck nearly as much as him. Point guards have more turnovers than power forwards. Works in basketball, works in hockey, too.)

[Carman 387]

(we're about to go back to shooting percentage)

His horrid shooting percentage shows he's doing worse than not finishing, it shows he's taking bad shots. He needs over 20 shots to get a single goal. I really think we could throw one of the younger, less experienced players out there with Dats and the PP and get soemthing better than this.

And saying he has less turnover than Dats is misleading. He doesn't handle the puck nearly as much as him. Point guards have more turnovers than power forwards. Works in basketball, works in hockey, too.)

If you've watched Bertuzzi he usually is a passer rather then shooter. Most of his goals came from getting the puck to the net, rather than shoots from outside the circle. He is being asked to get the puck to the net for Holmstrom. That's what I believe at least. That's how Franzen plays on that line, and that's how Hossa played on that line. It's just unfortunate because Bertuzzi no longer possesses a shot like that. And really no one on the team besides Zetterberg does at the moment.

His play style is much like a poor man's Thornton he is a very underrated passer. Also Bertuzzi plays on the PP with Cleary and Leino. The first PP is ZDH.

And I understand he doesn't handle the puck as much as Datsyuk, but he is getting a lot of TOI and isn't bad in Giveaways/TOI. Sure he isn't Forsberg with the puck, but do you honestly think Miller or Maltby would be better playing against players like Shea Weber in the offensive zone? We already have a lack of size in the top 6, replacing our biggest presence also won't help.

[thedisappearer 291]

Sure he isn't Forsberg with the puck, but do you honestly think Miller or Maltby would be better playing against players like Shea Weber in the offensive zone? We already have a lack of size in the top 6, replacing our biggest presence also won't help.

I never, ever said Maltby, and yes, I don't see a problem with giving a younger, hungrier player a few games there. Either it works out, or it makes Bert hungrier, or we are right we started. None of those is *bad*.

[Carman 387]

I never, ever said Maltby, and yes, I don't see a problem with giving a younger, hungrier player a few games there. Either it works out, or it makes Bert hungrier, or we are right we started. None of those is *bad*.

Fair enough, I'd rather not have to try and find more PKers to fill the void left by one of them. If one of them get called up, they are going to be playing in roles they are not expected to play and brought here to play, and are getting taken out of what they are on the team for in killing penalties. That is why Bertuzzi is being forced into this role, he has experience and his TOI isn't dedicated to penalty killing.

[Hockeytown_Ryan 122]

Helm is not, nor will ever be a goal scorer. He's Kris Draper v2.0.

Helm is a center, thus will never play with Datsyuk. End.

oooohhh.. WHat about Zett? Never should play with Pavs cause he's a center too??

YOU FAIL!!!

[cjm502 165]

oooohhh.. WHat about Zett? Never should play with Pavs cause he's a center too??

YOU FAIL!!!

Exactly. Once Filp is back we will have some room to play. Right now we have Dats, Z, Drapes, Helm, and Abby. Cleary can also play center if needed. Helm will get his shot with Z or Dats someday, and it will be magical.

[Carman 387]

Trying to throw helm on the first line will take him off the PK... He isn't going to be getting datsyuk ice time. Look we don't have a winger that is better than Bertuzzi until flippula comes back. Everyone that is being suggested are 3rd or 4th line pkers which is a much more vital role for the team then an even strength gamble.

Edited November 30, 2009 by Carman

[Jake Ryan 1]

Trying to throw helm on the first line will take him off the PK... He isn't foing to be getting datsyuk I've time. Look we don't have a winger that is better than Bertuzzi until flippula comes back. Everyone that is being suggested are 3rd or 4th line pkers which is a much more vital role for the team then an even strength gamble.

I disagree with you here. Datsyuk needs speed on his line. He has to have room to operate. That's why he is doing so poorly (to his own standards, of course) right now. Holmstrom and Bertuzzi are snails and do not open the game up for Pavel. Helm and Abdelkader can do that. If I was coaching, the team would look like this when healthy:

Cleary-Zetterberg-Franzen

Helm-Datsyuk-Abdelkader

Leino-Filppula-Bertuzzi

Tatar-Draper-Rittola

Lidstrom-Ericsson

Kronwall-Stuart

Rafalski-Kindl

Osgood

Howard

[Carman 387]

I feel datsyuk needs an elite shooting winger to be able to produce than a couple gritty young players that haven't been proven to produce.

[Jake Ryan 1]

I feel datsyuk needs an elite shooting winger to be able to produce than a couple gritty young players that haven't been proven to produce.

Well, too bad all our money is tied up in slow, crappy has-beens. And I'm 99% convinced Kenny will keep it this way when it comes to the 2010 off-season. I would bet my life that Draper, Maltby, and Holmstrom will still be around next year in some form or another. We have players in the minors that need to get their asses handed to them in the NHL this year so they can be good in years to come, but our genius GM and coach won't let that happen for some reason.

Holmstrom - 2.25 million

Draper - 1.6 million

Bertuzzi - 1.5 million

Williams - 1.5 million

Maltby - .9 million

Miller - .5 million

Eaves - .5 million

May - .5 million

Lebda - .6 million

Meech - .5 million

Total Waste = 10.35 million.

You don't think we could get a good sniper for 6 mil a season and fill in the rest of the holes with our Grand Rapids talent?

Helm (1) - Datsyuk (6.7) - Jokinen (4)

Cleary (2.8) - Zetterberg (6.1) - Franzen (4)

Abdelkader (1) - Filppula (3) - Kariya (3)

Tatar (.5) - Draper (1.6) - Rittola (.5)

Miller (.5), Eaves (.5)

Lidstrom (4.5) - Ericsson (.9)

Kronwall (3) - Stuart (3.75)

Rafalski (6) - Kindl (.5)

Meech (.5)

Osgood (1.4)

Howard (.7)

Total = 56.45 mil

[Hockeytown_Ryan 122]

Fair enough, I'd rather not have to try and find more PKers to fill the void left by one of them. If one of them get called up, they are going to be playing in roles they are not expected to play and brought here to play, and are getting taken out of what they are on the team for in killing penalties. That is why Bertuzzi is being forced into this role, he has experience and his TOI isn't dedicated to penalty killing.

Boy your hard to read... 1st he's being rewarded and now he's being forced ?

I really don't get your logic in thinking that 2 centers are not allowed to play together because Flip is not healthy either. Helm has played with Drapes and he has played with Abby... so please stop saying that 2 centers wont or can't play together, cause it has no merit, What difference does it make what 2 centers play together?

Anyone can contribute given enough time on the ice....

Bert Stinks!!!! deal with it. You'll see how bad he is when all the team is back and healthy.

HOLY CRAP TONIGHT vs. Dallas Helm is playing with Drapes..... I thought that could not be done!!!!!!! 2 centers!!!!!!!! no WAY!!!!

[Carman 387]

Boy your hard to read... 1st he's being rewarded and now he's being forced ?

I really don't get your logic in thinking that 2 centers are not allowed to play together because Flip is not healthy either. Helm has played with Drapes and he has played with Abby... so please stop saying that 2 centers wont or can't play together, cause it has no merit, What difference does it make what 2 centers play together?

Anyone can contribute given enough time on the ice....

Bert Stinks!!!! deal with it. You'll see how bad he is when all the team is back and healthy.

HOLY CRAP TONIGHT vs. Dallas Helm is playing with Drapes..... I thought that could not be done!!!!!!! 2 centers!!!!!!!! no WAY!!!!

He is rewarded in the sense he is getting to play with Datsyuk and hasn't been a healthy scratch like Leino or Eaves.

The reason those particular centers cannot play together is you'll have to take a PKer off the PK in order to give him more even strength time. Draper is also playing wing this season, Babcock is not playing him as a center. Helm is the 3rd line center, and Abby is the 4th line center. You haven't seen Abby and Helm on the ice together, at least not delibirately. There's a proper explanation, It's hard to follow what I wrote on an Iphone sorry about the misunderstanding.

Your sarcasm could use some work though.

Edited December 1, 2009 by Carman

[Hockeytown_Ryan 122]

He is rewarded in the sense he is getting to play with Datsyuk and hasn't been a healthy scratch like Leino or Eaves.

The reason those particular centers cannot play together is you'll have to take a PKer off the PK in order to give him more even strength time. Draper is also playing wing this season, Babcock is not playing him as a center. Helm is the 3rd line center, and Abby is the 4th line center. You haven't seen Abby and Helm on the ice together, at least not delibirately. There's a proper explanation, It's hard to follow what I wrote on an Iphone sorry about the misunderstanding.

Your sarcasm could use some work though.

so could your definition about centers playing together.... how can you justify you being right because Drapes is playing wing "tonight"? why cant Helm play wing with Dats?? please tap into your Babcock mind wave and explain that one....Helm being a PK guy has nothing to do with time on the ice. Everyone kills penalties.... some are just better at it then most....

nevermind..... it doesnt change the fact that Bertuzzi is only shining in your eyes because he is being "forced" into playing on the top line....

being a healthy scratch??? like Eaves or Lame-o? uhhh not really making your case. those guys are in and out based on what Babs thinks would be a better match up for that nights game. its called Depth....

Edited December 1, 2009 by Hockeytown_Ryan

[Carman 387]

so could your definition about centers playing together.... how can you justify you being right because Drapes is playing wing "tonight"? why cant Helm play wing with Dats?? please tap into your Babcock mind wave and explain that one....Hel being a PK guy has nothing to do with time on the ice. Everyone kills penalties.... some are just better at it then most....

nevermind..... it doesnt change the fact that Bertuzzi is only shining in your eyes because he is being "forced" into playing on the top line....

being a healthy scratch??? like Eaves or Lame-o? uhhh not really making your case. those guys are in and out based on what Babs thinks would be a better match up for that nights game. its called Depth....

Draper hasn't played center all season, just because he takes face-offs doesn't mean he has full defensive responsibility in the defensive and offensive zones.

And I'm not saying Helm can't play with Datsyuk, it would just create a huge hole on the PK. Helm is our forward leader on the PK in TOI, if you increase his even strength ice time he will be playing a considerable amount more which usually ends up with very poor results with players of his age. He would have to be getting a lot more TOI, and play significantly more time in role he has never played before. He would also have to become one of the team leaders in TOI if he were to keep playing on the PK which I can almost 100% rule out won't happen with a rookie-2nd year player. Helm is one of our best if not our best PKer and we can't afford to increase his playing time in anyway that might affect his current role.

Not to mention Helm is absolutely thriving in his current role as a 3rd line center. Now is not the time to try and force him into a gamble situation. Especially when the gamble could create more problems then it began with.

I'm not happy with Bertuzzi at all, he is not making good decisions with the puck. But I accept the fact that due to injuries he is the best option we have.

And if you think Leino is up and down the roster based purely on match-ups I don't know what to tell you.

Edited December 1, 2009 by Carman

[Hockeytown_Ryan 122]

Draper hasn't played center all season, just because he takes face-offs doesn't mean he has full defensive responsibility in the defensive and offensive zones.

And I'm not saying Helm can't play with Datsyuk, it would just create a huge hole on the PK. Helm is our forward leader on the PK in TOI, if you increase his even strength ice time he will be playing a considerable amount more which usually ends up with very poor results with players of his age. He would have to be getting a lot more TOI, and play significantly more time in role he has never played before. He would also have to become one of the team leaders in TOI if he were to keep playing on the PK which I can almost 100% rule out won't happen with a rookie-2nd year player. Helm is one of our best if not our best PKer and we can't afford to increase his playing time in anyway that might affect his current role.

Not to mention Helm is absolutely thriving in his current role as a 3rd line center. Now is not the time to try and force him into a gamble situation. Especially when the gamble could create more problems then it began with.

I'm not happy with Bertuzzi at all, he is not making good decisions with the puck. But I accept the fact that due to injuries he is the best option we have.

And if you think Leino is up and down the roster based purely on match-ups I don't know what to tell you.

Do your homework... Leino has played every game ( or damn near) he's not being a healthy scratch... Im talking about May and Eaves and Maltby and Miller..... in and out of the line up......

[Carman 387]

Do your homework... Leino has played every game ( or damn near) he's not being a healthy scratch... Im talking about May and Eaves and Maltby and Miller..... in and out of the line up......

Do my homework? This certainly isn't work for me.

Leino was demoted to the 4th line in one game, then completely sat out the next. Granted it was only one game, but it was pretty evident Babcock did it to send a message for him, he was announced a healthy scratch. You don't have to believe that, but I'm not the only one who thinks it went down like that.

So what I'm saying is Babcock is willing to discipline players he thinks are not playing well. He's also done it numerous times with Hudler.

[Kwame_Kilpatrick 0]

bertuzzi assisted on helms goal

[Hockeytown_Ryan 122]

Do my homework? This certainly isn't work for me.

Leino was demoted to the 4th line in one game, then completely sat out the next. Granted it was only one game, but it was pretty evident Babcock did it to send a message for him, he was announced a healthy scratch. You don't have to believe that, but I'm not the only one who thinks it went down like that.

So what I'm saying is Babcock is willing to discipline players he thinks are not playing well. He's also done it numerous times with Hudler.

But it was one game..... how is that being In and out!!!?

bertuzzi assisted on helms goal

and played on the 3rd line for the rest of the 2nd period.

[Carman 387]

But it was one game..... how is that being In and out!!!?

I said up and down the roster meaning being shuffled through the lines.

[Carman 387]

Well that seemed like a pretty good shot there.

Did anyone catch who he was out there with?