211 replies to this topic

[dobbles]

And the prevailing argument has also become "do you know more than Holland?" Of course none of us know more about running a franchise than Holland. But it's about being a fan of the team. Analyzing and overanalyzing every move and throwing our two cents in. That's why this forum exists.

the funny part for me about this whole angle is we have no idea how Holland even feels on the issue. its been stated that Asham apparently wanted to stay in PA. so Holland could have thought Asham was the X factor, but it didn't matter because Asham didn't want to play here. there seems to be an automatic assumption that every player in the nhl wants to sign here first and if he doesn't, its because the wings passed on the player; not the other way around.

[Jesusberg]

I don't think anyone here expects Modano to be "great". He's likely going to be able to put up 40-50 points, and maintain a solid all-around game. Modano give us, arguably, the deepest pool of forwards in the league.

[mindfly]

I don't think anyone here expects Modano to be "great". He's likely going to be able to put up 40-50 points, and maintain a solid all-around game. Modano give us, arguably, the deepest pool of forwards in the league.

I think it's reasonable that Modano WILL play better in detroit than the past two seasons with the stars for obvious reasons but if he doesn't I think putting helm as the third center and brought asham instead of Modano, as a 4th liner (hudler back of course), would also bring correct depth but with more sandpaper and the third line would have had two defensive minded players in helm and cleary, now it's only cleary...

Detroit won in 08 because of Defense and the bottom 6 players were mostly sandpaper guys doing their thing.

Defense or Offense... we'll se how it pans out, could be great.. but no guarantee

Edited by mindfly, 22 August 2010 - 04:55 PM.

[Buppy]

I'm not acting like I'm being repressed. There's actually been some good conversations going on in here, like between GMR and mindfly.

Speaking only for myself, sure it would've been nice to pick up Asham for 700k. But I'm not saying he's getting the Wings to the Cup or it's an either or situation with Modano. It's all the people jumping into the thread who've made it that. There's a pretty large gap between saying you'd want a player on the team and that player would make the difference in winning the Cup.

But that's a common argument for shooting it down. "xxxx player is not going to be the difference to get the Wings to the Cup."

And the prevailing argument has also become "do you know more than Holland?" Of course none of us know more about running a franchise than Holland. But it's about being a fan of the team. Analyzing and overanalyzing every move and throwing our two cents in. That's why this forum exists.

The Draper thing was really an aside which has derailed this thread even more. As I said, I'm a big Draper fan, but Holland was overly optimistic about his contributions to the team when he signed that contract. Or maybe he didn't have enough faith in kids like Helm to replace him.

Really? Prevailing argument? Heaten used that argument once, and you've been harping on it ever since. Mostly, it's been a discussion on the relative merits of Modano and Asham, scoring and grit/fighting. You now seem intent on proving that Holland can make mistakes, as if that proves that this particular move (or non-move in this case) is a mistake.

Now unfortunately, this seems to be devolving into just another enforcer debate. Oh well.

[Heaten]

First off, no every player isn't important to a Cup victory. It's great if they are, but typically there's a couple guys at least who weren't difference makers.

Never said Draper was 'the difference maker', he was part of the foundation to give the team that extra element that it takes to win.

And there it is. One quote from Babcock, so how could we ever question the Wings??

I can pull up past quotes from Bowman too. But they have nothing on your hockey knowledge.

You keep talking about how that extra money couldn't have gotten the Wings anyone else. The Wings are tight against the cap. Maybe you don't understand how the cap works, but it's not like any money saved from Drapes contract would have to be used one to one for another player. It's about the total cap space, and I bet Holland would love to have every dollar he could get to work with.

Who else do Wings need? This is a stacked team on paper. I can't wait to see how well they gel. Who would Holland use that extra $500k packaged up with (Modano?, Helm?, Eaves?, Abdelkader?, Salei?) or whoever it is you wanted to use that extra money for?

- 1st line is top 3 in the league - CHECK
- 2nd line is a force with Bert-Flip-Franzen - CHECK
- 3rd line is arguably best in the league - CHECK
- 4th line is fast, tenacious, defensive and offensive w/ grit and sandpaper - CHECK

- 1st D-pairing w/ 4 time cup winner and captain (aka Norris Nick) & one of the best offensive d-men in the Olympics - CHECK
- 2nd D-pairing w/ Stuart & Kronwall for that one/two punch in physical shut down and puck moving offense who lays players out - CHECK
- 3rd D-pairing w/ Salei & Ericsson/Kindl Physical and can score pairing and young kids drafted by the best scout in the entire NHL get their chance to shine and develop - CHECK

As you can see, this team is stacked. This is a cup contending team. Only place to upgrade is the 3rd D-pairing by waiving/trading Jim Nill's prospects in favor of a proven older dman in Sutton... then what happens in 3 years when he's washed up and Ericsson and Kindl are tearing it up? All for what? THIS TEAM ISf****** STACKED ALREADY

Blink indeed. So you're saying his contract was "brilliant" then, but he's overpaid now? That doesn't make a lick of sense. How can the same contract be brilliant and overpaid?

When a team wins the Stanley Cup, every contract was "brilliant". You do realize the ultimate prize is the Stanley Cup, right? Since Drapers contract, Red Wings have been to the WCF, CUP, SCF, and SQF.... AND HOLLAND IS STILL ICING A STACKEDf****** TEAM THIS YEAR!!!!!! Yet you are still crying? Get over it. His contract isn't that bad. His contract isn't making or breaking the team's success. You have over 10k posts and you are this dumb about hockey. My god you need to get off the internet and read "hockey for dumbies"... Gah

Again, if you had read what I previously wrote, I said a contract should be evaluated on its full term. Not just on a season by season basis. Because of course these guys are going to be worth it on the front end.

Again, Red Wings went to the WCF, CUP, SCF, SCQF, and Holland is still icing one of, (if not the best), team in the NHL this year.

That's pretty ironic considering you missed that I was kidding. Read the sentences directly after the one about Drapers points.

You say so much stupid s***, it's heard to know whats a joke and what is poor logic. Maybe you should stop "kidding" because it makes you look foolish on here.

You're great at putting words in my mouth and inventing arguments so you can shoot them down.

I don't have to put words in your mouth... you say the stupid s*** on your own.

Lol @ Drapers contract is soo bad, yet Wings past 4 years (including this year) looks like this: WCF (lost to the Ducks) :: SCF (won Cup) :: SCF (lost gm 7, entire team was banged and battered) :: Stanley Cup Quarter Finals (exhausted team from 3 previous deep runs were ousted by #1 team in the West, rookie Howard gave up a few back breakers -- but you'll probably blame Draper) Only on LGWs /facepalm

Edited by Heaten, 22 August 2010 - 05:57 PM.

[Broken 16]

Modano... Asham... Either way. Gonna be a fun season to watch.

[PatKaneInHumane]

Does your mom know you are using the computer?

Does your mom know her grandchildren are ugly? Seriously change that avatar.

Edited by PatKaneInHumane, 22 August 2010 - 07:38 PM.

[PatKaneInHumane]

Never said Draper was 'the difference maker', he was part of the foundation to give the team that extra element that it takes to win.



I can pull up past quotes from Bowman too. But they have nothing on your hockey knowledge.



Who else do Wings need? This is a stacked team on paper. I can't wait to see how well they gel. Who would Holland use that extra $500k packaged up with (Modano?, Helm?, Eaves?, Abdelkader?, Salei?) or whoever it is you wanted to use that extra money for?

- 1st line is top 3 in the league - CHECK
- 2nd line is a force with Bert-Flip-Franzen - CHECK
- 3rd line is arguably best in the league - CHECK
- 4th line is fast, tenacious, defensive and offensive w/ grit and sandpaper - CHECK

- 1st D-pairing w/ 4 time cup winner and captain (aka Norris Nick) & one of the best offensive d-men in the Olympics - CHECK
- 2nd D-pairing w/ Stuart & Kronwall for that one/two punch in physical shut down and puck moving offense who lays players out - CHECK
- 3rd D-pairing w/ Salei & Ericsson/Kindl Physical and can score pairing and young kids drafted by the best scout in the entire NHL get their chance to shine and develop - CHECK

As you can see, this team is stacked. This is a cup contending team. Only place to upgrade is the 3rd D-pairing by waiving/trading Jim Nill's prospects in favor of a proven older dman in Sutton... then what happens in 3 years when he's washed up and Ericsson and Kindl are tearing it up? All for what? THIS TEAM ISf****** STACKED ALREADY



When a team wins the Stanley Cup, every contract was "brilliant". You do realize the ultimate prize is the Stanley Cup, right? Since Drapers contract, Red Wings have been to the WCF, CUP, SCF, and SQF.... AND HOLLAND IS STILL ICING A STACKEDf****** TEAM THIS YEAR!!!!!! Yet you are still crying? Get over it. His contract isn't that bad. His contract isn't making or breaking the team's success. You have over 10k posts and you are this dumb about hockey. My god you need to get off the internet and read "hockey for dumbies"... Gah



Again, Red Wings went to the WCF, CUP, SCF, SCQF, and Holland is still icing one of, (if not the best), team in the NHL this year.



You say so much stupid s***, it's heard to know whats a joke and what is poor logic. Maybe you should stop "kidding" because it makes you look foolish on here.



I don't have to put words in your mouth... you say the stupid s*** on your own.

Lol @ Drapers contract is soo bad, yet Wings past 4 years (including this year) looks like this: WCF (lost to the Ducks) :: SCF (won Cup) :: SCF (lost gm 7, entire team was banged and battered) :: Stanley Cup Quarter Finals (exhausted team from 3 previous deep runs were ousted by #1 team in the West, rookie Howard gave up a few back breakers -- but you'll probably blame Draper) Only on LGWs /facepalm

Didn't read lol

[haroldsnepsts]

Never said Draper was 'the difference maker', he was part of the foundation to give the team that extra element that it takes to win.

Umm, isn't that pretty much a difference maker? You're hilarious dude. He's not the difference maker. He's just the one who was part of that element that made the difference?

I can pull up past quotes from Bowman too. But they have nothing on your hockey knowledge.

That'd be impressive since he works for the Hawks. Because we're talking about Drapes now, not under Bowman.

blah blah blah...


You say so much stupid s***, it's heard to know whats a joke and what is poor logic. Maybe you should stop "kidding" because it makes you look foolish on here.

Hey, thanks for the personal attack. For the record I didn't give your post a minus. Apparently there are people here who are less a fan of them than I am.

I don't have to put words in your mouth... you say the stupid s*** on your own.

And another one! cheers!

Lol @ Drapers contract is soo bad, yet Wings past 4 years (including this year) looks like this: WCF (lost to the Ducks) :: SCF (won Cup) :: SCF (lost gm 7, entire team was banged and battered) :: Stanley Cup Quarter Finals (exhausted team from 3 previous deep runs were ousted by #1 team in the West, rookie Howard gave up a few back breakers -- but you'll probably blame Draper) Only on LGWs /facepalm

That's airtight logic. The Wings have done well, therefore Draper's contract is a good one. Do you seriously not see the flaws with that line of thinking?

Edited by haroldsnepsts, 22 August 2010 - 11:17 PM.

[cjm502]

August on LGW really does bring the worst out in several posters.

[titanium2]

When was the last time LGW had a thread that just got derailed so badly?

[Zetts]

I find it bizarre that there's so much discussion over a fourth liner. It took most of the summer for the guy to sign a one year 700k contract. Obviously he's not a highly sought-after commodity and he wouldn't make a big difference to this team.

He hasn't broken 30 points since 2003. Looking at hitting he had 92 hits in 72 games last year on a team whose culture is supposedly based around physicality. Jonathan Ericsson had 93 hits in 10 less games, and the guy barely hits at all. Asham's 92 hits actually puts him in a 5-way tie for 206th in the league for hitting last year. How inspiring.

I swear, someone on this board a couple of years ago just started pushing for him enough and this got some momentum. We're fine without him.


Also, it would be great if people could stop commenting on others' perceived intelligence, children, mothers, dogs and whatever else. Just stick to the topic.

Edited by Zetts, 23 August 2010 - 12:35 AM.

[cjm502]

I find it bizarre that there's so much discussion over a fourth liner. It took most of the summer for the guy to sign a one year 700k contract. Obviously he's not a highly sought-after commodity and he wouldn't make a big difference to this team.

He hasn't broken 30 points since 2003. Looking at hitting he had 92 hits in 72 games last year on a team whose culture is supposedly based around physicality. Jonathan Ericsson had 93 hits in 10 less games, and the guy barely hits at all. Asham's 92 hits actually puts him in a 5-way tie for 206th in the league for hitting last year. How inspiring.

I swear, someone on this board a couple of years ago just started pushing for him enough and this got some momentum. We're fine without him.


Also, it would be great if people could stop commenting on others' perceived intelligence, children, mothers, dogs and whatever else. Just stick to the topic.

This might be the most intelligent post that has gone down in this thread all day. Asham is a small 4th liner that doesnt hit that much, doesnt score that much, but is willing to drop the gloves on occasion. Its amazing how much credibility a player can get on LGW just because they fight.

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros]

PatKaneInHumane?Damn it. Another bandwagon Hawks fan on LGW?

[Detroit # 1 Fan]

Anyone who defends Drapers contract or says its market value is crazy. Go Wings Gooooo

[F.Michael]

Does your mom know her grandchildren are ugly? Seriously change that avatar.

As crude as this post is - it made me

[F.Michael]

Our fourth line has energy. We have Abdelkader and Eaves, among others. It's not like we have a fourth line of cowards on the team and need someone like Asham for it to stay afloat.

This is a single fourth line guy who honestly would not improve the team a hell of a lot over what he would replace. Nothing to freak out about.

Adding Asham certainly wouldn't have hurt.

But he gives us an added dimension that those guys don't.

And despite what other posters may say, it does help to have a guy on the 4th line that can drop the gloves.

Bingo!

[F.Michael]

I agree. Asham would've been a nice little addition and for cheap.

In these threads about adding grit people always make the argument that guys who will hit, fight, and aren't total goons aren't out there to be had, at least not for cheap. Asham is a good example of a guy that was.

And I have to admire your dedication in this thread GMR, but it's a lost cause dude. If Holland had signed Asham, there would be a 20 page thread about how great the guy is and what a positive addition to the team he is. Because he signed elsewhere, most of what you're going to get is how Holland knows what he's doing and Asham is useless.

Obviously we don't know if Holland ever contacted him or Asham ever would've played here. But he's a guy who was had for cheap that would've made a team better. That seems worth commenting on. This place has become such a Red Wings cheerleading camp sometimes. Talking about this s*** doesn't mean you hate the Wings or think Holland is a bad GM. It's a hockey forum.

It's not like he was saying Holland was a terrible GM or the Wings suck. Just pointing out someone who was out there and being disappointed we didn't get him, when the argument is often made these guys don't exist or will cost too much.

Harold - you're an ignorant fossil!...How dare you question the Detroit Red Wings brain trust?!!...Go to hell!!!

[SouthernWingsFan]

When was the last time LGW had a thread that just got derailed so badly?

Probably the last time that this was indirectly the subject of debate.

Edited by SouthernWingsFan, 23 August 2010 - 04:59 AM.

[korrowan]

iirc Asham wanted to stay in PA/near Philly.

Only an idiot would want to stay near Philly... I hate this place.