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egroen

Lidstrom selected as 2nd Team All Star

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Lidstrom was 4th in voting for the Norris and was selected as a 2nd Team All-Star -- making it 11 years he has made the post-season All-Star Team, which is an incredible accomplishment.

That ties him with Doug Harvey, but still well behind Ray Bourque with an amazing 19.

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Soon to be 12th next year and we will see on the Norris nominations as I feel he may just not be looked at as much as in the past. But with the Perfect Human there really is no telling.

Edited by HankthaTank

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There were some serious flaws with the All-Star teams.

I would have ranked the top five at each position as follows (ten for defense):

C:

H.Sedin

Zetterberg

Crosby

Datsyuk

Kopitar

RW:

Gaborik

St. Louis

Heatley

Alfredsson

Iginla

LW:

Ovechkin

D.Sedin

Marleau

Kovalchuk

Parise

D:

Keith

Lidstrom

Doughty

Pronger

Weber

Chara

Streit

Kubina

Pitkanen

Suter

G:

Ryan Miller

Tomas Vokoun

Evgeni Nabokov

Henrik Lundqvist

Ilya Bryzgalov

That's seven out of twelve selections I disagree with, two I GREATLY disagree with (Kane and Green). As far as simply players selected, it's 4 I disagree with, 2 of 4 I greatly disagree with (Kane and Green)

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There were some serious flaws with the All-Star teams.

I would have ranked the top five at each position as follows (ten for defense):

C:

H.Sedin

Zetterberg

Crosby

Datsyuk

Kopitar

RW:

Gaborik

St. Louis

Heatley

Alfredsson

Iginla

LW:

Ovechkin

D.Sedin

Marleau

Kovalchuk

Parise

D:

Keith

Lidstrom

Doughty

Pronger

Weber

Chara

Streit

Kubina

Pitkanen

Suter

G:

Ryan Miller

Tomas Vokoun

Evgeni Nabokov

Henrik Lundqvist

Ilya Bryzgalov

That's seven out of twelve selections I disagree with, two I GREATLY disagree with (Kane and Green). As far as simply players selected, it's 4 I disagree with, 2 of 4 I greatly disagree with (Kane and Green)

No Tuukkamania???

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There were some serious flaws with the All-Star teams.

...

D:

Keith

Lidstrom

Doughty

Pronger

Weber

Chara

Streit

Kubina

Pitkanen

Suter

...

Really? Streit, Kubina, Pitkanen, and Suter all ahead of Green? And Boyle? Hell, Christian Erhoff had a better season than any of them.

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Really? Streit, Kubina, Pitkanen, and Suter all ahead of Green? And Boyle? Hell, Christian Ehrhoff had a better season than any of them.

Ehrhoff was a close cut on my top ten. But his minor offensive advantage over Kubina and Suter doesn't makeup for their advantage defensively and physically. Streit and Pitkanen also actually outperformed Ehrhoff offensively.

As far as Boyle v. Ehrhoff, Boyle had an equal if not better defensive season than Ehrhoff also, and was much better offensively.

Green had a very good season offensively again, but his defense is still a joke. He plays worse defensively than Brett Lebda. Defense is important too BTW. Plus/minus is not a measure of defense. If two players play identical shifts for five games with identical ability each shift against the same players, but one team has much worse teammates, one player will end up with a lower, possibly MUCH lower, plus-minus. Plus/minus is a player stat that is affected by teammates to a great degree. Honestly, I would rank Green behind Lidstrom, Kronwall, and Rafalski. He's a speedy, highly skilled playmaker with a good shot who ended up playing as the top offensive defenseman for a team with great offensive forwards.

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...Green had a very good season offensively again, but his defense is still a joke. He plays worse defensively than Brett Lebda. Defense is important too BTW. ...

Yeah, defense is important, but Green isn't nearly as deficient as you say. Comparing him to Lebda is retarded. That makes it fairly obvious that you personally dislike him as a player, and are most likely completely unwilling to judge him reasonably.

Green is a regular on the PK for Washington, playing as much or more than the 4 players I questioned, and his stats compare favorably, behind only Kubina in goals allowed/minute on the PK. As a top pair defenseman, he regularly sees time against opposing top lines, and again his stats compare favorably, being on the ice for the fewest goals against total, and trailing only Suter in goals allowed/minute ES, and the lowest overall goals allowed/minute on ice. He hits more than any of your 4 guys. He blocks shots fairly well. His giveaways aren't bad considering how often he handles the puck. Takeaways are low, but not by that much.

There is certainly no logic supporting Green being so much worse defensivly that you should overlook his being far better offensively than those 4 guys. And +/- isn't everything, but it is something. Even adjusted +/- (simple version) still has Green with an average 23 points higher. The guy is just flat out effective.

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Yeah, defense is important, but Green isn't nearly as deficient as you say. Comparing him to Lebda is retarded. That makes it fairly obvious that you personally dislike him as a player, and are most likely completely unwilling to judge him reasonably.

Green is a regular on the PK for Washington, playing as much or more than the 4 players I questioned, and his stats compare favorably, behind only Kubina in goals allowed/minute on the PK. As a top pair defenseman, he regularly sees time against opposing top lines, and again his stats compare favorably, being on the ice for the fewest goals against total, and trailing only Suter in goals allowed/minute ES, and the lowest overall goals allowed/minute on ice. He hits more than any of your 4 guys. He blocks shots fairly well. His giveaways aren't bad considering how often he handles the puck. Takeaways are low, but not by that much.

There is certainly no logic supporting Green being so much worse defensively that you should overlook his being far better offensively than those 4 guys. And +/- isn't everything, but it is something. Even adjusted +/- (simple version) still has Green with an average 23 points higher. The guy is just flat out effective.

Green plays quite a bit, this is true, but let's take a look at something:

Atlanta's starter: Ondrej Pavelec

Nashville's starter: Pekka Rinne

Islanders' starter: Dwayne Roloson

Hurricanes' starter: Cam Ward

Caps' starter: Jose Theodore

Theodore was the best starter based on save percentage; technically equal to Rinne, but Rinne saw far fewer shots per game in a comparable number of games.

Only Nashville and the Isles had worse penalty killing, so that part of your argument is only really applicable to Suter as the other teams had notably better PK units despite much worse goaltending. So remove Suter, and replace him with Ehrhoff, and let's see how you call that one?

Luongo was no better than Theodore this past season. The big thing about Washington is not that any of their players played particularly good defense but rather that the team had the puck so damn often. That's why faceoffs are important; if you have the puck, they can't score. Unless it's the playoffs and you have Dan Boyle near your net and Evgeni Nabokov in it apparently.

Green is one of the better defensemen in the league. But he should not be a Norris nominee. That's like nominating Sidney Crosby or Alex Ovechkin for the Selke. Very good player, but not deserving of consideration for the award.

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Green plays quite a bit, this is true, but let's take a look at something:

Atlanta's starter: Ondrej Pavelec

Nashville's starter: Pekka Rinne

Islanders' starter: Dwayne Roloson

Hurricanes' starter: Cam Ward

Caps' starter: Jose Theodore

Theodore was the best starter based on save percentage; technically equal to Rinne, but Rinne saw far fewer shots per game in a comparable number of games.

Only Nashville and the Isles had worse penalty killing, so that part of your argument is only really applicable to Suter as the other teams had notably better PK units despite much worse goaltending. So remove Suter, and replace him with Ehrhoff, and let's see how you call that one?

Luongo was no better than Theodore this past season. The big thing about Washington is not that any of their players played particularly good defense but rather that the team had the puck so damn often. That's why faceoffs are important; if you have the puck, they can't score. Unless it's the playoffs and you have Dan Boyle near your net and Evgeni Nabokov in it apparently.

Green is one of the better defensemen in the league. But he should not be a Norris nominee. That's like nominating Sidney Crosby or Alex Ovechkin for the Selke. Very good player, but not deserving of consideration for the award.

Funny, I don't recall nominating Green for the Norris. I remember saying he's better than the bottom four from you top 10 list.

And btw:

Washington - Theodore: 43 starts, 1352 saves, 2.81 gaa, .911 save%

Carolina - Ward: 45 starts, 1409 saves, 2.69 gaa, .916 save%

Islanders - Roloson: 49 starts, 1555 saves, 3.00 gaa, .907 save%

Atlanta - Hedberg: 42 starts, 1355 saves, 2.62 gaa, .915 save%

Nashville - Rinne: 54 starts, 1541 saves, 2.53 gaa, .911 save%

There's certainly no question that Washington was a better team than the other four, but you shouldn't penalize Green for that. Furthermore, you contradict your own logic. You penalize Green for having a better goalie (when it isn't true) and a better team, but say Pitkinen and Kubina are better because their teams had a better PK (and aparently Streit is better because his team has a worse PK).

Honestly after reading through your post a few times, I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. There doesn't seem to be any logic or rationality in your argument. It seems you just looking for ways to criticize Green.

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Guest GordieSid&Ted

There were some serious flaws with the All-Star teams.

I would have ranked the top five at each position as follows (ten for defense):

C:

H.Sedin

Zetterberg

Crosby

Datsyuk

Kopitar

RW:

Gaborik

St. Louis

Heatley

Alfredsson

Iginla

LW:

Ovechkin

D.Sedin

Marleau

Kovalchuk

Parise

D:

Keith

Lidstrom

Doughty

Pronger

Weber

Chara

Streit

Kubina

Pitkanen

Suter

G:

Ryan Miller

Tomas Vokoun

Evgeni Nabokov

Henrik Lundqvist

Ilya Bryzgalov

That's seven out of twelve selections I disagree with, two I GREATLY disagree with (Kane and Green). As far as simply players selected, it's 4 I disagree with, 2 of 4 I greatly disagree with (Kane and Green)

Sometimes I see you post and all that comes to mind is that scene in the film Seven where Pitt and Freeman are driving Spacey out to the field and Pitt asks Spacey's character "do you know you're f-ing crazy? Do you sit around in your own feces and think, damn...i'm f-ing crazy" or some such.

Only you could rank Henrik Zetterberg as the 2nd best center in the entire NHL last season. Sidney Crosby puts up 39 MORE POINTS, misses just 1 game, bags 51 goals and somehow Z was better?

It must have been Z's extra 10 seconds of PK time per game that trounced the massive disparity in goals, points, PP goals, etc...

I mean, I could see if statistically they were somewhat close. But it ain't close.

And bravo for continuing to be the flag bearer for the Z is better than Datsyuk camp. All 4 of you must be thrilled with your picks.

7 out of 12 you disagree with? Well shoot, why the heck didn't anybody ask you to pick the teams? :rolleyes:

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It seems you just looking for ways to criticize Green.

I said Green was very poor defensively. I said the others played solid defense. If Green had finished with 55 points instead of 76, his chances at winning the Norris would have been almost nil behind the several guys who got bunches of Norris votes and put up that kind of offense while playing strong defense. Do you think Green beats Pronger in voting if they both score 55 points? Unlikely. Boyle and Chara were right there with Pronger also. Green would have, at best, been lucky to get a vote or two, like teammate Jeff Schultz.

Speaking of Jeff Schultz, WTF is up with Schultz getting a fourth place vote for Norris? He was Washington's #3 defenseman! Tom Poti didn't get any votes, but if Schultz is getting votes than Poti should have. Maybe the ballot can read Green-Keith-Poti-Schultz-Doughty or something.

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I said Green was very poor defensively. I said the others played solid defense. If Green had finished with 55 points instead of 76, his chances at winning the Norris would have been almost nil behind the several guys who got bunches of Norris votes and put up that kind of offense while playing strong defense. Do you think Green beats Pronger in voting if they both score 55 points? Unlikely. Boyle and Chara were right there with Pronger also. Green would have, at best, been lucky to get a vote or two, like teammate Jeff Schultz.

...

Once again, who's talking about the Norris? I questioned the bottom 4 of your top 10 list. Now you're giving up that argument to say Green doesn't deserve the Norris (which I never said he did) and wouldn't get any votes if he was a worse player (remarkable observation).

Green is not 'very poor defensively'. He's at worst well above average, while being the top offensive defenseman in the league. That makes him one of the best overall defensemen in the game. Not necessarily Norris-worthy, but he's better than Streit, Kubina, Pitkanen, and Suter. I'd even say he was better than Weber last year, and not far off from anyone else except maybe Keith.

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Sometimes I see you post and all that comes to mind is that scene in the film Seven where Pitt and Freeman are driving Spacey out to the field and Pitt asks Spacey's character "do you know you're f-ing crazy? Do you sit around in your own feces and think, damn...i'm f-ing crazy" or some such.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4NcuPb4wmA

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Green is average defensively at best, and that is generous.

Even when he is not caught up the ice he gets burned on almost a per shift basis. His +\- is great b/c the line he mainly plays on scores buckets against primarily grind lines that rarely score anyways. Caps make no effort to have him out against top lines, and appear to actually avoid it. He's anywhere from their 4th to 6th option on the PK.

Every year he is a downright liability in the playoffs, when checking becomes tighter. I do view his runner-ups for the Norris as a joke, especially when every GM in the league would want at least 5-6 defenseman ahead of him. That he did not even make Team Canada is particularly telling.

IMO a defenseman like Green needs Coffey-like domination to beat out more well-rounded defenders, and Green is certainly no Coffey.

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Sometimes I see you post and all that comes to mind is that scene in the film Seven where Pitt and Freeman are driving Spacey out to the field and Pitt asks Spacey's character "do you know you're f-ing crazy? Do you sit around in your own feces and think, damn...i'm f-ing crazy" or some such.

Only you could rank Henrik Zetterberg as the 2nd best center in the entire NHL last season. Sidney Crosby puts up 39 MORE POINTS, misses just 1 game, bags 51 goals and somehow Z was better?

It must have been Z's extra 10 seconds of PK time per game that trounced the massive disparity in goals, points, PP goals, etc...

I mean, I could see if statistically they were somewhat close. But it ain't close.

And bravo for continuing to be the flag bearer for the Z is better than Datsyuk camp. All 4 of you must be thrilled with your picks.

7 out of 12 you disagree with? Well shoot, why the heck didn't anybody ask you to pick the teams? :rolleyes:

If Sidney Crosby played a shutdown center role first, with his secondary objective being offense, instead of playing an offensive game where he might end up playing a little defense if the play is in his zone for a while, then he would not be scoring anywhere NEAR the numbers he does. He's not the floater Kane is, but Crosby doesn't make a ton of effort to get back and cover in the defensive zone, and even when he does he's not teribly effective. The 08 and 09 finals are excellent examples of this. Crosby vs Zetterberg was a prime example. Zetterberg constantly shut down Crosby, but Crosby coudn't do a thing against Zetterberg. Those series don't factor into my ranking of this season, but that playing style is an example of WHY I ranked Zetterberg ahead of Crosby, as well as why Dats is also in the top 5.

Otherwise I'd have just ranked the centers H.Sedin, Crosby, Backstrom, Stamkos, B.Richards.

LWs would have been Ovechkin, D.Sedin, Kovalchuk, Marleau, Parise.

RWs would have been St. Louis, Kane, Gaborik, Semin, Heatley

D would have been Green, Keith, Doughty, Boyle, Pronger, Gonchar, Enstrom, Streit, Lidstrom, Kaberle

Do you see why defense MUST be taken into account? A good number of these players don't play a lick of defense and are certainly not among the top players at their position.

Some of them will be soon and will stick around, some of them had a career year and/or will never improve their all-around game, and simply don't belong at this level. In other words, to use recent Toronto goaltenders as an example, some will be Felix Potvin (flash in the pan) and some will be or already Curtis Joseph (long career as a top-end player with no Cups). Some of them will be or are already Grant Fuhr (long career as a top-end player with one or more Cups).

As for the "7 out of 12 I disagree with" it goes like this, since you seem to have such a fascination with that.

I seem to have made a typo; It was 7 I agree with and 5 I disagree with. Regardless, here's the breakdown:

I disagreed with:

First Team

RW - Patrick Kane

D - Mike Green

Second Team

C - Sidney Crosby

D - Nicklas Lidstrom

G - Ilya Bryzgalov

My selections would have been:

First Team

C - H.Sedin

LW - Ovechkin

RW - Gaborik

D - Keith, Lidstrom

G - Miller

Second Team

C - Zetterberg

LW - D. Sedin

RW - St. Louis

D - Doughty, Pronger

G - Vokoun

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Green is average defensively at best, and that is generous.

Even when he is not caught up the ice he gets burned on almost a per shift basis. His +\- is great b/c the line he mainly plays on scores buckets against primarily grind lines that rarely score anyways. Caps make no effort to have him out against top lines, and appear to actually avoid it. He's anywhere from their 4th to 6th option on the PK.

Every year he is a downright liability in the playoffs, when checking becomes tighter. I do view his runner-ups for the Norris as a joke, especially when every GM in the league would want at least 5-6 defenseman ahead of him. That he did not even make Team Canada is particularly telling.

IMO a defenseman like Green needs Coffey-like domination to beat out more well-rounded defenders, and Green is certainly no Coffey.

Average perhaps if you're only counting top 4 defensemen. He might not be a shutdown defender, but he sees plenty of PK time, and plenty of time against top lines. Your anecdotal evidence can't easily be refuted. I'm not going to sift through 82 shift reports or analyze video for scoring chances against him. Suffice it to say if he was that bad, it would reflect in the stats. If he was that bad, even his offense wouldn't earn him the amount of respect he has from the media and analysts around the NHL.

And one more time, just to try to make this absolutely clear, I'm not saying Green deserves the Norris or even any votes for the Norris, or for that matter even a spot in the post-season all star teams. I said he's a better overall player than Pitkinen, Kubina, Streit, and Suter.

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