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Datsyerberger

Filppula & The Selke

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What the f***? Flip isn't even in the top 3 defensively on his own team, how is he supposed to win when he wouldn't even get nominated on his own team

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thanks for ranking filppula in the same defensive group as bolland, malhotra, etc. i needed a good laugh.

protip: stop eating paint chips.

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ITT:

People who post on the 2nd page don't read the OP.

Details at 7.

What? I hope this wasn't directed at me because I clearly read the OP. You mentioned that he may have an outside chance at a top 3 finish and asked if you were alone in that thought. So unless the nominations are purely Red Wings players I have a very hard time seeing him get nominated for the Selke when he isn't even in the top 3 on the Red Wings team.

Don't get me wrong, the Red Wings have some great defensive forwards but him being that far on the depth chart on his own team tells me there is about 0% chance that he will get a Selke nomination.

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What? I hope this wasn't directed at me because I clearly read the OP. You mentioned that he may have an outside chance at a top 3 finish and asked if you were alone in that thought. So unless the nominations are purely Red Wings players I have a very hard time seeing him get nominated for the Selke when he isn't even in the top 3 on the Red Wings team.

Don't get me wrong, the Red Wings have some great defensive forwards but him being that far on the depth chart on his own team tells me there is about 0% chance that he will get a Selke nomination.

It was very much at least partly directed at you, yes. The conclusion of the OP (further discussed in posts beyond) was that, without the presence of Datsyuk and Zetterberg on the team, Flip might show up in the top 5 in voting once or twice and that there might be an outside chance of him hitting in the top 3 once later in his career (under the same circumstances), but such is unlikely due to a very non-flashy style of play.

Having either not adequately read or not comprehended the material, you then go on to say (and further elaborate in the quoted post above) that he probably won't get top 3 in the voting, particularly taking into account the two amazing forwards on his team. Given that not only was this already adequately discussed but that those details and a subsequent scenario were specifically discussed with the OP, and that point 1. ruled out any such thing happening, I'm pretty sure I agree... and, seeing as your post seems to address the topic of the OP as if you disagree with the OP (even though your post comes to the same conclusion to the OP), I'm fairly certain you either didn't read it sufficiently or completely misunderstood it.

However, thanks for at least trying to add to an intelligent discussion, something another poster on this page obviously and utterly failed at.

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I've been musing over this for a while.

First, let me acknowledge a couple things:

1. A 'skill' guy like Filppula isn't going to win a Selke unless he's amazing (see: Datsyuk, Pavel). Physically aggressive play is still a necessary component to what many in the media consider to be defense (this is also why the majority of Norris candidates/winners are also physically-oriented guys and why pure skill winners are rare; see Lidstrom, Nicklas).

2. There are people I'd take over Filppula regardless of the above point.

That said, I've wondered how much Selke attention Filppula would get if Datsyuk and Zetterberg were more offense-oriented players. He can PK well and is one of the safest players at ES in the league right now, in my opinion. Most other players in a 2C role that put up his offensive numbers are considerably inferior defensively. Unfortunately, he has an extremely non-assertive style that tends not to get him noticed as much.

I can't see him winning with his style of play nor the shutdown ability of some of the guys out there, but I could see him with a handful of top 5 finishes and a outside-to-decent chance of a top 3 finish or two. Am I alone in this observation?

Oddly enough, sometimes you have better offensive numbers than usual to win the Selke. Look at Draper when he won it in 2004 (?), he's only been good for at most 10-15 goals a year and that year he scored 20+ and had his best offensive production.

So while Datsyuk and Zetterberg are great defensively obviously, their offensive numbers help their cause.

I love Flipper, he's a great defensive forward, but is offensively too streaky or hot/cold or whatever.

It shouldn't matter as much, but some offensive production with the Selke does make a difference.

I firmly believe that a Selke is in Filppula's future. At the very least, a runner up.

I know you are a big fan of him, but this is a bit of a stretch.

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Oddly enough, sometimes you have better offensive numbers than usual to win the Selke. Look at Draper when he won it in 2004 (?), he's only been good for at most 10-15 goals a year and that year he scored 20+ and had his best offensive production.

So while Datsyuk and Zetterberg are great defensively obviously, their offensive numbers help their cause.

I love Flipper, he's a great defensive forward, but is offensively too streaky or hot/cold or whatever.

It shouldn't matter as much, but some offensive production with the Selke does make a difference.

I know you are a big fan of him, but this is a bit of a stretch.

I don't see it as a stretch, in five years, he might not be with the team and he might be centering a first line on some NHL team while being their 1st PK unit. He has all the tools to win a Selke. I also believe Helm will win one sooner rather than later.

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If Henrik Zetterberg can't even get nominated consistently, no chance hell in Filppula ever will, let alone win the Selke.

That's not even a knock really on Filppula as he is a quite strong two-way forward, but he isn't even anywhere near Z's league defensively.

Edited by GoWings1905

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If Henrik Zetterberg can't even get nominated consistently, no chance hell in Filppula ever will, let alone win the Selke.

That's not even a knock really on Filppula as he is a quite strong two-way forward, but he isn't even anywhere near Z's league defensively.

Not true.

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Not true.

Very true. Z plays against better forwards every game. He's a better back-checker, has stronger defensive sense and positioning. I would argue Z is even a better penalty killer even though he doesn't get the chance to keep his minutes down.

Again, I'm not knocking Filppula as he has very strong defensive skills. But as others have said in the thread, Datsyuk and Zetterberg are in a class of their own as two of the best defensive forwards in the league. Filppula isn't at that level, nor do I see him getting there.

Detroit # 1 Fan likes this

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Not true.

Filppula is a good defensive center. Zetterberg is one of the top five defensive forwards in the league. There is a huge difference. Filppula probably could center a first line if he could bring his offensive game consistently, while Z is an elite center at both ends of the ice.

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Filppula is a good defensive center. Zetterberg is one of the top five defensive forwards in the league. There is a huge difference. Filppula probably could center a first line if he could bring his offensive game consistently, while Z is an elite center at both ends of the ice.

Zetterberg is one of the top two-way forwards. But if you look only the defensive aspect he's not that much better than Flip that you could say "it's not anywhere near". Filppula is a good two-way forward yes, but if you look only at the defensive aspect he's more than just "good".

It's the same thing when people say Crosby is one of the better all-around players. He's a beast offensively and that makes people overrate his defense compared to players who don't score that much.

Edited by Finnish Wing
Konnan511 likes this

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It was very much at least partly directed at you, yes. The conclusion of the OP (further discussed in posts beyond) was that, without the presence of Datsyuk and Zetterberg on the team, Flip might show up in the top 5 in voting once or twice and that there might be an outside chance of him hitting in the top 3 once later in his career (under the same circumstances), but such is unlikely due to a very non-flashy style of play.Having either not adequately read or not comprehended the material, you then go on to say (and further elaborate in the quoted post above) that he probably won't get top 3 in the voting, particularly taking into account the two amazing forwards on his team. Given that not only was this already adequately discussed but that those details and a subsequent scenario were specifically discussed with the OP, and that point 1. ruled out any such thing happening, I'm pretty sure I agree... and, seeing as your post seems to address the topic of the OP as if you disagree with the OP (even though your post comes to the same conclusion to the OP), I'm fairly certain you either didn't read it sufficiently or completely misunderstood it.However, thanks for at least trying to add to an intelligent discussion, something another poster on this page obviously and utterly failed at.

Alright, I still disagree with your main conclusion that he is even in the top 5 without Dats or Z (and I'm sorry but lol at taking 2 of the very best defensive forwards in the league out of the discussion). I think why I reacted the way I did in my post was because your title and mentioned the Selke and the fact that he isn't even top 3 on his team has a lot of relevance to your OP and main point. Just to give you a hyperbole.... I think that Zetterberg and Datsyuk could win the Art Ross or be top 3 if Crosby, Ovechkin or the Sedin twins weren't in the league. Seems kinda funny that you would say he has a chance at the Selke but you have to make exclusions to winning the trophy. Aside from the Red Wings I think guys like J. Staal, M. Richards, J. Toews, R. Kesler, and the list goes on are better than Flip. Is he a good defensive forward? Absolutely, however, I think we tend to exercise a lot of bias when we compare Red Wings to other players in the league especially in a category like this because let's face it, shut down forwards don't get a lot of hype.

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Alright, I still disagree with your main conclusion that he is even in the top 5 without Dats or Z (and I'm sorry but lol at taking 2 of the very best defensive forwards in the league out of the discussion). I think why I reacted the way I did in my post was because your title and mentioned the Selke and the fact that he isn't even top 3 on his team has a lot of relevance to your OP and main point. Just to give you a hyperbole.... I think that Zetterberg and Datsyuk could win the Art Ross or be top 3 if Crosby, Ovechkin or the Sedin twins weren't in the league. Seems kinda funny that you would say he has a chance at the Selke but you have to make exclusions to winning the trophy. Aside from the Red Wings I think guys like J. Staal, M. Richards, J. Toews, R. Kesler, and the list goes on are better than Flip. Is he a good defensive forward? Absolutely, however, I think we tend to exercise a lot of bias when we compare Red Wings to other players in the league especially in a category like this because let's face it, shut down forwards don't get a lot of hype.

Keep in mind that my conclusion he has a chance in finishing top 5 in voting later in his career when his play further solidifies, and that this chance increases without Dats and Z eating votes... not that I think he's one of the top 5 fowards defensively (I'd feel fairly confident putting him in the top 15 centers defensively, though).

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Keep in mind that my conclusion he has a chance in finishing top 5 in voting later in his career when his play further solidifies, and that this chance increases without Dats and Z eating votes... not that I think he's one of the top 5 fowards defensively (I'd feel fairly confident putting him in the top 15 centers defensively, though).

I would disagree with top 15 centers. Think about it. Even on his own team, you have Henrik Zetterberg, Pavel Datsyuk, and Darren Helm. That's three already. Now let's go around the division. In Chicago there's Jonathan Toews and Dave Bolland. Columbus has Sami Pahlsson. Nashville has Jerred Smithson. St. Louis has Jay McClement.

So within the division there are eight centers better defensively than Flip. Granted, Pahlsson is practically retired and a guy like McClement isn't going to win a Selke, but that wasn't your criteria.

So do you think there are fewer than seven centers throughout the rest of the league who are better than Filppula defensively? How about Ryan Kesler, Patrice Bergeron, Mikko Koivu, Travis Zajac, Mike Richards, Jeff Carter, and Jordan Staal? I figure there are more, as well. I believe Filppula would fall into the top 45 forwards defensively, but center holds an even higher percentage of the top defensive forwards than it does of offensive forwards, so he's not cracking that group.

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I would disagree with top 15 centers. Think about it. Even on his own team, you have Henrik Zetterberg, Pavel Datsyuk, and Darren Helm. That's three already. Now let's go around the division. In Chicago there's Jonathan Toews and Dave Bolland. Columbus has Sami Pahlsson. Nashville has Jerred Smithson. St. Louis has Jay McClement.

So within the division there are eight centers better defensively than Flip. Granted, Pahlsson is practically retired and a guy like McClement isn't going to win a Selke, but that wasn't your criteria.

So do you think there are fewer than seven centers throughout the rest of the league who are better than Filppula defensively? How about Ryan Kesler, Patrice Bergeron, Mikko Koivu, Travis Zajac, Mike Richards, Jeff Carter, and Jordan Staal? I figure there are more, as well. I believe Filppula would fall into the top 45 forwards defensively, but center holds an even higher percentage of the top defensive forwards than it does of offensive forwards, so he's not cracking that group.

I disagree with most of that first paragraph, most of the second and most of the third.

Z and D for the C likes this

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I would disagree with top 15 centers. Think about it. Even on his own team, you have Henrik Zetterberg, Pavel Datsyuk, and Darren Helm. That's three already. Now let's go around the division. In Chicago there's Jonathan Toews and Dave Bolland. Columbus has Sami Pahlsson. Nashville has Jerred Smithson. St. Louis has Jay McClement.

Filppula is better defensively than Helm (Helm is a better PKer, however). Bolland is better at 1 on 1 shutdown but Flip is better positionally; I'd give an edge to Bolland based off of last year. Pahlsson isn't what he used to be; agree on McClement, though, he's very underrated. Smithson isn't quite to Flip's level, and speaking of Nashville, I think Flip's probably ahead of Fisher at this point.

Datsyuk

Zetterberg

Toews

Kesler

M. Koivu

M. Richards

McClement

Bolland

J. Staal

Bergeron

Zajac

Malhotra

that's 12 I'd confidently put ahead of Flip, with a ~3 player cushion for a player or two I may have brainfarted on. Easily has a chance of slipping into the bottom half of my top 15.

Agree on Carter at one point, by the way, but though he's still been solid the last couple years, he seems very uninspired (not quite lazy) the last couple as well. Reminding me of Heatley in that regard.

Edited by Datsyerberger

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I disagree with most of that first paragraph, most of the second and most of the third.

What exactly do you disagree with? The fact that Filppula isn't a Selke contender right now?

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What exactly do you disagree with? The fact that Filppula isn't a Selke contender right now?

I think pretty much everyone agrees with that.

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Filppula is better defensively than Helm (Helm is a better PKer, however). Bolland is better at 1 on 1 shutdown but Flip is better positionally; I'd give an edge to Bolland based off of last year. Pahlsson isn't what he used to be; agree on McClement, though, he's very underrated. Smithson isn't quite to Flip's level, and speaking of Nashville, I think Flip's probably ahead of Fisher at this point.

Datsyuk

Zetterberg

Toews

Kesler

M. Koivu

M. Richards

McClement

Bolland

J. Staal

Bergeron

Zajac

Malhotra

that's 12 I'd confidently put ahead of Flip, with a ~3 player cushion for a player or two I may have brainfarted on. Easily has a chance of slipping into the bottom half of my top 15.

Agree on Carter at one point, by the way, but though he's still been solid the last couple years, he seems very uninspired (not quite lazy) the last couple as well. Reminding me of Heatley in that regard.

John Madden, Marty Reasoner, Matt Cullen, Dominic Moore?

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John Madden, Marty Reasoner, Matt Cullen, Dominic Moore?

Madden: Not at this point

Cullen: Debatable. He's certainly solid 2-way.

Moore: Debatable; I'd potentially put him as one of my other top 15s.

Reasoner: Respectable, but not ahead of Flip, Moore, Cullen.

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What exactly do you disagree with? The fact that Filppula isn't a Selke contender right now?

I'll let you figure that out, because that assumption is very very wrong. I even said he wasn't a contender right now. You should start reading my posts better instead of the ones you merely quote. There are more to threads than just what people quote of yours.

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