Don't expect much from the Wings during Trade Deadline

[up2here 41]

In this dream land where the Thrashers would accept this deal why not do what makes more sense and deal Williams for Afinoganov?

Dude, think about it, if the Wings are only on the hook for a 1/4 of Kozlov's salary that means that whoever goes the other way only a quarter of his salary comes off the Wing's books. When you're pressed up against the cap Salary In = Salary Out. Think it through.

To get Kozlo, which in my opinion would be a HUGE waste, Detroit would have to ship $3.66M out to get his $3.66M in. No ifs, ands or buts.

I'm not sure Kozlov is the answer either but because the salary numbers are much smaller now the trade does become possible. If the Wings have a couple hundred thousand to play with ( Im not sure what the actual cap number is) then moving someone like Jason Williams and Brett Lebda might get it done cap wise.

Edited March 2, 2010 by UP2HERE

[mmamolo 287]

Holland was GM starting in 1998. The Cup in 1997 was under Bowman's watch.

In 1998, it was still the Bowman team. Holland added Dmitri Mironov and Jamie Macoun. Nice, but not much credit for doing it with someone else's team.

In 2002, he added some $20 mill in salary with Hull, Robitaille, Hasek, Olausson....not taking away that accomplishment, but adding that talent was not something each team could do--not exactly forcing him to make tough decisions.

In 2008, that was really the year you could argue he was THE guy in assembling the team-- but many players-- Holmstrom, Samuelsson, Lidstrom, Franzen, Zetterberg, Datsyuk-- were Hakan Andersson finds that Holland drafted/signed. He did add Brad Stuart, and that was a good move.

To say that it's "all Holland" or that people shouldn't question him is silly. He's not a god. He's the GM of a team which has been very good for a long time-- he didn't assemble it, he's just (tried to) maintain it, and this year, it's obvious that he's not perfect.

Well, it is true that 97 was bowman's team but the point was more to imply that ppl are never happy more than to insinuate that the team was Holland's. Although, if I'm not mistaken Holland was assistant GM.

The point wasn't even to say that Holland hasnt made any mistakes either. I definitely wasnt a fan of adding McCoun or Gill or Clarke or Cross and so on but we can't limit how we grade him as a GM to the trades he makes. A lot of the contracts he's signed players to (pre-cap world, post-cap world, UFA, pending UFA, re-signing etc) have been some of the msot competitive in the league (Hossa, Zetterberg, Franzen to name some of the more recent). His ability to retain talent has been a major component in keeping this team competitive for so long.

Now, I'm not giving him and only him all the credit in the world but what I am saying is that a lot of ppl on this board should learn to appreciate what we have been lucky enough to live through as a Wings fan.

Again, I'm not saying Holland is a god but it pisses me off when ppl go the opposite direction and completely rip him too. I just think credit should be given where credit is due. He is one of the top GMs in the game today. Is he the best ever? No probably not but he is definitely a very good GM and ONE of the reasons the Red Wings franchise is as good as they are.

[mmamolo 287]

I'm not sure Kozlov is the answer either but because the salary numbers are much smaller now the trade does become possible. If the Wings have a couple hundred thousand to play with ( Im not sure what the actual cap number is) then moving someone like Jason Williams and Brett Lebda might get it done cap wise.

It's true that at this juncture of the season salaries become prorated but you have to remember that that is a two way street. Salary coming to Detroit will be pro-rated but salary leaving Detroit will be pro-rated as well. As far as I know the Wings have ZERO room left under the cap. Now, I could be wrong about that and if I am then what I'm about to say can be ignored. However, if I am right and they have zero room then salary in must equal salary out.

But you're right, if they had say 200k in room that would equate to roughly 800k season long cap space coming in since there is roughly 1/4 of a season remaining.

An easy way to look at it is that the deadline occurs at the 3/4 mark of the year. So any player being moved has 1/4 left of their salary to be paid. Whatever full season long cap space a team has can thus be multiplied by 4 to figure out what full year salary player can be brought in.

FOr example if Team A had $1M cap space they could afford to bring in a $4M player without deducting a roster player.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Agreed.

And lets not forget it was Holland that signed Cujo, and then allowing Hasek back onto the team instead of trading away his rights...That whole mess was Holland's fault.

Holland is a great GM, but he's certainly not perfect.

Cujo was the only good player on the Wings roster when he was here.

The entire debacle dealt with coaching and management when he WAS here.

Also Hasek helped the Wings in 08 by splitting time with Osgood during the regular season. He also wasn't terrible in the 07 playoffs either.

[mmamolo 287]

Anyways, we should get this thread back on topic which is the Wings at this Trade Deadline.

Aside from the bogus Eklund Ponikarovsky B.S I personally would like to see the Wings make a run for Afinoganov. At 800k I think he could fit perfectly on our third line.

Obviously it would depend what it would take to get him out of Atlanta and it would depend on if Atlanta is still pushing for the playoffs.

What would you guys offer up for Afinoganov? ANything? Would you want him here?

What about a 3rd line of Miller - Filppula - Afinoganov?

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

Anyways, we should get this thread back on topic which is the Wings at this Trade Deadline.

Aside from the bogus Eklund Ponikarovsky B.S I personally would like to see the Wings make a run for Afinoganov. At 800k I think he could fit perfectly on our third line.

Obviously it would depend what it would take to get him out of Atlanta and it would depend on if Atlanta is still pushing for the playoffs.

What would you guys offer up for Afinoganov? ANything? Would you want him here?

What about a 3rd line of Miller - Filppula - Afinoganov?

I like the sound of that line.

[mmamolo 287]

I like the sound of that line.

Would you prefer to see Jason Williams + pick or prospect sent to Atlanta for Afinoganov so that we could have Miller - Filppula - Afinoganov as our 3rd and then have May brought back up as our 13th forward?

Or would you rather see Williams + Lebda + pick + prospect sent to Toronto for Ponikarovsky and then have our second lines be something like Franzen - Datsyuk - Holmstrom, Bertuzzi - Zetterberg - Ponikarovsky, Miller - Filppula - Cleary?

Obviously this is assuming Waddel and Burke would go for these trades

[RedWingAbner 13]

I think the more likely pickup is Afinogenov. GMs always have favorite trade partners (see the Rangers-Coyotes love affair) and Waddell is a former Wings employee. Not that he'll gift him to us, but I think it's possible to get him.

Lebda + 2nd for Afinogenov? Deal.

[mmamolo 287]

I think the more likely pickup is Afinogenov. GMs always have favorite trade partners (see the Rangers-Coyotes love affair) and Waddell is a former Wings employee. Not that he'll gift him to us, but I think it's possible to get him.

Lebda + 2nd for Afinogenov? Deal.

As far as I know, cap wise it's not enough. Lebda ($650k) for Afinoganov ($800k)

But ya I think Afinoganov is the more logical move

[up2here 41]

I wouldnt mind Afinogenov coming either and he's much cheaper than Kozlov. Again it depends on how exactly close the Wings are to the cap. Using the formula I got from NHL.com:

800,000 (Afinogenov salary) / 187 (Days in the season) X 41(Days left in the season)= 175,000

Use the same formula for Lebda going out:

650,000/187 X 41 = 143,000

Now were only talking about 30,000 bucks at this point.

[king_malice 17]

I believe the Wings won't make some Blockbuster deal maybe a small one though. I do recall Ken Holland saying last season during free agency they wouldn't make a big splash then next thing we have Hossa. Same as Calgary they said they weren't after Bouwmeester then the got him, then this year they weren't looking to make moves yet and then Phanuef,jokenin are both gone in 2 days i think most GMs just say these things to keep the rumors and media quiet.

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

Would you prefer to see Jason Williams + pick or prospect sent to Atlanta for Afinoganov so that we could have Miller - Filppula - Afinoganov as our 3rd and then have May brought back up as our 13th forward?

Or would you rather see Williams + Lebda + pick + prospect sent to Toronto for Ponikarovsky and then have our second lines be something like Franzen - Datsyuk - Holmstrom, Bertuzzi - Zetterberg - Ponikarovsky, Miller - Filppula - Cleary?

Obviously this is assuming Waddel and Burke would go for these trades

For whatever reason, I don't like the idea of getting rid of Williams just yet. I know he's softer than a pillow, but he still has a good shot and is useful on the PP and in the shootout. When he's on his game, he can put up 50 points a year as he did a few years back with Detroit.

[mmamolo 287]

For whatever reason, I don't like the idea of getting rid of Williams just yet. I know he's softer than a pillow, but he still has a good shot and is useful on the PP and in the shootout. When he's on his game, he can put up 50 points a year as he did a few years back with Detroit.

I hear you....but compared to the seasons that Afinoganov (60GP 19G2 7A 46P) and Ponikarovsky (61 GP 19G 22A 41P) are having would you really rather keep Williams?

Don't get me wrong, I wouldnt be too pumped to move a pick but player for player in my mind there's no question

[king_malice 17]

I hear you....but compared to the seasons that Afinoganov (60GP 19G2 7A 46P) and Ponikarovsky (61 GP 19G 22A 41P) are having would you really rather keep Williams?

Don't get me wrong, I wouldnt be too pumped to move a pick but player for player in my mind there's no question

The rumors are the Leafs want a 2nd round pick for Poni looks like they are trying to make cap space for the off-season and we don't have the space to add Poni's contract without moving someone

[mmamolo 287]

The rumors are the Leafs want a 2nd round pick for Poni looks like they are trying to make cap space for the off-season and we don't have the space to add Poni's contract without moving someone

Not trying to be rude but that's obvious. We'd have to move Williams + Lebda + 2nd + prospect to make it happen.

Not sure if I'd make that move but that'd be what it would take from Burke's end I would think

[up2here 41]

Hopefully someone can come up with the Wings actual current cap number. But for arguments sake $300,000 would equal a player making about 1.4 million.

Edited March 2, 2010 by UP2HERE

[mmamolo 287]

Hopefully someone can come up with the Wings actual current cap number. But for arguments sake $300,000 would equal a player making about 1.4 million.

According to Capgeek.com if a trade goes down on March 3 (deadline day) there are 40 days left to be applied to a players salary of the year's total applicable days (193) in a season.

Therefore, 40/193=20.725%

So I would think 300k would equal closer to $1.5M but ya it's probably somewhere in between $1.4-$1.5M

[up2here 41]

Your numbers are probably right. I was using a 2009 formula and assuming it would be close.

[ShanahanMan 473]

Holland was GM starting in 1998. The Cup in 1997 was under Bowman's watch.

In 1998, it was still the Bowman team. Holland added Dmitri Mironov and Jamie Macoun. Nice, but not much credit for doing it with someone else's team.

In 2002, he added some $20 mill in salary with Hull, Robitaille, Hasek, Olausson....not taking away that accomplishment, but adding that talent was not something each team could do--not exactly forcing him to make tough decisions.

In 2008, that was really the year you could argue he was THE guy in assembling the team-- but many players-- Holmstrom, Samuelsson, Lidstrom, Franzen, Zetterberg, Datsyuk-- were Hakan Andersson finds that Holland drafted/signed. He did add Brad Stuart, and that was a good move.

To say that it's "all Holland" or that people shouldn't question him is silly. He's not a god. He's the GM of a team which has been very good for a long time-- he didn't assemble it, he's just (tried to) maintain it, and this year, it's obvious that he's not perfect.

Exactly. Up until very recently Holland simply maintained a great team that was already in place for him.

Don't get me wrong, he's a great GM, but that doesn't change the fact that he sits back quite often. We could totally use another winger and what about our log jam of defense now (Ericsson/Lebda/Meech all fighting for spots). Moves CAN be made. I never said I wanted a trade just for a trade, but we DO have some assets that can be moved which means there ARE possibilities.

Jesus, some people here only focus on the good Holland does and refuse to acknowledge any bad. Dave Lewis? Cory Cross? Quincey?

The fact is, if things can be done to help improve the team, they should.

[mmamolo 287]

Exactly. Up until very recently Holland simply maintained a great team that was already in place for him.

Don't get me wrong, he's a great GM, but that doesn't change the fact that he sits back quite often. We could totally use another winger and what about our log jam of defense now (Ericsson/Lebda/Meech all fighting for spots). Moves CAN be made. I never said I wanted a trade just for a trade, but we DO have some assets that can be moved which means there ARE possibilities.

Jesus, some people here only focus on the good Holland does and refuse to acknowledge any bad. Dave Lewis? Cory Cross? Quincey?

The fact is, if things can be done to help improve the team, they should.

I think we're saying somethign similar here because in my post I flat out said I have not and am not saying Holland is god. The same way you are saying that you don't like how ppl only focus on the good that Holland does I don't like that some ppl only focus on the bad that Holland does. I do think Holland has made some mistakes as I outlined in a previous post. I even mentioned Cory Cross by name. All I was saying was that he doesn't deserve the slack some ppl give him.

He is not god but he's still one of the best GMs in the game. Sometimes the best move to make is not making any move at all.

That being said, I am with you, with our current situation I do think moving one of assets on the blueline for a winger makes sense. If it were me I would try to package Meech or Lebda with a pick and possibly even Williams for a winger. I would be targeting Afinoganov or Ponikarovsky

[stormboy 47]

We had the best team in the league on paper last season, and we had no cap space for anything. The year before that, he played it safe... and we won the Cup.

done. people want blockbuster moves so that they can get hope that so-and-so will turn things around for the organization. we have all the skill we need. it's just a matter of staying healthy and, more importantly, getting the best out of our players.

datsyuk-zetterberg-filppula-helm is IMO one of the best four lines of centers in the NHL. sure, we have some weak or inconsistent wingers...but even bert and willy and cleary can produce at times. god knows franzen and homer can crank out good numbers when hot. draper's still got some speed, and miller and eaves have proven to be hard workers who at least can cause some trouble and at most can score some very timely goals. people want to get all bent out of shape when some wet dream doesn't come true at the deadline. but there's a reason we have gone to the playoffs for 19 straight years, and part of that is that we haven't consistently traded away picks and prospects for rental players. we won't do it this year, and i believe we'll still make the playoffs.

in kenny we trust. and really, who would you rather have? who has had more success of late?

And if Holland does something to shake things up and it comes back to bite us in the ass for several years, then everyone will be calling for his head.

word. i mean, i remember that one time where mattias scored two goals in his first game with i think the panthers (not checking right now...too lazy) and everyone was all "we got an injured bertuzzi for HIM!?!?!?" and then he hasn't done much since. holland was trying to do something to spark the team...but it was ultimately a low-risk/low-gain deal. now, if we were to trade a good roster player, some blue-chip prospects and our best picks for the next couple of years just to TRY to get into the playoffs this year, and then...well, even if we made it, but got booted in the first round (which is what will probably happen anyway) people would be pissed that we gave up those players and didn't win a cup.

damned if you do, damned if you don't. but you also make a good salary, so i guess it's not that bad to be a GM.

[Guest Crymson]

word. i mean, i remember that one time where mattias scored two goals in his first game with i think the panthers (not checking right now...too lazy) and everyone was all "we got an injured bertuzzi for HIM!?!?!?" and then he hasn't done much since. holland was trying to do something to spark the team...but it was ultimately a low-risk/low-gain deal. now, if we were to trade a good roster player, some blue-chip prospects and our best picks for the next couple of years just to TRY to get into the playoffs this year, and then...well, even if we made it, but got booted in the first round (which is what will probably happen anyway) people would be pissed that we gave up those players and didn't win a cup.

damned if you do, damned if you don't. but you also make a good salary, so i guess it's not that bad to be a GM.

Regrettably, man people who post on here in favor of trades aren't really looking beyond the next month and aren't looking beyond the consequences that go along with exchanging player x for player y.

Edited March 2, 2010 by Crymson

[uk_redwing 495]

Trading players isn't like pressing a series of buttons in NHL 10.

Am I the only one getting bored of people saying this?

[up2here 41]

Am I the only one getting bored of people saying this?

No, i am bored of it too. I am also sick of the so-called word 'pwned'.

[mmamolo 287]

Regrettably, man people who post on here in favor of trades aren't really looking beyond the next month and aren't looking beyond the consequences that go along with exchanging player x for player y.

It's a love/hate thing. They'll love you one second and hate you the next depending on what you do. For everyone screaming for him to make a move if he were to make a movie and mortgage part of future and he did it they'd lvoe him for the excitement today. Then if we got bounced in the first round they'd turn on him for mortgaging our future and hate him come May.

Same thing works backwards. They'd hate him for not making a move and being boring today but if we went all the way and won the cup they'd love him in June for being boring in March.