55 replies to this topic

[Datsyerberger]

I've been musing over this for a while.

First, let me acknowledge a couple things:

1. A 'skill' guy like Filppula isn't going to win a Selke unless he's amazing (see: Datsyuk, Pavel). Physically aggressive play is still a necessary component to what many in the media consider to be defense (this is also why the majority of Norris candidates/winners are also physically-oriented guys and why pure skill winners are rare; see Lidstrom, Nicklas).

2. There are people I'd take over Filppula regardless of the above point.

That said, I've wondered how much Selke attention Filppula would get if Datsyuk and Zetterberg were more offense-oriented players. He can PK well and is one of the safest players at ES in the league right now, in my opinion. Most other players in a 2C role that put up his offensive numbers are considerably inferior defensively. Unfortunately, he has an extremely non-assertive style that tends not to get him noticed as much.

I can't see him winning with his style of play nor the shutdown ability of some of the guys out there, but I could see him with a handful of top 5 finishes and a outside-to-decent chance of a top 3 finish or two. Am I alone in this observation?

[kipwinger]

Michael Peca won it twice, and he was neither extremely skilled or extremely aggressive. Something like that is pretty rare though, and I think you're right that Filpulla's style is too subtle to get noticed. Maybe Peca only did because he was a Captain, I don't know. I definitely think Filpulla's good enough to be considered that high, but given everthing else I don't think he will be. I also that that there are many other guys in the league who could boast the same thing as Filpulla and wind up never getting the attention either (I'm looking at you David Legwand and Steve Sullivan).

[Datsyerberger]

Michael Peca won it twice, and he was neither extremely skilled or extremely aggressive. Something like that is pretty rare though, and I think you're right that Filpulla's style is too subtle to get noticed. Maybe Peca only did because he was a Captain, I don't know. I definitely think Filpulla's good enough to be considered that high, but given everthing else I don't think he will be. I also that that there are many other guys in the league who could boast the same thing as Filpulla and wind up never getting the attention either (I'm looking at you David Legwand and Steve Sullivan).

Personally, I look at the Selke group something like this:

Group A: 'The perennial challengers' (guys who are considered front-runners every year)

Datsyuk
J. Staal
Kesler

Group B: 'The runners-up' (Guys likely to be top 3 or be talked about a lot every year)

Zetterberg
M. Richards
M. Koivu

Group C: 'The also rans' (Guys who could or should get recognition, might show up in top 5 a few times)

Filppula
Bolland
Nielsen
Malhotra
Legwand
Fisher (pre-marriage)

Probably a couple others in each of group B and C, but I feel they serve as good examples.

[kipwinger]

Personally, I look at the Selke group something like this:

Group A: 'The perennial challengers' (guys who are considered front-runners every year)

Datsyuk
J. Staal
Kesler

Group B: 'The runners-up' (Guys likely to be top 3 or be talked about a lot every year)

Zetterberg
M. Richards
M. Koivu

Group C: 'The also rans' (Guys who could or should get recognition, might show up in top 5 a few times)

Filppula
Bolland
Nielsen
Malhotra
Legwand
Fisher (pre-marriage)

Probably a couple others in each of group B and C, but I feel they serve as good examples.

Yeah that looks about right, and to be really honest any of them are probably as good defensively as anybody else. For instance, I don't think Datsyuk is a better defensive forward than Z, Z gets the harder matchups and skates better, but Datsyuk has that take-away stat that is so insane impressive. Plus, he's Pavelf****** Datsyuk.

Side note, that Couture kid for SJ impressed the hell out of me with his defense in the playoffs.

Back to the topic at hand though, Filpulla is a hell of a defender, he's only getting better offensively, and he's 27. I'm obviously a fan.

[Datsyerberger]

Yeah that looks about right, and to be really honest any of them are probably as good defensively as anybody else. For instance, I don't think Datsyuk is a better defensive forward than Z, Z gets the harder matchups and skates better, but Datsyuk has that take-away stat that is so insane impressive. Plus, he's Pavelf****** Datsyuk.

Side note, that Couture kid for SJ impressed the hell out of me with his defense in the playoffs.

Back to the topic at hand though, Filpulla is a hell of a defender, he's only getting better offensively, and he's 27. I'm obviously a fan.

Yep, largely it's 'visual things' that separate the different groups. Z is a B and not an A because of, as you put it, Pavelf****** Datsyuk and his much flashier style. Staal is an A and not a B because he's a good ol' Canadian boy with that good ol' Canadian style that good ol' Canadians just love. Kesler is an A because of the market he plays in and a very in-your-face brand of hockey. Most of the guys in C just don't have enough highlight-power to stick out. M. Richards got a lot of showing as an A because of his huge amount of shootout goals combined with a similar style to 2 of the other guys in group A, but has since dropped down to B because of a choking team and lack of said shorthanded goals. Mikko Koivu is kinda the oddity here... everyone wants to love him but noone wants to vote for him. He's the guy that shows up first on every 'who should get Selke consideration but doesn't' lists.

[hooon]

Yeah that looks about right, and to be really honest any of them are probably as good defensively as anybody else. For instance, I don't think Datsyuk is a better defensive forward than Z, Z gets the harder matchups and skates better, but Datsyuk has that take-away stat that is so insane impressive. Plus, he's Pavelf****** Datsyuk.

Side note, that Couture kid for SJ impressed the hell out of me with his defense in the playoffs.

Back to the topic at hand though, Filpulla is a hell of a defender, he's only getting better offensively, and he's 27. I'm obviously a fan.

He is?

[kipwinger]

He is?

He had one point less than his career high and played in ten less games due to injury. Recovery time matters as well so factor that in. And he had 8 pts. in 11 playoff games. I think he's getting better. I don't think he's going to turn into some sort of an offensive superstar at any point. But I don't think 50 pts. is unrealistic for him. That plus his D skills for 3 million? I'd keep him around forever.

Everybody wants him to be a superstar...I don't get it.

Edited by kipwinger, 15 June 2011 - 02:59 PM.

[Datsyerberger]

He had one point less than his career high and played in ten less games due to injury. Recovery time matters as well so factor that in. And he had 8 pts. in 11 playoff games. I think he's getting better. I don't think he's going to turn into some sort of an offensive superstar at any point. But I don't think 50 pts. is unrealistic for him. That plus his D skills for 3 million? I'd keep him around forever.

Everybody wants him to be a superstar...I don't get it.

If Babs could just get him to shoot more he could be a 15-20g/30-35a sort of guy consistently. He's got a solid wrister... he'd both get more goals and generate more scoring chances via rebounds/scrambles. Biggest hole is in his game right now, imo.. shoots way too little for his ice time. Even Datsyuk shoots nearly double the amount Flip does with only a minute or two more ice time a game.

I'd be thrilled if Flip was putting up about 150-175 shots on goal a season.

Edited by Datsyerberger, 15 June 2011 - 03:03 PM.

[kipwinger]

Yeah I agree, but Pavel didn't shoot like that at 27 either. People don't really remember that about him, but for years everybody's been saying Pavel needs to shoot more. I'm not saying that Filpulla will ever be as good as Datsyuk, but I do think he'll continue to take more shots, and take over a bigger role in the scoring as well. He's got all the skills, with him it's just a mental thing, but I think he'll get there.

[hooon]

IMO he has pretty much stalled out offensively, I haven't seen anything to indicate he is improving in that area, despite annual expectations of him taking the next step. I know, I know... injuries, linemates, etc.


He is very solid defensively though, and underrated overall. I have no problem with what he brings to the team. Doubt he'll ever see a Selke nomination though.

[kipwinger]

IMO he has pretty much stalled out offensively, I haven't seen anything to indicate he is improving in that area, despite annual expectations of him taking the next step. I know, I know... injuries, linemates, etc.


He is very solid defensively though, and underrated overall. I have no problem with what he brings to the team. Doubt he'll ever see a Selke nomination though.

I'm with you for the most part, I don't think that he's going to light it up offensively. But I dont' think it's unrealistic to think he could average ten more points per year for the next four or five years. And that's nothing on his linemates, I think just by increasing your shooting by 50% you'd figure on ten extra points a season, given how few shots he takes.

[Datsyerberger]

IMO he has pretty much stalled out offensively, I haven't seen anything to indicate he is improving in that area, despite annual expectations of him taking the next step. I know, I know... injuries, linemates, etc.


He is very solid defensively though, and underrated overall. I have no problem with what he brings to the team. Doubt he'll ever see a Selke nomination though.

If Dats and Z are gone and Flip still has his legs at, say, 33-34, I could maybe see him getting a veteran nod and ending up somewhere in top 3 in votes. Outside chance,but could happen. Definitely not with Dats and Z around, though.

[wingslogo19]

Personally, I look at the Selke group something like this:

Group A: 'The perennial challengers' (guys who are considered front-runners every year)

Datsyuk
J. Staal
Kesler

Group B: 'The runners-up' (Guys likely to be top 3 or be talked about a lot every year)

Zetterberg
M. Richards
M. Koivu

Group C: 'The also rans' (Guys who could or should get recognition, might show up in top 5 a few times)

Filppula
Bolland
Nielsen
Malhotra
Legwand
Fisher (pre-marriage)
Probably a couple others in each of group B and C, but I feel they serve as good examples.

[ricky0034]

Personally, I look at the Selke group something like this:

Group A: 'The perennial challengers' (guys who are considered front-runners every year)

Datsyuk
J. Staal
Kesler

Group B: 'The runners-up' (Guys likely to be top 3 or be talked about a lot every year)

Zetterberg
M. Richards
M. Koivu

Group C: 'The also rans' (Guys who could or should get recognition, might show up in top 5 a few times)

Filppula
Bolland
Nielsen
Malhotra
Legwand
Fisher (pre-marriage)

Probably a couple others in each of group B and C, but I feel they serve as good examples.

pretty good list really,although I highly doubt Filppula will end up in the top 5 anytime soon purely because he's on the same team as Datsyuk and Zetterberg

i'd add Toews to group B probably,and obviously it's probably missing a couple in group C(although I can't think of them off the top of my head either)

[Crymson]

Michael Peca won it twice, and he was neither extremely skilled or extremely aggressive. Something like that is pretty rare though, and I think you're right that Filpulla's style is too subtle to get noticed. Maybe Peca only did because he was a Captain, I don't know. I definitely think Filpulla's good enough to be considered that high, but given everthing else I don't think he will be. I also that that there are many other guys in the league who could boast the same thing as Filpulla and wind up never getting the attention either (I'm looking at you David Legwand and Steve Sullivan).

Draper, Lehtinen, Madden and Peca have combined for seven of the last 13 Selke trophies, and none of them were major producers in the years in which they won it.

Also, it's Filppula, not Filpulla.

Edited by Crymson, 15 June 2011 - 05:18 PM.

[Z and D for the C]

I firmly believe that a Selke is in Filppula's future. At the very least, a runner up.

[Datsyerberger]

I firmly believe that a Selke is in Filppula's future. At the very least, a runner up.

Well, we know what you believe!

Seriously though, I'd be ecstatic if you turned out to be right.

[hooon]

Well, we know what you believe!

Seriously though, I'd be ecstatic if you turned out to be right.

I think we all would!

[Buppy]

IMO he has pretty much stalled out offensively, I haven't seen anything to indicate he is improving in that area, despite annual expectations of him taking the next step. I know, I know... injuries, linemates, etc.


He is very solid defensively though, and underrated overall. I have no problem with what he brings to the team. Doubt he'll ever see a Selke nomination though.

This year was as small step back I think, but last year was a definite improvement.

I think some people just got it into their head that he was supposed to 'break out', and compared to those expectations his modest improvements seem disappointing. Especially combined with the injury last year leaving his raw numbers low.

But I think the premise of the OP is way off. Skill and offense play a huge role in both the Selke and even moreso the Norris. Datsyuk, Brind'Amour, Yzerman were all high-scoring. Draper maybe wouldn't have won if he hadn't scored 24 goals in 67 games that year. Even guys like Lehtonen, Peca, and Madden have tended to win when their offense was better than normal. Norris almost always goes to a top scoring defenseman.

I doubt Flip will ever get any serious consideration. Offense isn't good enough, he doesn't stand out on faceoffs or takeaways, and he's not used in shut-down role. I could see Helm being a finalist and even winning a couple though.

[Shaman464]

I think other than Z and Dats the mostly likely player to win the Selke on the Wings in the next 5-7 years is Helm.. If he can continue his development of his offensive game, he may even take Flips job.