Kane,Toews and Keith re-signed

[Carman 387]

huh?? Do you play or something?

Pat played a couple season of AAA here in MI.

Hossa will never put his arms above his head in Chicago, either.

Have fun with your irrational hate.

Source?

Really, do you not understand the cap? They needed room for veterans, because they originally planned on having Abby in the minors this year. If you think they honestly chose Franzen because he is a better overall player I don't know what to tell you. Hossa has more points in two season then Franzen has in his career.

TLDR. Get over it.

[titanium2 867]

He gets a big salary and his response is "I deserve it". What happened to humility?

Can you imagine Stevie Y saying "I deserve it".

In my mind, a person that has no humility is in fact an ass. Just my opinion.

Kane is a great young player but he really is immature. I guess they don't have guys in the Chicago organization that teach the young kids how to act.

[egroen 384]

The guy couldn't put his arm over his head in the playoffs. He was significantly impacted by a torn rotator-cuff that he had to have surgery on, and only recently has been able to play hockey.

Hossa carried us in the regular season. He is a top winger in the league. And is miles and miles ahead of Franzen.

That said, the Red Wing's did not have the roster position to reasonable resign Hossa. It would of required too much reworking.

Oh and Pat has always been very very immature. Played a couple season's with/against him. But that said he is an amazing top line offensive player, and a incredibly hard worker that would do what it takes to win.

Tough to get your finger on it with how tight-lipped the org is about injuries - but when it came out that Hossa needed surgery, didn't Holland clarify the injury actually dated back to before the regular season and they elected to not operate at the time.

He had a great reg season but awful playoffs - sure, the injury probably got worse over that time, but then he should not have been on the first line if that was the case.

Hossa's playoff were a collosal disappointment, especially for someone making $7 1/2 million.

[egroen 384]

How many players after signing a big contract have the balls to say "I deserve it"? That's what I have an issue with.

He probably does deserve it, but only an ******* would say it publicly. Yea, you are so frickin great and you worked so hard that you deserve it.

How 'bout a little bit of humility. Maybe thank the blackhawks organization, your teammates or coaches next time...

Can you imagine Steve Yzerman saying "I deserve it" or Nick Lidstrom or even Sydney Crosby...

Agreed. Kane acts like Ryan Getzlaf looks, "brah!"

Edited December 4, 2009 by egroen

[Carman 387]

Tough to get your finger on it with how tight-lipped the org is about injuries - but when it came out that Hossa needed surgery, didn't Holland clarify the injury actually dated back to before the regular season and they elected to not operate at the time.

He had a great reg season but awful playoffs - sure, the injury probably got worse over that time, but then he should not have been on the first line if that was the case.

Hossa's playoff were a collosal disappointment, especially for someone making $7 1/2 million.

Thing is that is the type of injury that could get considerably worse after a bad hit. He got rocked a couple times throughout the playoffs, and did not look like the same player.

I just think it's foolish to call the guy a failure when he had to get freaking surgery right after the playoffs... Especially when he carried the Pen's in the 08' playoffs.

If you want to believe that he just didn't try, and didn't care about a Stanley Cup go right ahead. I'm perfectly happy focusing on the positives of him carrying our team to the playoffs.

Edit: Oh and even a hurt Hossa was better than anything else we had. He was not playing the same amount as the beginning of the playoffs that he was playing for the last couple series.

Edited December 4, 2009 by Carman

[egroen 384]

Thing is that is the type of injury that could get considerably worse after a bad hit. He got rocked a couple times throughout the playoffs, and did not look like the same player.

I just think it's foolish to call the guy a failure when he had to get freaking surgery right after the playoffs... Especially when he carried the Pen's in the 08' playoffs.

If you want to believe that he just didn't try, and didn't care about a Stanley Cup go right ahead. I'm perfectly happy focusing on the positives of him carrying our team to the playoffs.

Once all the injuries started piling on Hossa tried doing everything himself which turned him into nothing but a glorified puck hog.

It was infuriating to watch, as he was the #1 player who should have been stepping up.

[Frozen-Man 144]

Are you effing kidding me? Kane is 21 years old. Franzen is 30.

Take your red and white glasses off for a second.

I'm not denying that Kane's age is an advantage in his favor but Kane's contract is only for 5 years so the comparison should be Kane for the next five years vs. Franzen for the next 5 years which is a much closer call than Kane for the rest of his career vs. Franzen for the rest of his career. The first is a much closer call than the second.

How many players after signing a big contract have the balls to say "I deserve it"? That's what I have an issue with.

He probably does deserve it, but only an ******* would say it publicly. Yea, you are so frickin great and you worked so hard that you deserve it.

How 'bout a little bit of humility. Maybe thank the blackhawks organization, your teammates or coaches next time...

Can you imagine Steve Yzerman saying "I deserve it" or Nick Lidstrom or even Sydney Crosby...

That is the key to me. One of the best things about Yzerman, and if flowed down to the entire team, he always showed humility and if your superstar doesn't act like a prima donna and like he deserves everything it makes it hard for lesser teammates to gripe about salary, ice time, lines, power play time, etc. (although as Feds proved it doesn't absolutely prevent it).

[Tommy_Like_Wingy 25]

How many players after signing a big contract have the balls to say "I deserve it"? That's what I have an issue with.

He probably does deserve it, but only an ******* would say it publicly. Yea, you are so frickin great and you worked so hard that you deserve it.

How 'bout a little bit of humility. Maybe thank the blackhawks organization, your teammates or coaches next time...

Can you imagine Steve Yzerman saying "I deserve it" or Nick Lidstrom or even Sydney Crosby...

To be fair that could've easily been taken out of context. The original post this quote appeared in conveniently left out the question he was asked. You guys are treating it like he ran up to the podium and pushed Bowman out of the way just to say that, when I'm guessing the reporters probably phrased it that way in their question for him.

I could very well be wrong if somebody could post a link.

[Frozen-Man 144]

To be fair that could've easily been taken out of context. The original post this quote appeared in conveniently left out the question he was asked. You guys are treating it like he ran up to the podium and pushed Bowman out of the way just to say that, when I'm guessing the reporters probably phrased it that way in their question for him.

I could very well be wrong if somebody could post a link.

I'll bet that you are probably right, the reporter probably did phrase it that way, but men like Yzerman have the ability to deflect the attention away from themselves and their accomplishments. Kane could have finished with "and I am truly blessed to be part of this team and this organization where I have had the opportunity to succeed." Something similar to that would have come across much better than "and I deserve it."

[Guest zackmorris]

Someone is about to get Campbell and/or Huet for peanuts. They'll be looking to practically give those two away. They have to. No two ways about it. They're f***ed if they don't.

Hell, they're still up s*** creek even after that. They should've never touched Hossa. God help them if they go deep, too. Their players will be worth that much more after that.

[Theophany 110]

Bad choice IMO. I remember a lot of people last season saying that if it came down to signing either Mule or Hossa, to let Mule go. Seeing how Mule continued his hot play in the playoffs and Hossa completely vanished when it mattered, it was a good choice to let Hossa walk.

Over the past four years in the playoffs:

Franzen: 63 GP, 29 G, 22 A, 51 Pts, 0.809 PPG

Hossa (only 3 playoff seasons): 46 GP, 18 G, 24 A, 42 Pts, 0.913 PPG

Hossa is better, even when he's injured for the most significant portion (22 games) of his playoff career in the past four years.

Hossa's also better defensively.

I realize that everyone here doesn't like Hossa because he 'betrayed' the Wings, but c'mon. Stop being a homer and admit that you would easily take Hossa over Franzen.

Oh, and realize that Franzen was playing with the Wings all four years and Hossa was playing with Atlanta (lol), Pittsburgh, and Detroit.

[Frozen-Man 144]

Over the past four years in the playoffs:

Franzen: 63 GP, 29 G, 22 A, 51 Pts, 0.809 PPG

Hossa (only 3 playoff seasons): 46 GP, 18 G, 24 A, 42 Pts, 0.913 PPG

Hossa is better, even when he's injured for the most significant portion (22 games) of his playoff career in the past four years.

Hossa's also better defensively.

I realize that everyone here doesn't like Hossa because he 'betrayed' the Wings, but c'mon. Stop being a homer and admit that you would easily take Hossa over Franzen.

Oh, and realize that Franzen was playing with the Wings all four years and Hossa was playing with Atlanta (lol), Pittsburgh, and Detroit.

I don't fully disagree with you but there are a few other factors to consider. Mule had .463 goals per game and Hossa had .391 goals per game. Additionally, Mule has over-performed compared to expectations whereas for what most were expecting Hossa has under-performed (with the exception of his playoffs in Pittsburgh). If you look at his last two playoff campaigns Hossa had 12 goals and 26 points in 20 games with Pitt and 6 goals and 15 points in 23 games with Detroit. Mule on the other hand had 13 goals and 18 points in 16 games (in 2007-08) and 12 goals and 23 points in 23 games (in 2008-09).

See the thing about stats is that they are easily manipulated. You went back 4 years for Mule, no one thought much about him 4 years ago. Mule only really blossomed into a star the last few years. In the last two playoff years Mule actually has much better stats.

Mule:

2007-08 16 GP, 13 G, 5 A, 18 Pts, +13

2008-09 23 GP, 12 G, 11A, 23 Pts, +8

Totals 39 GP, 25 G, 16A, 41 Pts, +21 1.051 PPG average

Hossa:

2007-08 20 GP, 12 G, 14 A, 26 Pts, +8

2008-09 23 GP, 6 G, 9 A, 15 Pts, +5

Totals 43 GP, 18 G, 23 A, 41 Pts, +13 0.953 PPG average

Based upon the last two years Mule has the better stats 7 more goals and just as many points in 4 fewer games (and with a better +/-). The best year for comparison I think though is the one year they both played on the same team (thus also against the same teams although on different lines and with different power play and ice times). Mule doubled Hossa in goals, beat him by almost 20% in assists, almost 45% in overall points, and almost 40% better +/- in the same number of games.

When you combine that with the fact that Hossa wanted more money I don't think that it is homerism to think Mule might have been a better choice between the two options.

[diehardredwing19 11]

Over the past four years in the playoffs:

Franzen: 63 GP, 29 G, 22 A, 51 Pts, 0.809 PPG

Hossa (only 3 playoff seasons): 46 GP, 18 G, 24 A, 42 Pts, 0.913 PPG

Hossa is better, even when he's injured for the most significant portion (22 games) of his playoff career in the past four years.

Hossa's also better defensively.

I realize that everyone here doesn't like Hossa because he 'betrayed' the Wings, but c'mon. Stop being a homer and admit that you would easily take Hossa over Franzen.

Oh, and realize that Franzen was playing with the Wings all four years and Hossa was playing with Atlanta (lol), Pittsburgh, and Detroit.

honestly ima be very honest lol, i love hossa even though he left n i admit that obv. he was gonna leave cuz kenny was tryna get him for a price that we can only dream of at 4 mil per season, but overall n even when we did re-sign franzen i was happy very happy indeed! i said it back in january n say the same today ID TAKE JOHAN FRANZEN OVER MARIAN HOSSA ANY DAY! hes our product that we drafted also hes more clutch for us n won a cup with us n for the price come on its a steal

[Guest zackmorris]

To be fair, Franzen's asked to play more defense here. Regardless of which is better, Franzen has been asked to backcheck more often and maintain responsible play in his own end more than Hossa has.

That said, we don't need another Franzen vs Hossa thread.

[Theophany 110]

The best year for comparison I think though is the one year they both played on the same team (thus also against the same teams although on different lines and with different power play and ice times). Mule doubled Hossa in goals, beat him by almost 20% in assists, almost 45% in overall points, and almost 40% better +/- in the same number of games.

When you combine that with the fact that Hossa wanted more money I don't think that it is homerism to think Mule might have been a better choice between the two options.

Ah, but Hossa was playing while injured. That certainly makes a huge difference; also, going back four years should favor Franzen, since, y'know, he's got more games in four years than Hossa does (Hossa gains 4 games going back an additional two years, Franzen gains 24).

You're not being objective if you think Franzen is better than Hossa. Cost has no issue in the discussion, as it was left out of the initial question.

honestly ima be very honest lol, i love hossa even though he left n i admit that obv. he was gonna leave cuz kenny was tryna get him for a price that we can only dream of at 4 mil per season, but overall n even when we did re-sign franzen i was happy very happy indeed! i said it back in january n say the same today ID TAKE JOHAN FRANZEN OVER MARIAN HOSSA ANY DAY! hes our product that we drafted also hes more clutch for us n won a cup with us n for the price come on its a steal

I'll be honest with you, I didn't read a word of your post because you type like a retarded kid on speed.

[hckypete96 3]

No, rivals indicate a level of equal competition for the same award.

The Hawks have not been on the same level as the Wings since like 1993. They're starting to come back, but make the playoffs and compete with the Wings before you start slinging around a title like 'rival'.

Because right now, you don't even compare to the Ducks, and they're not a rival.

wtf? how are the ducks not a rival??? ducks and hawks are the only rivals wings have as far as i'm concerned

[55fan 5,133]

I'll be honest with you, I didn't read a word of your post because you type like a retarded kid on speed.

Not quite. Retarded kids on speed would have said that we resigned Franzen.

I have a question that I don't recall being addressed before. Since all three signed the same day, I am assuming that they worked out all three deals together. Can players get together and do it, or does the GM have to deal with each one individually until they all align correctly?

[Carman 387]

Not quite. Retarded kids on speed would have said that we resigned Franzen.

I have a question that I don't recall being addressed before. Since all three signed the same day, I am assuming that they worked out all three deals together. Can players get together and do it, or does the GM have to deal with each one individually until they all align correctly?

The discussion is about pure player ability not contract. It's pretty obvious the Wing's would have had to make some major contract moves, and completely change the landscape of the team to be able to pay a top winger like Hossa.

Franzen is a better player for the Wing's situation.

Hossa is a much better proven player for practicality any other situation.

That's all I'm trying to say at least.

[55fan 5,133]

The discussion is about pure player ability not contract. It's pretty obvious the Wing's would have had to make some major contract moves, and completely change the landscape of the team to be able to pay a top winger like Hossa.

Franzen is a better player for the Wing's situation.

Hossa is a much better proven player for practicality any other situation.

That's all I'm trying to say at least.

Sorry. Didn't mean to go OT in your thread. I was just curious.

[Doc Holiday 0]

Ah, but Hossa was playing while injured. That certainly makes a huge difference; also, going back four years should favor Franzen, since, y'know, he's got more games in four years than Hossa does (Hossa gains 4 games going back an additional two years, Franzen gains 24).

Hossa also scored 40 goals in the regular season while injured. In the playoffs he only scored in three games.

Also going back 4 years doesn't help Franzen since he wasn't a top line player till the 2008 playoffs. His role was third line defensive forward, not scorer.

You're not being objective if you think Franzen is better than Hossa. Cost has no issue in the discussion, as it was left out of the initial question.

Ability-wise, no. But Franzen has proven himself when it counts, and that is what this team needs.

[Frozen-Man 144]

Ah, but Hossa was playing while injured.

I agree that matters but Hossa supposedly had the injury throughout the season and played well but then didn't perform as well in the playoffs.

[A]lso, going back four years should favor Franzen, since, y'know, he's got more games in four years than Hossa does (Hossa gains 4 games going back an additional two years, Franzen gains 24).

No going back four years shouldn't favor Franzen because your main arguement for Hossa was PPG you added in Mules earlier playoffs where he had a lot of games but not much production. As I showed in the stats, going back 4 years hurts Franzen because he was not a producer 4 years ago. He did not break out until a couple of years ago. That is what his contract was signed based upon. It is always "what have you done for me lately" not "what did you do for me four years ago." That is why Franzen got the big pay increase because of his previous two playoffs not the two before that. It is the same reason that Bertuzzi is getting the salary that he is now even though he had 60-97 point seasons in 2001-2006. He is not the same player that he was then and Mule has not played the last few playoffs like he played in the playoffs four years ago. A players worth to a team in how is performing now. The closer in time you get to the present (while still allowing enough of a span to get an accurate overview) the better it is for determining a player's current abilities and worth to the team. For example if you look at Chelios over his career it is incredible but if you look more recently it is not as impressive, players change, whether it be because of age (as in the case of Cheli) or because a player develops and comes into his own (as in the case of Franzen). You went back four years because when you did it makes Mule's stats worse not better, his most current play in the playoffs is right on par with Hossa's.

You're not being objective if you think Franzen is better than Hossa. Cost has no issue in the discussion, as it was left out of the initial question.

I'm not arguing that Mule is better than Hossa, in fact if you look back I said I didn't fully disagree with you. My point is that Mule has held his own stats wise against Hossa's the last few playoffs, he wanted less money, was brought up in the Wings system, and therefore was a better fit to keep on this team.

[Theophany 110]

wtf? how are the ducks not a rival??? ducks and hawks are the only rivals wings have as far as i'm concerned

You consider the Hawks—a team that hasn't been successful (until last year) since 1993—a rival?

The only rival that I acknowledge is the Avs in the 90s; the Ducks pale in comparison.

Give it a few more years, and help the Hawks get an enforcer or two on their team and we'll see about rivalries.