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ShanahanMan

Don't expect much from the Wings during Trade Deadline

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Wings trade Kris Newbury to NYR for Jordan Owens

Name: Jordan Owens

Number: 46

Pos.: F

Shoots: L

Height: 6-0

Weight: 189

Birthdate: 1986-05-01

Birthplace: Toronto, ON

GP G A PTS +/- SOG PIM

2009-10 Regular Season Hartford Wolf Pack 50 6 13 19 8 83 53

2008-09 Regular Season Hartford Wolf Pack 67 12 25 37 17 115 66

2007-08 Regular Season Hartford Wolf Pack 41 7 7 14 5 49 44

Edited by king_malice

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It's not even that Jason Williams was "bad"... yes, he was injured. But there WERE better options out there that I wish Holland would have actively pursued. Paying Afinogenov 1.5 instead of his 800K couldn't have landed him here instead of in Atlanta?

I just wish he'd be a bit more aggressive sometimes.

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It's not even that Jason Williams was "bad"... yes, he was injured. But there WERE better options out there that I wish Holland would have actively pursued. Paying Afinogenov 1.5 instead of his 800K couldn't have landed him here instead of in Atlanta?

I just wish he'd be a bit more aggressive sometimes.

Afinogenov had an absolutely hideous season in '08-'09; he had been steadily declining over the past few seasons, and his penchant for low-effort play was well-known.

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I purpose the following argument in response to your opinion regarding Ken Holland -

As the General Manager of the Detroit Red Wings, Ken Holland is ultimately responsible for the acquisition and dismissal of hockey related personnel (Players, Coaches, Scouts, Trainers, etc), negotiation of contracts (rights, salary, financial position of the team against the cap), and ultimately, the success of the team (how the collected pool of players perform on the ice).

I think that is all generally agreed upon as the key responsibilities of Ken Holland. Now, obviously he cannot be in all those places as once so he has various staff to direct, operate, and execute his strategic vision. This is an organization, and as in any organization (bank, car dealership, a military structure, the President of the United States) there is a associated hierarchy. Ken Holland would be the supposed "General" or "CEO" or whatever leadership position there is. As with all positions like this, he develops an strategic plan and then tasks his directors to create operational plans to encourage the achievement of these objectives.

Now, a responsible leader will provide an achievable plan and rely upon the staff that he has under to lend their particular skill and their opinions to make decisions. It becomes and culmination of various skills, intelligence, and experiences that drive a decision. Thus it is imperative that a General Manager hire and place the correct people who will be fueling his decisions. So, the coach (and his subsequent staff), the scouts, and all the personnel that reside with the Grand Rapids Griffins are his decision to make.

So - to say Holland is a failure and that he is saved by Andersson isn't entirely correct as Holland was the directly responsible for hiring Andersson to begin with. If Holland had chosen someone else who was not as good, he wouldn't have the talents that he does. So, it would only seem fair that Holland should be rewarded for hiring Andersson, as for what Hakan is doing is exactly why Holland picked him.

Furthermore, from Hakan Andersson, Director of European Scouting:

"Working under Kenny is very good for a number of reasons. He is a former scout (probably the best one I have met, by the way), so he understands where we are coming from with regards to keeping draft picks, projecting a player's potential, etc. He also believes in his people and gives us all the tools to succeed. He is easy to talk to about anything: new ideas, different approaches to things, etc. He also seems to be the best GM in the league when it comes to running an NHL team, which makes it very nice just to be on board for this ride. These days I work a lot more with Jim Nill and Joe McDonnell, both of them are also great to work with, this also shows how this organization is built with people who think the same and are all quality people."

As for the role of the Scout versus the General Manager - from an NHL Network coverage special on Draft decisions, basically the leadership of an organization (primarily GM and Coach) determine the needs of the team going forward and what types of players they need to target. After that feedback from the Coach, the Scouting teams will submit their reports regarding players that they believe have the potential to fulfill the needs of the team. Collectively, the GM directs a round table on the overall potential, the necessary steps to develop that player to reach that potential, and what other organizations might be pursing that individual. After all of that, the front office slots that player into an approximate round in which to select that player based upon those factors to maximize fair market value.

If Hakan Andersson had been so convinced that Pavel Datsyuk and Henrik Zetterberg were to be premier stars in this league, Andersson would have given a report to Holland to select them immediately and not wait as long as he did to do so. So, to say that Andersson knew they were to be stars and made a savvy choice and saved Holland from a bad decision, he would have suggested that he pick them earlier as not to miss out on such great prospects.

In fact, the Red Wings select players who are purposefully underdeveloped on the outside chance that given enough time and tutelage, that they will develop into a servicable player. In the case of Datsyuk and Zetterberg - the possessed key attributes that the Red Wings covet (intelligent play, defensive commitment, strong skating, and passing acumen) and were overlooked by other organizations because they were "undersized". Neither were even considered as potential NHL players when they were selected and in the case of Datsyuk had been passed over in two prior drafts.

Hakan didn't save Holland, the Red Wings stuck to an organizational philosophy and ended up with two excellent players in return. The person responsible for the "Red Wings" system is again - Ken Holland. To take time on younger, unproven players with core skills that they desire, and take time to develop them under careful eye is exactly what Ken Holland has championed - he is the architect of the current Red Wings system, without it - I doubt that Pavel and Henrik would be the players that they are.

The drafting and development of prospects is just as much a credit to Holland as it is his scouts, minor league positional coaches, and blind luck. All can take some of the responsibility of the players that the Wings have produced and can take similar blame for the players that failed to develop.

The Jason Williams signing - yes, in hindsight he has not produced in the manner that they wanted but from the offseason it made some financial sense. After the lost of free agents in the Summer of 2008, the Red Wings needed to add an additional winger who would be primarily a third or fourth line player. Holland, (and Babcock as he has influence on who is signed), needed to add a cheap winger who had upside potential to play. Williams was a RW/C who had demonstrated some offensive skills (a career 0.54 points a game in the NHL = 82gp, 45p), and the added benefit of a familiarity with the Red Wings system. In addition, his highest scoring year (58p) came while wearing the Winged Wheel. So if you wanted to add another winger, why not select a player who is in his "prime" career year at a relatively low salary who is familiar with your system and has the potential to produce 50+ points in a full season as a third line player?

Is this not the exact same logic that the Red Wings used to sign Todd Bertuzzi?

Granted, I'm the first to agree that he has not produced like originally hoped for and has not filled the empty gap that Samuelsson has left. However injuries have slowed him down in a relatively weak offensive year as a whole for the Red Wings. Williams is a stop gap and his salary for his historical production is not outrageous. In fact, there are plenty of players in a similar salary range (1,200,000 - 1,800,000) who are much worse for the dollar per career point.

As for "Holland wasted the $1.5M that he could have used to trade for a $5.0M player at the trade deadline."....Wait, what?

Under the current CBA - when a player is traded, his cap hit does not change. So - a $5M dollar hit is still a $5M dollar hit regardless on where we are in the season. The Detroit Organization is only responsible for the remaining % of the contract that is due (in this season, it would be roughly 24%) - so the Red Wings would pay the $5M dollar player exactly $1.2M for the rest of the season, but he would still count as $5M total against the cap. So having Williams is not costing the Wings the opportunity to land a big name free agent - if we chose not to sign him, and kept the $1.5M in space, we could afford exactly that - a $1.5M dollar player. In this particular season - excluding rookie contracts and players that teams would refuse to trade - could be translated into: Jere Letihen and his 24p.

Ken Holland has instilled a core philosophy alongside many dedicated and quality staff members. He has seemlessly transitioned from uncapped to hard cap and succeeded in both environments. The Red Wings are not saddled with horribly unbalanced and lengthy contracts (i.e. $8M/year for Chris Drury) and have retained key players at below market prices. Really the one aspect of all of this is his ability to secure star talent at affordable rates (Zetterburg $7M, Datsyuk $6.5M, Kronwall $4M, Franzen $4M) versus monstrous contracts of other stars (the list is endless but specifically Kariya $6M, Vanik $7.1M).

He carefully selects key role players that are often overlooked or misused by other organizations (Cleary, Bertuzzi, Miller, Eaves) and provides them an opportunity to succeed in the right system (at a cheap price). He has balanced our cap space with careful skill so we don't end up with too many players and not enough cap room and the discipline to not overpay for UFA who don't want to sacrifice for the greater good of the team (ignoring Hossa which would have caused the Red Wings to sacrifice long term youthful prospects like Chicago will be forced to do after this season). He has hired and directs a scouting program that is the envy of NHL organizations and relies on a robust and established farm system and player development program.

Ken Holland has earned every ounce of praise he has received. Player savvy, respected by the NHL community, financially disciplined, and if nothing else - 4 Time Stanley Cup winner. He has exceed well above the "average" of any GM out there.

The Red Wings are a fantastic organization - a model franchise - and I count myself fortunate to be a fan of theirs. I respect all the work that the players and the owners have put forward to produce the wonderful success over these last two decades. But I never forget, at the heart of all of this is an amazing and dedicated Front Office that Ken Holland has built. To call him overrated and accuse him of coasting on the accomplishments of others is to ignore the actual scope of his responsibilities as GM and to disregard the overall impact that he has had on this organization.

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It's not even that Jason Williams was "bad"... yes, he was injured. But there WERE better options out there that I wish Holland would have actively pursued. Paying Afinogenov 1.5 instead of his 800K couldn't have landed him here instead of in Atlanta?

I just wish he'd be a bit more aggressive sometimes.

Ok stop using Afinogenov as an example because he was a horrible free agent to pick up. Horrible. The previous two years he played 56 and 48 games and scored 28 and 20 points respectively. That is 16 goals between those two seasons. (Williams had 17 in 08-09 playing for the Thrashers and Bluejackets)

He was not a good choice before the season started, and it amazes me he is brought up as someone who Holland should have pursued.

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Now that Maltby is on LTIR, we have roughly (according to NHL numbers) 2.5 mil in cap space. We give up Abs and Lebda, thats about 275,000 and 200,000 (from 850,000 and 710,000 contracts) and would only be paying about 325,000 more to have had Ponikarovsky. Is it that hard?

Do we want Ponikarovsky for a defenseman and a promising prospect? Especially when it is possible that the Wings won't make the playoffs this year?

Does anyone even want Lebda? Kenny could have offered him up and gotten no deal from Toronto.

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Good job by Holland for staying pat. I didn't see a reason to make a move either. I heard Holland wanted someone to replace Maltby, but I think just call up Abdelkader.

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I remember that when Holland made no deals at the deadline in 2008, Dabura---one of the more trollish members we had back then---threw a fit, said he was sick of it all, and vowed that he was done with these forums (presumably because of frustration with the team).

Unfortunately, he ended up crawling back after the Wings won the Cup. In any event, hopefully the team will lose other such "fans" after this deadline.

Brad Stuart...? He was a great pickup, played very well with Kronwall.

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...Regarding cheap forwards--um, maybe they wouldn't be necessary if we didn't throw $1.5 million at guys like Jason Williams? Maybe we could add a guy with a higher salary? Ahh.

...

Wrong.

To date, the Wings have claimed $1,883,745 in LTI Exemption. More than Williams' full year salary. Even if he had not been signed, we would STILL NOT have any cap space.

Williams was brought in to be a right-handed shot on the 2nd PP unit. Fairly cheap, and familiar with the system (and with all the other new faces, that was certainly a big factor). Who else would have fit that role?

As far as making any moves this year, I've said before that it wouldn't be wise. Our options are too limited this year. It is incredibly unlikely that we could bring in anyone who would make any difference. If we have any hope this season, it rests completely on Pav, Hank, Nick, and Rafi being better (possibly Osgood too), and on the rest of the players staying healthy. This team is already good enough on paper to win it all. Making lateral moves on paper in hopes that they translate to improvement on the ice isn't the best strategy.

Wait until next summer when our cap situation should be better. We'll have more options, and can likely add pieces without having to subtract anything, or if we do move someone, we can get better players in return.

Also, I don't think you can criticize Holland for standing pat or letting players walk this past year. Getting Hank and Mule on long term, cap-friendly, deals was big. Sure, Hank hasn't been great, and Franzen got hurt... I'll bet none of you expected that either.

Nor do I think anyone would have predicted in late June / early July that Huds would jump to the KHL or that Lilja would take so long to recover.

So basically, Holland 'let' Kopy, Sammy, and Hossa go. Sammy @ 2.5 or Willy @ 1.5? If you were asked in July which was better, I'm sure at least some of you would have picked Willy. (Most would likely say 'neither', but whatever...)

That leaves Hossa and Kopy. And who gives a flying F about Kopy, so...Hossa.

Got $5.275 from Chicago on a 12! year deal. Would it have been smart for the Wings to not only have 3 long term deals like that, but also have that much commited when we also have to think about replacing Lidstrom and probably Rafalski in the next few years?

Even squeezing that 5.275 in would have been difficult (hell, Hudler's 2.5 would have been rough), but what would it have cost to get Hossa on say a 4-6 year deal? His average over the first 7 years is $7.9. Even at only around $6-6.5 would be almost impossible, and the other players we'd have had to downgrade to fit that in could very easily have resulted in an even worse team.

And we were adding Helm, Leino, and Ericsson. Some people had to move. I'm sure most of you were salivating in the offseason about the prospect of those 3 joining the team full time. So it's not really fair to criticize now in hindsight.

None of you can tell the future either, so stop acting like you would have done any better.

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