Bertuzzi SUCKS

[Konnan511 1,736]

I still long for the day they play "paralizer" when Bert scores! that would be fantastic!!!

First I was:

Then I went to:

Which turned into:

Followed breifly by:

Which preceded :

Finished strongly by: and

[dobbles 252]

I agree with Carman & co. about this whole situation. He wasn't signed to play on the top line, but has still played alright. By the looks of things, hopefully bounces will start going his way and he will get more goals. For those of you who think that putting Helm or Abdelkader (or even Helm and Abdelkader) next to Datsyuk will help, think again. Abdelkader showed last year in the playoffs that he couldn't play well on the wing, and the people who are pushing Darren 'I Love Him But He Has Stone Hands' Helm over Bertuzzi (because Bertuzzi 'can't finish') must be seeing a different Darren Helm than I've seen the last few games... Great checker, but not a finisher.

3rd in hits among forwards.

3rd in takeaways overall.

Stuart, Lidström, Ericsson, Rafalski and Datsyuk all have more giveaways.

5th in points among forwards.

Tied in 8th for biggest contract among forwards.

here's the thing. the bertuzzi supporters keep going back to the salary. thats great his is only making 1.5mil. but the problem is he is getting loads of ice time and not producing. for total minutes, he is the 4th highest forward. only datsyuk, zetterberg, and cleary have played more minutes. so in theory he should rank really high in all stats. but he really doesn't. also, when you factor in that he has played a lot with datsyuk he should be doing better. look at atlanta - they managed to turn rich peverly into a badass when playing with kovalchuk! bertuzzi also has played a lot of PP minutes.

that giveaways stat is super misleading. defensemen almost always lead in giveaways. so really the only person with more is datsyuk. he also plays a lot more minutes and has the puck a lot. its funny though that the stats used are only for forwards when it makes bert look better, but includes everyone when you need to sway the story.

overall the giveaway/takeaway think is pretty interesting. i look at it this way, when looking at a players difference between giveaways and takeaways, the bottom 7 players on the team include 6 defensemen and todd bertuzzi.... so while you can try and say he is better than datsyuk because he has less giveaways, pavel has enough takeaways that he finishes with +7... it is worth noting that only 4 wings have positive aggregate numbers. like i said, giveaways are heavily swayed towards defensemen so its not surprising that they all have bad aggregate numbers. he ends up with a -9. williams had -6 and no one else was worse than -4.

so please stop trying to use giveaways and takeaways as somehing that validates bertuzzi.

and like i said above, he is 4th for forwards in minutes so being towards the top in hits and points is expected. and also like i stated, he has played a lot with pavel, and a lot on the PP, so his numbers should be higher. heck draper also has 4 goals and 5 assists yet he gets nowhere near the quality minutes as bert does.

i understand our options are limited right now. but having watched bertuzzi the last few years quite a bit, i have seen enough to see him as a lazy player that doesn't play defense very well and is a turnover machine. sure he will put up some points, but i still would rather have someone else in his spot.

[NGKEIB 32]

here's the thing. the bertuzzi supporters keep going back to the salary. thats great his is only making 1.5mil. but the problem is he is getting loads of ice time and not producing. for total minutes, he is the 4th highest forward. only datsyuk, zetterberg, and cleary have played more minutes. so in theory he should rank really high in all stats. but he really doesn't. also, when you factor in that he has played a lot with datsyuk he should be doing better. look at atlanta - they managed to turn rich peverly into a badass when playing with kovalchuk! bertuzzi also has played a lot of PP minutes.

that giveaways stat is super misleading. defensemen almost always lead in giveaways. so really the only person with more is datsyuk. he also plays a lot more minutes and has the puck a lot. its funny though that the stats used are only for forwards when it makes bert look better, but includes everyone when you need to sway the story.

overall the giveaway/takeaway think is pretty interesting. i look at it this way, when looking at a players difference between giveaways and takeaways, the bottom 7 players on the team include 6 defensemen and todd bertuzzi.... so while you can try and say he is better than datsyuk because he has less giveaways, pavel has enough takeaways that he finishes with +7... it is worth noting that only 4 wings have positive aggregate numbers. like i said, giveaways are heavily swayed towards defensemen so its not surprising that they all have bad aggregate numbers. he ends up with a -9. williams had -6 and no one else was worse than -4.

so please stop trying to use giveaways and takeaways as somehing that validates bertuzzi.

and like i said above, he is 4th for forwards in minutes so being towards the top in hits and points is expected. and also like i stated, he has played a lot with pavel, and a lot on the PP, so his numbers should be higher. heck draper also has 4 goals and 5 assists yet he gets nowhere near the quality minutes as bert does.

i understand our options are limited right now. but having watched bertuzzi the last few years quite a bit, i have seen enough to see him as a lazy player that doesn't play defense very well and is a turnover machine. sure he will put up some points, but i still would rather have someone else in his spot.

All fair points - however, I don't think his PP time can necessarily be used against him, as the 2nd unit has shown very little chemistry, and that's not solely his fault. In terms of playing defense well, he's not a great defensive forward, but he has been backchecking well. I think my defense of Bertuzzi can be summed up as follows: who else? Draper does have 4 goals, and a 20+ goal season, but putting him on Datsyuk's wing would be a bad move, as it would break up the 3rd line which has been very effective, and put a slower player with two very quick ones (I'm not saying you were suggesting this). Aside from the forwards who aren't already on the top two lines, Bertuzzi has the best hands of all the forwards on the team, and has the best track record as a proven goal scorer. Hossa had trouble gelling with Holmström and Datsyuk in the playoffs, and there appears to be similar chemistry problems between them, though I will be interested to see if Babcock will stick with the Bertuzzi-Datsyuk-Leino line he used in the Dallas game. I can only hope that he will stop hitting posts and continue scoring.

[dobbles 252]

All fair points - however, I don't think his PP time can necessarily be used against him, as the 2nd unit has shown very little chemistry, and that's not solely his fault. In terms of playing defense well, he's not a great defensive forward, but he has been backchecking well. I think my defense of Bertuzzi can be summed up as follows: who else? Draper does have 4 goals, and a 20+ goal season, but putting him on Datsyuk's wing would be a bad move, as it would break up the 3rd line which has been very effective, and put a slower player with two very quick ones (I'm not saying you were suggesting this). Aside from the forwards who aren't already on the top two lines, Bertuzzi has the best hands of all the forwards on the team, and has the best track record as a proven goal scorer. Hossa had trouble gelling with Holmström and Datsyuk in the playoffs, and there appears to be similar chemistry problems between them, though I will be interested to see if Babcock will stick with the Bertuzzi-Datsyuk-Leino line he used in the Dallas game. I can only hope that he will stop hitting posts and continue scoring.

and in all fairness, i haven't been harping as much on bertuzzi as others with all our injuries. i understand that we are all fubar right now. however, I in no way think bertuzzi is a good player even at his salary. and i also was way against the signing initially.

to me though its one thing to defend bertuzzi, but it seems like this thread is starting to paint him as a good player. and thats something i totally disagree with.

[Carman 387]

But he hasn't played lazy this year. That's why we are defending him with those stats. You are dismissing stats on an argument that he isn't putting up numbers a first liner should be putting up. No one is saying he is playing great, and should remain on the first line when we are healthy. But what we are defending is the fact he is working his ass off on the ice, and is managing to be playing solidly for the role the team has him in right now. That's all.

There aren't any options right now. If you take Bertuzzi out of the top 6 you will have to replace him with a limited experience, pker. And create a whole other issue because the team is struggling to find consistency on the PK. It's a gamble that's not worth taking. He is the duct tape that just needs to hold it together until Flippula's return that's all I'm at least trying to say.

Rich Peverley is also the Chuck Norris of hockey, he cannot be compared to anyone else in the world, not to mention on the Red Wings.

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

But he hasn't played lazy this year. That's why we are defending him with those stats. You are dismissing stats on an argument that he isn't putting up numbers a first liner should be putting up. No one is saying he is playing great, and should remain on the first line when we are healthy. But what we are defending is the fact he is working his ass off on the ice, and is managing to be playing solidly for the role the team has him in right now. That's all.

There aren't any options right now. If you take Bertuzzi out of the top 6 you will have to replace him with a limited experience, pker. And create a whole other issue because the team is struggling to find consistency on the PK. It's a gamble that's not worth taking. He is the duct tape that just needs to hold it together until Flippula's return that's all I'm at least trying to say.

Rich Peverley is also the Chuck Norris of hockey, he cannot be compared to anyone else in the world, not to mention on the Red Wings.

I'm sure that could be argued. In a few games this year, he has looked completely sluggish and disinterested. Thankfully, he seems to play hard most nights.

[Carman 387]

I'm sure that could be argued. In a few games this year, he has looked completely sluggish and disinterested. Thankfully, he seems to play hard most nights.

If he was playing lazy he would of been taken off the line and treated like Leino.

[StormJH1 231]

The only alternative to Bertuzzi being "lazy" is that he's just "slow". Neither one is good, but at least with the former, there's some indication that he COULD be faster. Anybody (even Holland) can make a mistake once, but I have no idea what they remembered from his 2007 play that would make the Wings brass want to say "Yeah, we need THAT guy on our team!"

He's NOT a power forward anymore, his foot speed forces him to take costly penalties, and the combination of guilt/sedatives related to the Steve Moore incident has neutered any motivation he has to play tough, physical hockey. He looks like a forward version of Derian Hatcher out there.

[Carman 387]

Bertuzzi has never been fleet of foot. He hasn't lost that much speed anyways.

I really think most of you have unfair expectations. He is not a All-Star player.

Take a second and look around the league at other 1.5 million dollar players. Sure there are are a few stand-outs (Maxim Afinagenov for instance), but there are a lot of players that are not doing the things we are getting out of Bertuzzi. Hell look at Dustin Byfuglien for instance, Chicago is paying him 3 million and look at this numbers.

Bertuzzi isn't great, but he is not horrible and in the end is helping the team whether you think he is or not.

[BUHdactyl 23]

Bertuzzi is fine, you're all just passing the blame onto him because Samuelsson left for Vancouver and Williams is injured.

The only possible complaint anyone could have is that he's relatively slow, but that's to be expected when we watch helm, eaves, and draper rip it up every night. That whole issue leads into another - turnovers. His lack of speed leads to turnovers but honestly, he's not the only one out there turning it over. Leino is possibly slower, and as much as I love Leino he is far worse than Bertuzzi, and Babcock knows this too.

If you want to ***** about physical play you need to take that elsewhere. Bertuzzi wasn't brought on board to deliver crushing blows and enforce Bertuzzi Law, he was brought in to replace some goals we'd lost in the off-season. He's got health issues and the last thing he needs to be doing is crashing around like a dumbass and injuring himself - especially now with all the recent injuries. If you want physical play that's what Helm, Eaves, May, Cleary, Kronwall, and Stuart are here for. He's here to score, and he's currently 6th on our team which is completely acceptable.

Once Bertuzzi is settled and gets some confidence all of you Bertuzzi haters will be bongin' his *******. Look at what happened recently - Bert got some confidence with a shootout winner and the following game he scored a goal and added an assist. We'll see about 15-20 goals from him this season which is about what Samuelsson produced last year so for the last time, get off the poor guy's nuts.

[PaulinMiamiBeach 0]

No he isn't. He is one of the leaders in hits and takeaways for our forwarsd. He is 2nd in terms of shots on goal and he isn't missing the net as much as zetterberg is. He is creating scoring chances that holmstrom is not capitalizing on. He is hardly the reason for the red wings trouble. I'd worry about datsyuk and zetterberg or lidsrrom or holmstrom or osgood before I'm worrying about a 3rd liner that isn't able to live up to unfair expectations of franzen or hossa.

I don't trust hits as a stat. too subjective. the real key is do you NOTICE his hits. I sure don't. so he bumps a guy and gets a check mark in the hit column, so what? did it affect the play? did it stop a scoring chance or generate one? considering he is -7 (third worst on the team) I would say the answer is a resounding no.

does he have a lot of shots? sure. 79 of them, second on the team. and he has a whopping 4 goals. that tells you his shots are not QUALITY shots - which is what is important. second on the team in shots, and seventh in goals...is not a good combination.

he's tied for third on the team (leaving out May for obvious reasons) in penalty minutes, and it's obvious to most of us that Bertuzzi's penalties are typically of the "dumb" variety.

he is third in takeaways with 17 behind Datsyuk (36) and Zetterberg (22). oh joy. what does he do with the puck once he gets it? not much.

the proof is in the pudding. you can crunch numbers all day but what it comes down to is his impact on the ice. he is not having the impact a player his size should have. most everyone here sees it, why don't you?

next game you watch, pay specific attention to one thing - when Bertuzzi has the puck make a mental note of how long it takes before the other team has it back.

[PaulinMiamiBeach 0]

I agree with Carman & co. about this whole situation. He wasn't signed to play on the top line, but has still played alright. By the looks of things, hopefully bounces will start going his way and he will get more goals. For those of you who think that putting Helm or Abdelkader (or even Helm and Abdelkader) next to Datsyuk will help, think again. Abdelkader showed last year in the playoffs that he couldn't play well on the wing, and the people who are pushing Darren 'I Love Him But He Has Stone Hands' Helm over Bertuzzi (because Bertuzzi 'can't finish') must be seeing a different Darren Helm than I've seen the last few games... Great checker, but not a finisher.

3rd in hits among forwards.

3rd in takeaways overall.

Stuart, Lidström, Ericsson, Rafalski and Datsyuk all have more giveaways.

5th in points among forwards.

Tied in 8th for biggest contract among forwards.

how ridiculous - comparing a forward's giveaways to the team's defensemen. derrrrrr

now look at WHY Datsyuk has so many giveaways. he's a dangler. he makes offense happen. the way he controls the puck along the boards in the offensive zone is beyond amazing. he does it all game every game, but that kind of play results in turnovers - and so do his attempts at centering the puck for scoring opportunities. Datsyuk's giveaways are a result of his aggressive (and productive) playing style. Bertuzzi's giveaways are a result of him being a turd, getting knocked off the puck by much smaller players, and poor decision-making.

I'd rather see Bertuzzi just dump the puck into the zone and then go chase it, crushing someone in the process, than actually try to carry the puck.

[Carman 387]

Seriously bumping a thread saying stats are meaningless?

Cool story. He's been playing fine, do us all a favor and make his picture into a dart board if you hate him so much.

[PaulinMiamiBeach 0]

Seriously bumping a thread saying stats are meaningless?

Cool story. He's been playing fine, do us all a favor and make his picture into a dart board if you hate him so much.

not sure where you read "stats are meaningless" in my posts. and sorry for bumping a NINE PAGE thread. seems like a popular discussion, and after last night's game I think it was worth bringing up again. the guy is a turd. he touches the puck and the other team ends up with it more often than not - and it's usually when they're trying to get some pressure in the offensive zone. the guy is like a relief valve for the other team. how can someone that big get pushed around on the boards so much?

[Carman 387]

Just jealous of his elite puck handling skills. Not going to take the bait. Bertuzzi is our best and hardest working player.

[Hockeytown_Ryan 119]

Just jealous of his elite puck handling skills. Not going to take the bait. Bertuzzi is our best and hardest working player.

Still singing his praises....? He's not on line one, I guess they found a better option....

I ADD .... He has not been our worst player by far.. I still don't think he is "ALL THAT".. He's doing HIS best with the time he is being given.... if and when we get healthy... he will be back to his old self... 3rd line and less time and less production.

sorry...but it's true

Edited December 8, 2009 by Hockeytown_Ryan

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Just jealous of his elite puck handling skills. Not going to take the bait. Bertuzzi is our best and hardest working player.

Are you related to Todd Bertuzzi by any chance?

Calling him our best player is like saying that Lebda is our best d-man.

And if he's so skilled and hard-working, how come his has so few points? Skill and hard work usually equals tons of points.

[Carman 387]

Are you related to Todd Bertuzzi by any chance?

Calling him our best player is like saying that Lebda is our best d-man.

And if he's so skilled and hard-working, how come his has so few points? Skill and hard work usually equals tons of points.

He's had to carry around that crutch named Datsyuk. The soft euro has cost him a good start points wise.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Just jealous of his elite puck handling skills. Not going to take the bait. Bertuzzi is our best and hardest working player.

I sense sarcasm.

[mjlegend 155]

[Shady Ultima 40]

I knew this topic would be coming to the top...

[Carman 387]

Soooo I'm not that crazy after all. Granted it was only one game, but all the same he was the best player tonight(Howard played well too, but that bad goal hurt).

[mjlegend 155]

I knew this topic would be coming to the top...

I was kind of suprised it wasn't there when I got here.

Good job for Bert for getting shots through. He's not the same player he was in 2001, but who is?

Cheers for a Wings win against a hated opponent and here's hoping they can keep it up against the Nashville (Sexual) Predators.

Edited December 12, 2009 by mjlegend

[Shady Ultima 40]

I like Bert, and I've been hoping for him to start putting in all those posts he's been hitting. If he can keep it up, he'll be a HUGE steal at his price tag.

[dropkickshanahans 463]

I thought Leino played very well too. But boy was Bert-a-dancin'!