Who would do better with Datsyuk's ice time

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Since filppula's return he has been our best forward. He plays hard every night, is excellent defensively and has been contributing to the scoreboard. Since his return he and Datsyuk have the same point totals (and this is after Filppula has missed two months, nearly an entire offseason while Datsyuk was playing the entire time), with Datsyuk having better linemates and more ice time. Datsyuk, while obviously has the skill to put up the points but just never looks into it.

So I ask this question. Obviously Filppula is not better than Datsyuk but he has damn well been playing better than him. In a teams that claims to reward hard work, I think filppula deserves Datsyuk's ice time more than he does.

Here's something interesting. I just opened, sorted, compiled and saved the last 14 Red Wings games in Excel. Took me about 45 mins, which seems like a waste of time, but I was genuinely interested in testing your theory (since I too feel like Val's been scoring the most). It seemed like you were right when I started with today's game and worked back through the last few games.

Unfortunately your assertion did not hold. The top players in terms of points based completely on the games since Filppula returned are:

1. Lidstrom--14gm/2g/11a/13pts/+9 (that's right Lids has been a 0.93 points per game player over the last 14 games)

2. Datsyuk-- 14gm/3g/6a/9pts/+7

3. Filppula-- 14gm/2g/7a/9pts/+3

4. Bertuzzi-- 14gm/5g/3a/8pts/+2

5. Rafalski-- 14gm/2g/6a/8pts/+5

6. Helm-- 14gm/5g/2a/7pts/+1 (wtf?)

7. Cleary-- 9gm/3g/3a/6pts/+3

8. Zetterberg-- 10gm/3g/2a/5pts/+0 (note that he's a 0.5ppg... below Datsyuk's pace)

9. Miller-- 14gm/2g/3a/5pts/+2

10. Eaves-- 14gm/2g/2a/4pts/-8

The worst +/- values belonged to Eaves(-8), Meech(-5), then Abdelkader(-4). The worst forward pt total were those of Abdelakder (0) and Maltby (0).

Also note that Lidstrom is the only player scoring at about a point per game (he's good for 0.93 points per game over this period), with Cleary coming in second with a ppg value of 0.67 then Dats/Filppula next at 0.64.

Thus your assertion that Filppula has been the best forward is false any way you look at it:

--> Cleary has the best ppg of all forwards over this period

--> Datsyuk has superior numbers because he has one more goal than Filppula with the same point total

--> Datsyuk's +/- blows Val's out of the water and is second only to Lidstrom

--> Filppula is getting a ton of minutes including lots of PP time-- he hasn't played lower than 2nd line centre at any point since getting back.

Q.E.D.

[Theophany 110]

Q.E.D.

You're like, my hero, dude.

[Z and D for the C 712]

Interesting data, didn't think Lidstrom would have that many points (but 7 (seven!) of those are secondary assists. so according to gcom those don't even count right? /s). I'm happy to be wrong. But a few things with your ending points.

- I'm not looking only at scoring and points. Even more so a .03 difference in ppg is just unworthy to even mention.

- Honestly, I don't think datsyuk having 1 more goal is very consequential. If he had 5 or 6 goals to Fil's 2 then you have something, but again the difference is so small it doesn't change anything.

- No argument against +/-, but, and though it's minor, according to Datsyuk's stats page he only +6. Again a minor detail but I'll still mention it.

- I'm not sure what the relevance there is. Cleary gets the same PP time and the same minutes as Flip, and Datsyuk gets more minutes and is on the first line. And Flip's second line still isn't even quite a legit NHL second line.

And I am talking about forwards here.

Edited January 24, 2010 by Z and D for the C

[13dangledangle 968]

I say we put Flip with Dats....

.....Flip•Datsyuk•Cleary

Bertuzzi•Z•Holmstrom(back soon)

Eaves•Helm•Miller

Drapes•Abby•May

[Drake_Marcus 890]

You're like, my hero, dude.

Thanks

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Interesting data, didn't think Lidstrom would have that many points (but 7 (seven!) of those are secondary assists. so according to gcom those don't even count right? /s). I'm happy to be wrong. But a few things with your ending points.

- I'm not looking only at scoring and points. Even more so a .03 difference in ppg is just unworthy to even mention.

- Honestly, I don't think datsyuk having 1 more goal is very consequential. If he had 5 or 6 goals to Fil's 2 then you have something, but again the difference is so small it doesn't change anything.

- No argument against +/-, but, and though it's minor, according to Datsyuk's stats page he only +6. Again a minor detail but I'll still mention it.

- I'm not sure what the relevance there is. Cleary gets the same PP time and the same minutes as Flip, and Datsyuk gets more minutes and is on the first line. And Flip's second line still isn't even quite a legit NHL second line.

And I am talking about forwards here.

Well with D-men you have to expect a significant number of secondary assists compared to primary simply by virtue of where they usually are when they touch the puck. And to be honest it's silly to say secondary assists are less significant than primary. The primary passer doesn't necessarily make a tougher or more important pass compared to the secondary passer. While I'd say primary assists are, in general, more important, there's a reason why two people can get assists on a goal. And there's a reason why both passers get equal credit. The order of the pass doesn't really tell you the importance of that pass to the overall play, wouldn't you agree?

Anyway, I came into it agreeing with you man. I was surprised when Val didn't come out on top. But if you look at the stats his play hasn't risen (in terms of points per game) as much as Datsyuk's has fallen. Datsyuk's been a 1.18 ppg player over the last two seasons. Right now he's at about 0.8ppg. Filppula's elevated his play, no doubt, but not as much as Datsyuk's play has fallen off.

Anyway, I think your argument that Filppula's been hot lately is good-- based on the last handful of games he has been red hot. However, the team needs to give Dats and Z every opportunity to break out of their slumps and that means giving them their regular ice time. Reducing Datsyuk's ice-time is not a long-term solution to our problems. Filppula's ice time has gone up so let him do with it what he can. I'd love for him to break out and be a star player. I've always been a nay-sayer when people compare him to Dats or say he's going to be a big point-producer in the future, but I'm a Wings fan first and foremost so I love being proven wrong when it comes to underestimating Wings players.

[Aussie_Wing 354]

Datsyuk has earned every cent of his money and some from the second he pulled a Wings sweater over his head. He's a proven performer. This is a weak season and he still not playing terrible at all. He's mostly been unlucky, especially lately.

Meanwhile, Flip is still overpaid based on anything he's proven thus far. So I think he needs to do a hell of a lot better than he's doing now to justify his contract which is currently still extravagant based on his performance.

Can we talk about that? Why don't you make a thread about that. After all, even you've admitted that he's overpaid based on what he's done so far in his career. Why aren't we talking about that?

Oh look who it is, you again.

Filppula’s contract is a good one, good value.

[titanium2 867]

Oh look who it is, you again.

Filppula’s contract is a good one, good value.

I've never understood how people can constantly argue about things in which it seems so clear that neither side will budge.

[stormboy 47]

so, unlike drake, i'm not in the mood to do a statistical analysis, though i'm sure glad he did and see the value in it. i also see the point of the poster who said "look at the video each of dat's points versus filppula's points." but i'm just going to say something, and it will probably be a minor blip in this thread that no one will even quote. but here it is.

*

i'm sick of people bitching about how secondary assists don't count. yes, sometimes you were the guy who touched the puck before some other guy made a good play before some OTHER guy scored a goal, and you somehow got a point. but look. sometimes the guy who scores the goal had it go in off his skate or shoulder or something; sometimes he is given a GIFT of a rebound or a perfect pass or something else and shoots into an open net. so how much credit should he get for burying an open net shot? sometimes the the guy who gets the primary assist just tapped the puck to another guy who made a great move on the goalie and scored; sometimes the guy who gets the primary assist shot it wide unintentionally and and another guy picked up the loose puck, took it to the net and scored. does he really deserve the primary assist when someone else did all the work? or how about this: what if some guy wins a vicious battle in the corner and makes a brilliant outlet pass to a guy who just taps the puck to another guy who scores an easy goal? the guy who got the secondary assist did the hardest work in that play, and yet "only" gets a secondary assist!

now, i'm not trying to claim that all flip's points come from the latter situation. but dats is playing with the best players on the team. so, to me, if flip is at least keeping up in points, with marginally less players and a few less minutes, it's really hard to dog on him, because over the long term, you're not going to be the guy who just "happened" to touch the puck before two other players made AMAZING ******* PLAYS, as a lot of people seem to suggest with flip. how many times have we seen cleary make an AMAZING ******* PLAY where flip just happened to get a point because the puck skipped of his skate and then cleary took it coast to coast this season? never. it's not as if he's on the ice just to tap the puck to gretsky and then watch him school all five opponent players and score. sure, everyone's going to scrape a point here and there from just touching the puck while their teammates actually make the play, but you make your own luck over the long term, and if flip is keeping up in points -- yeah, with not WAY worse linemates and not WAY less minutes, but with linemates who actually aren't as good as Z and with actually fewer minutes, though not way less -- you have to give him credit, because it's not going to just happen by chance this far into the season.

okay, let's everyone ignore this post on the count of three...

[beepbeep 3]

Here's something interesting. I just opened, sorted, compiled and saved the last 14 Red Wings games in Excel. Took me about 45 mins, which seems like a waste of time, but I was genuinely interested in testing your theory (since I too feel like Val's been scoring the most). It seemed like you were right when I started with today's game and worked back through the last few games.

Unfortunately your assertion did not hold. The top players in terms of points based completely on the games since Filppula returned are:

1. Lidstrom--14gm/2g/11a/13pts/+9 (that's right Lids has been a 0.93 points per game player over the last 14 games)

2. Datsyuk-- 14gm/3g/6a/9pts/+7

3. Filppula-- 14gm/2g/7a/9pts/+3

4. Bertuzzi-- 14gm/5g/3a/8pts/+2

5. Rafalski-- 14gm/2g/6a/8pts/+5

6. Helm-- 14gm/5g/2a/7pts/+1 (wtf?)

7. Cleary-- 9gm/3g/3a/6pts/+3

8. Zetterberg-- 10gm/3g/2a/5pts/+0 (note that he's a 0.5ppg... below Datsyuk's pace)

9. Miller-- 14gm/2g/3a/5pts/+2

10. Eaves-- 14gm/2g/2a/4pts/-8

The worst +/- values belonged to Eaves(-8), Meech(-5), then Abdelkader(-4). The worst forward pt total were those of Abdelakder (0) and Maltby (0).

Also note that Lidstrom is the only player scoring at about a point per game (he's good for 0.93 points per game over this period), with Cleary coming in second with a ppg value of 0.67 then Dats/Filppula next at 0.64.

Thus your assertion that Filppula has been the best forward is false any way you look at it:

--> Cleary has the best ppg of all forwards over this period

--> Datsyuk has superior numbers because he has one more goal than Filppula with the same point total

--> Datsyuk's +/- blows Val's out of the water and is second only to Lidstrom

--> Filppula is getting a ton of minutes including lots of PP time-- he hasn't played lower than 2nd line centre at any point since getting back.

Q.E.D.

And look where Zetterburg is @7.4M

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Nobody. While Datsyuk hasn't produced much lately, you don't just scratch ice time from your best/2nd best centerman when there's nobody else that could match his skill.

[Z and D for the C 712]

Well with D-men you have to expect a significant number of secondary assists compared to primary simply by virtue of where they usually are when they touch the puck. And to be honest it's silly to say secondary assists are less significant than primary. The primary passer doesn't necessarily make a tougher or more important pass compared to the secondary passer. While I'd say primary assists are, in general, more important, there's a reason why two people can get assists on a goal. And there's a reason why both passers get equal credit. The order of the pass doesn't really tell you the importance of that pass to the overall play, wouldn't you agree?

Oh absolutely. That's just what gcom thinks.

[Stiffy 0]

To be fair, Datsyuk isn't the only player that needs to do better.

I agree, but even though I am a huge Datsyuk fan, he is by far my favorite player to watch and has been since his rookie year, I am not satisfied with his performance and there is one crucial difference between him and every other player besides Hank and Lids - he is paid to be a top performer and a leader by example. Tough times, playing with less than ideal line mates... are factors but not excuses. He needs to take charge. Up until this year I would say nobody in the NHL has adapted and evolved their game year after year like Datsyuk. Time to take it to the next level.

P.S. Do not agree with the OP's idea that ice time should be given away.

Edited January 24, 2010 by Stiffy

[lfd250 1]

Screw it send the whole team to Hamilton. Leading point total on the team is playing bad. I wish everyones job was like this. Z and D for the C your performance has laged, the janitor will take over and if you can't pick it up we are trading you to Mcdonals.

[thedisappearer 291]

This thread is either LOL or on the short bus licking windows.

[gcom007 1,465]

Oh absolutely. That's just what gcom thinks.

When I make a point of noting secondary assists as weak, it's usually because the assist was not a consequential part of the play that lead to the goal. Whether Flip gets primary or secondary assists, many are not exactly thrilling to say the least. I'm not saying he's not capable of making good plays, but the guy picks up more than a few assists based on other people's playmaking efforts. I don't believe I raised that point (secondary assists) in this thread though anyways. I said when Flip gets points and Dats gets points, it's a totally different thing. Flip tends to benefit from other guys playmaking efforts while Dats is the one making the play. Again, I'm not saying this is the case for every point he gets at all, but he's had multiple assists since returning that were somewhat less than extraordinary.

Meanwhile, AGAIN, Datsyuk makes brilliant plays again and again night after night. He makes things happen out of nowhere. Flip absolutely does not do that in any way, shape or form like Datsyuk can. So there's no way in hell that it would be a good idea to "send a message" to Datsyuk. That's ridiculous. I barely believe you're watching the games if you really say Datsyuk's been as horrible as you do. He's not getting a ton of points, but to say he's not creating opportunities is ABSURD!!!

[bconnan 0]

I agree, but even though I am a huge Datsyuk fan, he is by far my favorite player to watch and has been since his rookie year, I am not satisfied with his performance and there is one crucial difference between him and every other player besides Hank and Lids - he is paid to be a top performer and a leader by example. Tough times, playing with less than ideal line mates... are factors but not excuses. He needs to take charge. Up until this year I would say nobody in the NHL has adapted and evolved their game year after year like Datsyuk. Time to take it to the next level.

P.S. Do not agree with the OP's idea that ice time should be given away.

Lidstrom is earning a million dollars more than Datsyuk this season. And Zetterberg would be making MORE than Datsyuk if he didn't sign an insanely long deal. The point being, Lidstrom isn't playing like his normal self and Zetterberg is on pace for 65 points.

To put all of the blame on Datsyuk is ridiculous.

[titanium2 867]

Anyone else tired of the "We're still getting chances, they're just not going in" line?

Whatever happened to "Your best players have to be your best players."?

[Theophany 110]

Lidstrom is earning a million dollars more than Datsyuk this season. And Zetterberg would be making MORE than Datsyuk if he didn't sign an insanely long deal. The point being, Lidstrom isn't playing like his normal self and Zetterberg is on pace for 65 points.

To put all of the blame on Datsyuk is ridiculous.

7.45 - 6.7 != 1. 7.45 - 6.7 = 0.75.

Lidstrom can make it to the 50 point plateau (considering he's almost a PPG player recently and we have 31 games left), and he's still playing stellar defense; easily the best on the team. I'd say he's the only one getting paid more than $5m that's living up to anywhere close to his potential, especially considering his age.

[bconnan 0]

7.45 - 6.7 != 1. 7.45 - 6.7 = 0.75.

Lidstrom can make it to the 50 point plateau (considering he's almost a PPG player recently and we have 31 games left), and he's still playing stellar defense; easily the best on the team. I'd say he's the only one getting paid more than $5m that's living up to anywhere close to his potential, especially considering his age.

$250,000 makes up for the fact that hes having a horrendous season?

"Steller defense" isn't going to win games. Lidstrom is being paid to be effective at both ends of the ice, consistently. The key word being consistency, not occasionally.

Defensive defenseman do not get paid $7.5 million per season.

[gcom007 1,465]

Lidstrom is earning a million dollars more than Datsyuk this season. And Zetterberg would be making MORE than Datsyuk if he didn't sign an insanely long deal. The point being, Lidstrom isn't playing like his normal self and Zetterberg is on pace for 65 points.

To put all of the blame on Datsyuk is ridiculous.

Adding to this, when you really look at Z's deal, you really have to say that he's making more than Datsyuk. He's making $7.5-7.75 million 7 years of the deal, $7.4 million this year, $7 million in the 9th year, and then it trails off after that to those low years which brings the cap hit way down. For all intents and purposes, Z's getting paid Lidstrom money which is more than Datsyuk. I'm not saying that to string Z up (I think he's hurting more than he's let on), but I'm just saying...

I think Lidstrom's been far better than most give him credit for and just like the last few seasons, I think he'll have a much stronger second half offensively. Again, like Drake clearly laid out, he's leading our team offensively right now for the last 10 or so games.

Again, I think Z's probably hurting more than any of us know. Something is not right and I don't think it has anything to do with desire or effort.

Same goes for Dats. While I think it's less likely that he's dealing with injury, I don't think it's impossible either. But in any event, he's going through Bertuzzi's early-season issues. He's doing a lot of things right, getting chances and creating chances, but the puck's just not going into the net as often as he'd like. If he keeps working, that'll turn around quick and he'll be on fire.

Like many have said, this finger-pointing is really getting silly.

[gcom007 1,465]

Anyone else tired of the "We're still getting chances, they're just not going in" line?

Whatever happened to "Your best players have to be your best players."?

They still are our best players.

And let me guess, you probably thought Bert sucked for the first part of the season? Am I right? Just wondering...

Being tired of it but realizing it's the cruel reality are two different things. When you're doing a lot of things right and creating chances, you can't punish guys for not getting the breaks. That's just silly. You keep them at it and keep them working because you know that if you do that, good things will eventually happen.

[bconnan 0]

I find it amusing because even when Datsyuk isn't scoring, his defensive play is still above Zetterberg's. When Zetterberg isn't scoring, you could go all night without hearing his name. Datsyuk is stripping the puck 4-5 times a game, breaking up plays in his own end and winning crucial faceoffs.

All Datsyuk needs is for players like Zetterberg for example, to actually start scoring. Put Adam Oates on a team full of third liners with hands of stone and see how well he produces..

[gcom007 1,465]

$250,000 makes up for the fact that hes having a horrendous season?

"Steller defense" isn't going to win games. Lidstrom is being paid to be effective at both ends of the ice, consistently. The key word being consistency, not occasionally.

Defensive defenseman do not get paid $7.5 million per season.

Horrendous? Really? Can you really say that? I don't think so. "Sub par offensively thus far" is about as cruel as it needs to get. And that's pushing it. He's a second half guy, it's already started. This isn't so new, just more amplified.

But that can happen when you lose a ton of goal-scoring helpers in the off-season and then a bevy of other guys to injury for half the year...

[Theophany 110]

$250,000 makes up for the fact that hes having a horrendous season?

"Steller defense" isn't going to win games. Lidstrom is being paid to be effective at both ends of the ice, consistently. The key word being consistency, not occasionally.

Defensive defenseman do not get paid $7.5 million per season.

Yeah dude, you're right! Check the following names, please; all are scoring roughly 40-60 points a season and get paid well over $6m:

Bouwmeester, Pronger, Niedermayer, Phaneuf, Campbell (LOL), etc.

Lidstrom can easily get to 40 points this season, putting him in their company. He's also much more solid in all of his defensive play.

Edit: just because Lidstrom isn't going to pound out 80 points this season doesn't mean he's terrible. He's going to take a discount next year if he hangs around (obviously), so calm the hell down. He's still the best in the league, defensively, and he's right up there with the guys I named, offensively.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Theophany