Lines discussion, leading up to game 1 vs SJ

[Guest blueadams]

WEDNESDAY's practice lines were: http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2011/04/mike_babcock_forechecking_key.html

FORWARDS:

#1) Franzen-Datsyuk-Holmstrom...or...Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Holmstrom

#2) Hudler/Modano-Zetterberg-Filppula...or...Hudler/Modano-Filppula-Franzen

#3) Cleary-Abdelkader-Bertuzzi

#4) Draper/Miller-Helm-Eaves

DEFENSE:

#1) Lidstrom-Stuart

#2) Ericsson-Rafalski

#3) Kronwall-Salei

Edited April 27, 2011 by blueadams

[Drake_Marcus 890]

I'd actually like to see how Modano-Helm-Eaves would look but I can understand why Babs would be hesitant to break the 4th line up after their performance in the 1st round.

[RedLightGoesOn 81]

Hank and Datsyuk won't be on the same line too much IMO. It would be really sick and I think it would be a good line but Babcock can split them up for their defensive abilities to cover 2 lines. The Hudler-Filppula-Franzen line is the one where you can say they might be able to play solid defense, hence why you move on up to play with Pavel and Hank moves down to provide the defensive coverage. 4 on 4 is where you put the Euro twins out there. That is maximizing our depth both ways.

Also, subbing out Draper for Modano would be nice.

Edited April 24, 2011 by RedLightGoesOn

[Mabuhay Red Wings 177]

Hudler-Filppula-Franzen

We see this idea here on LGW over and over again. I've thought about it myself because it appears to be a fantastic idea. Yet, we haven't seen these three play together all that much. Babs simply hasn't given these three significant time to build chemistry and trust. I don't have any inside information on Babs' rationale but I can kind of see why he doesn't like this idea.

For one, he likes to stick to his (or perhaps most coaches) blueprint for scoring lines. Two guys get to play with the puck while the third has to either simply shoot it or retrieve it for the other two guys and then park himself in front of the goalie to provide net presence. With Hudler-Filppula-Franzen, you would think that all you have to do is instruct Filppula and Hudler to make plays with the puck and then count on Franzen to do the dirty work. However, the Wings players have evolved over the years. We no longer live in the time of Before Mule (B.M. - Pre-Spring '08) or in other words the period of time where some thought he would be a successor to Holmstrom and where Franzen grew into a major scoring threat. I can see why Babcock doesn't really want Franzen parked in front of the net anymore. He's more of a threat if he sets himself up in his sweet spots to use that awesome shot of his. Therefore, if Franzen shouldn't be at the net, then what about Hudler or Filppula? The idea is laughable to some. Do you really trust either of those two to be effective in a Holmstrom-like role? They probably can't put up with the physical toll that Homer, Cleary and Bert sacrifice themselves for every game.

Plus, Hudler and Franzen still have questionable defensive games. Hudler has only earned enough trust to play around 9 minutes a game and is last on the team with an average of 7:41 in even strength TOI. Franzen has somehow lost some of his ability for good positioning and anticipation but I will admit that the playoff atmosphere has sharpened his focus in that area a little but as the games have went on. In the end, I can kind of see why Babs wouldn't trust a scoring line like that to be responsible for another team's scoring line.

[Guest blueadams]

Hank and Datsyuk won't be on the same line too much IMO. It would be really sick and I think it would be a good line but Babcock can split them up for their defensive abilities to cover 2 lines. The Hudler-Filppula-Franzen line is the one where you can say they might be able to play solid defense, hence why you move on up to play with Pavel and Hank moves down to provide the defensive coverage. 4 on 4 is where you put the Euro twins out there. That is maximizing our depth both ways.

Also, subbing out Draper for Modano would be nice.

Hank wasn't skating well enough to dress in game 4...and you seem to be assuming that we're going to be getting what we're used to getting out of him in game one. I don't know how realistic that is. I could be wrong. You could be wrong. We won't know until we start getting some real practice reports.

Edited April 24, 2011 by blueadams

[Guest blueadams]

Hudler-Filppula-Franzen

We see this idea here on LGW over and over again. I've thought about it myself because it appears to be a fantastic idea. Yet, we haven't seen these three play together all that much. Babs simply hasn't given these three significant time to build chemistry and trust. I don't have any inside information on Babs' rationale but I can kind of see why he doesn't like this idea.

For one, he likes to stick to his (or perhaps most coaches) blueprint for scoring lines. Two guys get to play with the puck while the third has to either simply shoot it or retrieve it for the other two guys and then park himself in front of the goalie to provide net presence. With Hudler-Filppula-Franzen, you would think that all you have to do is instruct Filppula and Hudler to make plays with the puck and then count on Franzen to do the dirty work. However, the Wings players have evolved over the years. We no longer live in the time of Before Mule (B.M. - Pre-Spring '08) or in other words the period of time where some thought he would be a successor to Holmstrom and where Franzen grew into a major scoring threat. I can see why Babcock doesn't really want Franzen parked in front of the net anymore. He's more of a threat if he sets himself up in his sweet spots to use that awesome shot of his. Therefore, if Franzen shouldn't be at the net, then what about Hudler or Filppula? The idea is laughable to some. Do you really trust either of those two to be effective in a Holmstrom-like role? They probably can't put up with the physical toll that Homer, Cleary and Bert sacrifice themselves for every game.

Plus, Hudler and Franzen still have questionable defensive games. Hudler has only earned enough trust to play around 9 minutes a game and is last on the team with an average of 7:41 in even strength TOI. Franzen has somehow lost some of his ability for good positioning and anticipation but I will admit that the playoff atmosphere has sharpened his focus in that area a little but as the games have went on. In the end, I can kind of see why Babs wouldn't trust a scoring line like that to be responsible for another team's scoring line.

very well thought out post, and i agree on all accounts. the problem is...#1) breaking up that nice third line to get a net-front presence on the second line...and...#2) finding a place for Hudler to be effective in the bottom six. (and i think that we have to assume hank's going to be on the wing at least for a game or two? yes? no?)

i'd like to hear your ideas there...

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Holmstrom

Franzen-Abdelkader-Bertuzzi

Hudler-Filppula-Cleary

Draper-Helm-Eaves

Miller

Modano

This is the best that I can come up with (with Hank on the wing). It seems a shame to have Abby centering the second line while Val is centering the third...but...#1) Babs has actually rolled that Mule-Abby-Bert line a few times in the playoffs, and it's looked good...and...#2) Hudler-Abby-Cleary just smells like a garbage combination, doesn't it?

***If Hank can center his own line, it's relatively simple:

Filppula-Datsyuk-Holmstrom (Val and Pav have amazing chemistry!)

Franzen-Zetterberg-Cleary (an old favorite)

Hudler-Abdelkader-Bertuzzi (I actually like Modano in there for Hudler)

Draper-Helm-Eaves

Miller

Modano

Edited April 24, 2011 by blueadams

[Konnan511 1,736]

Hank wasn't skating well enough to dress in game 4...and you seem to be assuming that we're going to be getting what we're used to getting out of him in game one. I don't know how realistic that is. I could be wrong. You could be wrong. We won't know until we start getting some real practice reports.

The first game back a player usually plays up to, or above par due to adrenaline, it's the next two games that will be tough.

[Theophany 110]

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Holmstrom

Hudler-Filppula-Franzen

Cleary-Abdelkader-Bertuzzi

Draper-Helm-Eaves

These lines seem completely reasonable, and I think Babcock will at least start Zetterberg on the wing until he's sure that he can center a line.

He's also less likely to split the euro twins up unless the other team has legitimate first line scoring potential on their second line like Pittsburgh did in 08 and 09.

Against the Canucks, I could see splitting Z and Dats, same with against the Blackhawks. Against Nashville, Anaheim, or LA/San Jose? Eh, very unlikely IMO.

[Konnan511 1,736]

Holmstrom - Datsyuk - Cleary

Hudler - Zetterberg - Franzen

Abdelkader - Filppula - Bertuzzi

Draper - Helm - Eaves.

PP1:

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Holmstrom

PP2:

Franzen - Filppula - Hudler

Solid down the center. Every line is 100% defensively responsible. Every line has a bit of grit around the net and a guy who is an excellent passer and a guy who is a good shooter.

[Guest blueadams]

Holmstrom - Datsyuk - Cleary

Hudler - Zetterberg - Franzen

Abdelkader - Filppula - Bertuzzi

Draper - Helm - Eaves.

PP1:

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Holmstrom

PP2:

Franzen - Filppula - Hudler

Solid down the center. Every line is 100% defensively responsible. Every line has a bit of grit around the net and a guy who is an excellent passer and a guy who is a good shooter.

i can't say that i like those lines, at all. cleary is pav's offensive help? mule is zetterberg's net-front presence? (a problem that was just pointed out).

[Konnan511 1,736]

i can't say that i like those lines, at all. cleary is pav's offensive help? mule is zetterberg's net-front presence? (a problem that was just pointed out).

You can't always think about offense. We were able to stack the lines last series cause' PHX just plain sucks. Our next round opponents we are going to need all 4 lines to be able to shut down lines. Only way to do that is have Zata, Datsyuk, Filppula all centering their own lines while having one other defensively responsible winger on that same line. Plus, Cleary had 26 goals this season, he knows how to find the back of the net.

Edited April 24, 2011 by Konnan511

[Guest blueadams]

You can't always think about offense. We were able to stack the lines last series cause' PHX just plain sucks. Our next round opponents we are going to need all 4 lines to be able to shut down lines. Only way to do that is have Zata, Datsyuk, Filppula all centering their own lines while having one other defensively responsible winger on that same line. Plus, Cleary had 26 goals this season, he knows how to find the back of the net.

Abby's not a good enough defensive center? Babs uses him on the PK from time to time.

And the same thing you said about Cleary could be said about Homer. There's a big difference between being a skilled offensive player and racking up 'garbage' goals.

Edited April 24, 2011 by blueadams

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

blueadams-blueadams-blueadams

blueadams-blueadams-blueadams

blueadams-blueadams-blueadams

blueadams-blueadams-blueadams

blueadams-blueadams

blueadams-blueadams

blueadams-blueadams

blueadams

blueadams

:chug:

:beerbuddy:

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Franzen - Datsyuk - Holmstrom

Cleary - Zetterberg - Bertuzzi

Hudler - Filppula - Abdelkader

Draper - Helm - Eaves

Not much different than the lines used against Phoenix.

[Guest blueadams]

Franzen - Datsyuk - Holmstrom

Cleary - Zetterberg - Bertuzzi

Hudler - Filppula - Abdelkader

Draper - Helm - Eaves

Not much different than the lines used against Phoenix.

i think it'd be just plain foolish not to put Flip on Pav's wing if you've got Z able to center a line. those two had some incredible chemistry going in game two.

[Konnan511 1,736]

Franzen - Datsyuk - Holmstrom

Cleary - Zetterberg - Bertuzzi

Hudler - Filppula - Abdelkader

Draper - Helm - Eaves

Not much different than the lines used against Phoenix.

I agree with the idea of having Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Filppula centering their own lines.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

i think it'd be just plain foolish not to put Flip on Pav's wing if you've got Z able to center a line. those two had some incredible chemistry going in game two.

Then you make Hudler and at least another winger meaningless, because someone needs to center the 3rd line.

This way, the lines are better balanced.

Besides, that's a damn good top line the way they're playing. Same thing with the 2nd line.

Edited April 25, 2011 by GMRwings1983

[Mabuhay Red Wings 177]

Filppula-Datsyuk-Holmstrom (Val and Pav have amazing chemistry!)

Franzen-Zetterberg-Cleary (an old favorite)

Hudler-Abdelkader-Bertuzzi (I actually like Modano in there for Hudler)

Draper-Helm-Eaves

Miller

Modano

I like these lines actually but I don't see Hudler as much of a fixture in the lineup as you do. If the Wings have to play San Jose, a team that can really skate, then I wouldn't be surprised at all if Hudler is the one who gets scratched the whole series in addition to Modano. The Wings must have their best defensive lineup against a team like the Sharks. Therefore, perhaps Miller on that third line in place of Hudler would look better to me because he's also a fixture on the PK. Now, when you scratch Hudler, you have to consider whether or not the PP has a stable 2nd unit. Franzen-Datsyuk-Holmstrom is good. Well, good enough. And then you probably have Filppula-Zetterberg-Cleary. It puts a lot more pressure on Filppula to be more of a PP quarterback from the half boards, something that Hudler is quite better at. It's questionable to say the least when you wonder if the third line has enough offense but in saying that, I would still trust that it can chip in some points while being hard to play against on the defensive end.

[Guest blueadams]

Then you make Hudler and at least another winger meaningless, because someone needs to center the 3rd line.

This way, the lines are better balanced.

Besides, that's a damn good top line the way they're playing. Same thing with the 2nd line.

what about this...

Hudler-Datsyuk-Holmstrom

Franzen-Zetterberg-Cleary

Abdelkader-Filppula-Bertuzzi

Draper-Helm-Eaves

I still like my original lines better, but if you MUST have pav, hank and flip centering.

[Wing Across The Pond 196]

No idea why, but don't like looking at Homer on the top line. I think I must be coming down with something... then again he almost needs to be, as 3rd and 4th lines aren't going to move the puck like the top two for him to get into position.

Keep Z-D-H for PP1, and don't split Dats and Franzen. They're working together.

Might also be nice to split Helm and Draper to have some speed on two lines. If they're throwing in hits on the forecheck, and then someone else is coming in to hold the puck, it could lead to some more chances then having them both power in with speed, lay some checks, only for the other team to clear their lines.

Just thoughts

[Aussie_Wing 354]

I hate Flip being wasted on the 3rd line, but I just think the Sharks have so much depth, especially at centre, that we need Dats on line 1, Hank on 2nd, Flip on 3rd. At least to start with anyway.

Franzen - Datsyuk - Holmstrom

Cleary - Zetterberg - Bertuzzi

Hudler - Filppula - Miller

Abdelkader - Helm - Eaves

* If you want to scratch Miller for Draper, swap Abby with Miller and Draper with Abby.

Edited April 25, 2011 by Aussie_Wing

[matt198913 932]

The Abby Bert Cleary line was one of the best lines for the Wings against the Yotes. I think you have to keep them in tact.

Zetterberg- Datsyuk- Holmstrom

Franzen- Filpula- Hudler

Cleary- Abdelkader- Bertuzzi

Eaves- Helm- Miller

Thats the way I see it. Four really solid lines

[Aussie_Wing 354]

^ I quite like those lines actually!

[Chunkylover 26]

I see Babcock going for depth and therefore keeping Datsyuk and Zetterberg separate unless there is a dire need for a goal. They haven't really worked together consistently since '08. Seems unlikely he would break up the fourth line unless they become ineffective or an injury occurs. Holmstrom of course could end up sliding down to the third line with Abdelkader/Hudler or Filppula moving up at the end of a close game for more offense or defense respectively. I see Abdelkader and Miller higher on the depth chart than Hudler or Modano. Really not a bad line up in any way.

Franzen - Datsyuk - Holmstrom

Cleary - Zetterberg - Bertuzzi

Abdelkader/Hudler- Filppula - Miller/Modano

Draper - Helm - Eaves

Might also be nice to split Helm and Draper to have some speed on two lines. If they're throwing in hits on the forecheck, and then someone else is coming in to hold the puck, it could lead to some more chances then having them both power in with speed, lay some checks, only for the other team to clear their lines.

I've always wondered why Helm never saw time on the top line after injury shuffles. It seems to me he'd be able to hang with Pavel and his hands can't be worse than Homer's.

[HankthaTank 1,100]

Here's what I say:

Zetterberg- Datsyuk- Cleary

Franzen- Abdelkader- Bertuzzi

Holmstrom- Filppula- Hudler

Draper- Helm- Eaves

That 2nd line could be rotational but when together, makes a lot of noise out there and presents huge problems matchup wise. The 1st line will control the puck and just be a headache to deal with. Hank might have to be a center on one of these lines though with working him back in. We will see, but these are the lines I like for maximizing our potential.