Top 3 Players in Each Team's History

[NvrFrgtRussian5 85]

I get what you mean and agree. But with that being said, does that mean you're saying Fedorov is having as big an impact for this organisation than Howe still is? Even into his 80s? Like I said I agree that time-frames affect things. But when talking about the 3 best players in this teams history, Howe arguably, hasn't left. He's still working with the Wings as their biggest face. As someone mentioned earlier, Yzerman wasn't stellar towards the end of his career but still gave everything each game, even with one leg, not to mention being the longest serving captain. If any on the generally approved list is vulnerable, then it's Lids, but consistently the best defenceman in the league, first European captain of a Stanley Cup winning team, 7 Norris trophies, an eventual Lady Byng nom, firt European to win the Conn Smyth. List goes on, not to mention he's a fantastic spokesperson for this organisation. I think Howe, Yzerman, Lidstrom is fairly solid as a top 3.

But love the out-of-the-box thinking. Immediately when I saw the topic I wondered how many people would include players like Fedorov or even Dats for his consistancy in an increasingly difficult league.

I hadn't thought about it in that way exactly. You have a great point. I think players like Howe and Yzerman will forever have a resonance over Detroit. They have set the standards for all others wearing the Winged wheel to follow.

It's such a hard question. Even if you minimize it to the last 10-20 years as I've done it's hard to leave so many influential players out.

[Guest 13GoWings40]

Howe has to be included for any top 3 list for Detroit. He was Wayne Gretzky before there was Wayne Gretzky. Beyond just influencing hockey in Detroit, he was a major superstar for the league in the 50's. Before Crosby vs. Ovechkin, there was Howe vs. Richard. Howe was considered the greatest NHL player ever at the time of his retirement and in a time when a majority of the leagues current teams weren't in existence, he was an international superstar. You just can't ignore that kind of impression left on the game in my opinion.

[Barrie 900]

Red Wings:

1. Howe

2. Yzerman

3. Lidstrom

No offense to Lidstrom (and I don't think he'd be offended), but it was Yzerman who helped make Lidstrom and everyone else on the 1997, 1998, and 2002 teams Champions. It was his work ethic that guys like Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Holmstrom, Ozzie, etc. carried into the 2008 Cup. Yzerman's 2002 playoffs was only something you'd see in the movies.

[Reds4Life 51]

Red Wings:

1. Howe

2. Yzerman

3. Lidstrom

No offense to Lidstrom (and I don't think he'd be offended), but it was Yzerman who helped make Lidstrom and everyone else on the 1997, 1998, and 2002 teams Champions. It was his work ethic that guys like Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Holmstrom, Ozzie, etc. carried into the 2008 Cup. Yzerman's 2002 playoffs was only something you'd see in the movies.

Yes, Yzerman did all he could have done, but he was not even the best forward on the team (Fedorov), let alone player. Steve Y gets overrated by Wings fans (understandable, but still wrong), but Lidstrom is very easily better all-time player.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Reds4Life

[xtrememachine1 795]

Yes, Yzerman did all he could have done, but he was not even the best forward on the team (Fedorov), let alone player. Steve Y gets overrated by Wings fans (understandable, but still wrong), but Lidstrom is very easily better all-time player.

That's debatable. I debate it in my own head all the time. lol Based on awards and accomplishments, Lidstrom has to be considered one of the best of all time. However, Yzerman was in his prime at the same time as Lemieux and Gretzky. He missed out on a lot of scoring titles and MVPs because of that and was viewed as 3rd best back then. Would Lidstrom have been as successful if he played in his prime during the same time as Bobby Orr and Doug Harvey? Plus, Yzerman played 10 years without Scotty Bowman as coach. Lidstrom was very fortunate to always be on a talented, Cup contending team. So while, Lidstrom is a better player in terms of awards won and accomplishments, I think saying he's more talented is an illusion. Stevie definitely had a greater impact on the franchise than Nick.

BTW, how nice is it to have a problem like this where we have too many great players and we can't decide on who's the best? lol

[toby91_ca 620]

However, Yzerman was in his prime at the same time as Lemieux and Gretzky. He missed out on a lot of scoring titles and MVPs because of that and was viewed as 3rd best back then.

While I hear a similar statement from a lot of people, it actually isn't true. Yzerman has finished in the 5 in scoring 3 times in his entire career, one 4th place finish and two 3rd place finishes. One 3rd place finish was behind Gretzky and Lemieux, the other was behind Gretzky and Messier. He also had 3 other top ten finishes (7th, 8th and 10th) in his career. So, while a lot of people look back and say he was considered the 3rd best behind those guys, I don't remember a lot of those thoughts back in the late 80s/early 90s.

The kid in me wants to say Yzerman was the better player as I have watched him for about 15 years, since I was about 10 years old or so (I may be off in years and age, but you get the point). However, now, looking back, you have to consider the hardware that Lidstrom has accumulated...it's tough to ignore.

[Reds4Life 51]

That's debatable. I debate it in my own head all the time. lol Based on awards and accomplishments, Lidstrom has to be considered one of the best of all time. However, Yzerman was in his prime at the same time as Lemieux and Gretzky. He missed out on a lot of scoring titles and MVPs because of that and was viewed as 3rd best back then. Would Lidstrom have been as successful if he played in his prime during the same time as Bobby Orr and Doug Harvey? Plus, Yzerman played 10 years without Scotty Bowman as coach. Lidstrom was very fortunate to always be on a talented, Cup contending team. So while, Lidstrom is a better player in terms of awards won and accomplishments, I think saying he's more talented is an illusion. Stevie definitely had a greater impact on the franchise than Nick.

BTW, how nice is it to have a problem like this where we have too many great players and we can't decide on who's the best? lol

Yzerman was one dimensional player when he had his big scoring seasons. Sure, he was 3rd best scoring center in the league twice, but not top3 player. Other than those two big years, he has only a few more top10 scoring finishes. Later on, he had to sacrifice his offense to become great two-way player.

Steve Y is basically neck and neck with Joe Sakic, though in the end, I'd have to say Sakic is better all-time player (mainly due to better longetivity for Sakic), but it is close.

Lidstrom is the best player of the last decade, hands down. Steve may have had greater impact on the franchise off the ice (marketing etc.), but on the ice, Lidstrom has been the most important player since Gordie Howe. I mean prime Lidstrom equals 28+ minutes of flawless defense and excellent offensive support. Night in and night out. It's pretty hard to top that.

How about this:

Peak: edge Yzerman

Prime: edge Lidstrom

Longetivity: Lidstrom by far

Hardware: Lidstrom

Sorry, but I have to put St. Nick ahead of Steve Y when it comes to best Red Wings of all-time. That said, Steve Y is the more flashy player, and his heroics in playoffs are legendary. I'd say he is a better Captain than Lids, but not the better player. And yes, we are damn lucky that we had the chance to watch both players in Red and White

Edited September 13, 2011 by Reds4Life

[Barrie 900]

BTW, how nice is it to have a problem like this where we have too many great players and we can't decide on who's the best? lol

Agree! The cool thing is there's no right answer. I understand and appreciate the points for both Yzerman and Lidstrom as the better player.

My points are probably unfair to Lidstrom since Yzerman is my "man crush"

[egroen 384]

Agree! The cool thing is there's no right answer. I understand and appreciate the points for both Yzerman and Lidstrom as the better player.

My points are probably unfair to Lidstrom since Yzerman is my "man crush"

Maybe my opinion is extreme - but I think Lidstrom is a far better hockey player than Yzerman. Lidstrom is one of the best defensive defenseman in history, yet still managed to be the best offensive defenseman for a decade.

To match the dizzying heights Lifstrom accomplished, Yzerman needed to match his offensive heights with his defensive heights, for a decade... We're talking 130 pt seasons with Selke-worthy two-way play. Lidstrom basically had Fedorov's '94 Hart Season (120 pts and a Selke) for an entire decade.

I understand Yzerman is far more to Detroit than his on-ice performance, but he quite simply and decisively is not as good of a hockey player as Lidstrom, or Howe. It's funny Lidstrom's all-time uniqueness and placement tends to get underrated by his own fan base, that just can not accept a defensan's importance over a forward's or literally 'anyone' over Yzerman.

IMO, Lidstrom is literally a contender for Top 10 player of all-time.

Edited September 14, 2011 by egroen

[Barrie 900]

Maybe my opinion is extreme - but I think Lidstrom is a far better hockey player than Yzerman. Lidstrom is one of the best defensive defenseman in history, yet still managed to be the best offensive defenseman for a decade.

To match the dizzying heights Lifstrom accomplished, Yzerman needed to match his offensive heights with his defensive heights, for a decade... We're talking 130 pt seasons with Selke-worthy two-way play. Lidstrom basically had Fedorov's '94 Hart Season (120 pts and a Selke) for an entire decade.

I understand Yzerman is far more to Detroit than his on-ice performance, but he quite simply and decisively is not as good of a hockey player as Lidstrom, or Howe. It's funny Lidstrom's all-time uniqueness and placement tends to get underrated by his own fan base, that just can not accept a defensan's importance over a forward's or literally 'anyone' over Yzerman.

IMO, Lidstrom is literally a contender for Top 10 player of all-time.

Good points. Even Lidstrom can be overlooked by us Wings fans, myself included.

[eva unit zero 271]

Avalanche/Nordiques

1. Sakic

2. Forsberg

3. Roy

Blackhawks

1. Mikita

2. Hull

3. Esposito

Blue Jackets

1. Nash

2. Klesla

3. Vyborny

Blues

1. Hull

2. MacInnis

3. Federko

Bruins

1. Orr

2. Bourque

3. Esposito

Canadiens

1. Beliveau

2. Harvey

3. Richard

Canucks

1. Naslund

2. Bure

3. McLean

Capitals

1. Ovechkin

2. Bondra

3. Gartner

Coyotes/Jets

1. Hawerchuk

2. Numminen

3. Steen

Devils

1. Brodeur

2. Stevens

3. Elias

Ducks

1. Selanne

2. Niedermayer

3. Kariya

Flames

1. MacInnis

2. Iginla

3. Fleury

Flyers

1. Lindros

2. Howe

3. Clarke

Hurricanes/Whalers

1. Francis

2. Whitney

3. Ward

Islanders

1. Trottier

2. Potvin

3. Bossy

Jets/Thrashers

1. Kovalchuk

2. Hossa

3. Kozlov

Kings

1. Dionne

2. Gretzky

3. Robitaille

Leafs

1. Broda

2. Conacher

3. Apps

Lightning

1. St. Louis

2. Richards

3. Lecavalier

Oilers

1. Gretzky

2. Coffey

3. Kurri

Panthers

1. Jokinen

2. Bure

3. Vanbiesbrouck

Penguins

1. Lemieux

2. Jagr

3. Crosby

Predators

1. Vokoun

2. Timonen

3. Weber

Rangers

1. Bathgate

2. Leetch

3. Giacomin

Red Wings

1. Howe

2. Yzerman

3. Lidstrom

Sabres

1. Hasek

2. Perreault

3. Housley

Senators

1. Alfredsson

2. Redden

3. Phillips

Sharks

1. Marleau

2. Nabokov

3. Thornton

Stars/North Stars

1. Modano

2. Zubov

3. Broten

Wild

1. Gaborik

2. Backstrom

3. Koivu

Edited September 22, 2011 by eva unit zero

[eva unit zero 271]

Anyone consider derian hatcher on the stars? Nieuwendyk could be there with the flames too. Counting both sedin twins as one person cracks me up.

I thought about Hatcher and Nieuwendyk, but ultimately Zubov and Broten both played with the franchises for a longer time and put up better numbers.

The Sedins I don't care much for. Their playoff numbers are a ******* joke. Bure scored over a point per game in the playoffs as a Canuck. His 1994 playoffs were amazing and he was one game from being the first European to win the Smythe trophy, long before Lidstrom won it in 2002. Keep in mind that he hardly had any talent around him except Linden, who didn't even play on the same line as him. Neither Sedin twink is even remotely close to averaging a point per game in the playoffs, despite having lots of talent around them for many years now. They're playoff chokers.

Bure had a lot more than Linden; Geoff Courtnall and Cliff Ronning were his linemates most of that year (one of the fastest lines ever put together) and they both were bigger offensive forces than Linden. Murray Craven was just as solid offensively as Linden, and both Craven and Linden were among the league's top two-way players. Jyrki Lumme and Jiri Slegr were playing the blueline, and the team acquired Jeff Brown late in the season in an interesting situation; Petr Nedved had refused to report to Vancouver, and late in the year signed with St. Louis - because the Blues were ALWAYS off signing RFAs, like Scott Stevens and Brendan Shanahan. The league awarded Craig Janney to Vancouver as compensation. Janney refused to play in Vancouver, so he was traded back to St. Louis for Jeff Brown, Bret Hedican, and a pick. Brown was one of the top offensive defensemen in the league, and scored 15 points in the playoffs that year. If that deal isn't made, Vancouver is out in the first round.

Nieuwendyk doesn't make Calgary's top three. He doesn't even make the top three if you narrow it down to the time he was with the team; he might not even be in the top five. Roberts and Fleury were better, MacInnis was better, and Suter and Vernon could be argued for. Suter was a top defenseman for a while and Vernon was an elite goalie. Nieuwendyk was never a top-end forward.

As for Derian Hatcher... seriously? Top three in Stars history? I would have taken Zubov, Sydor, and even Matvichuk over Hatcher. And that's just defensemen who were on his team in his best years. There's also Mark Tinordi, who has a case. Forwards, you've got Modano and Broten, plus you can't leave out Dino Ciccarelli or Brian Bellows. Bobby Smith could be tacked on as well. In goal, you've got Marty Turco with a strong 500 games and Ed Belfour with a very good 300 games and a Cup. Does Hatcher even crack the Stars' top TEN? I can't justify it. One season where he had some offensive production and people thought he was some kind of wunderkind does not make him one of the best players in franchise history. It would be like calling Kris Draper one of the league's best two-way players in his prime. He simply wasn't. One good offensive year doesn't make an excellent defensive player into a two-way player.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Eva, our lists aren't that much different, but I have to argue two points.

First, no way is Brad Richards better than St. Louis and Lecavalier in Lightning history.

Second, your uber-fascination with Mark Howe is getting absurd. You really think he was a better Flyer than Bernie Parent (who wasn't even on your list) and Bobby Clarke? No way in hell.

Thanks for taking the time to put your own list together, though. I know it takes a long ass time.

[eva unit zero 271]

Eva, our lists aren't that much different, but I have to argue two points.

First, no way is Brad Richards better than St. Louis and Lecavalier in Lightning history.

Second, your uber-fascination with Mark Howe is getting absurd. You really think he was a better Flyer than Bernie Parent (who wasn't even on your list) and Bobby Clarke? No way in hell.

Thanks for taking the time to put your own list together, though. I know it takes a long ass time.

Actually, Richards is supposed to be second. I was throwing around what I felt the order should be, and forgot to change it. As for Howe, he was as good as Bourque or Coffey through the 1980s, and retired in the mid 1990s Parent had two great seasons, and was otherwise a very good goaltender. But he was not one of the top three goaltenders in the NHL during his career; Ken Dryden, Ed Giacomin, Tony Esposito, Gump Worsley, Jacques Plante all played through a significant portion of Parent's career and were considered better goaltenders. Parent was excellent, but ranking him based on his 74 and 75 runs would be equivalent to saying that Tim Thomas is one of the three best Bruins based on his two Vezina years and one Conn Smythe. Howe was one of the top three defensemen in the NHL during his career, and should have won the 1983 Norris. Parent was named First Team twice, and Second Team no times. Howe was named First Team three times, with no Second Team selections.

As for other Flyers, I also thought about Tim Kerr and Ron Hextall in addition to Parent as guys who were left off. I was tempted to add Brad McCrimmon as well as a tribute, as well as the fact that he made up the second half of the best defensive pairing of the 80s.

[egroen 384]

Howe and McCrimmon were the best defensive line in the 80s... like Weber and Suter today.

Howe was a better version of Larry Murphy and McCrimmon was a rock defensively. About time Howe got into the HHoF (he was also a Hart finalist)!

Edited September 22, 2011 by egroen

[eva unit zero 271]

Howe and McCrimmon were the best defensive line in the 80s... like Weber and Suter today.

Howe was a better version of Larry Murphy and McCrimmon was a rock defensively. About time Howe got into the HHoF (he was also a Hart finalist)!

Too bad the Howe/McCrimmon magic didn't work in 1992-93 when they were both Wings. Although if it had, the Coffey trade would probably have never been made. Which brings about all kinds of interesting "ifs" into the discussion. If Carson stays, do the Wings get Larionov? Perhaps Carson is traded with some other piece for a guy like Shanahan or maybe Gary Roberts and Primeau stays put? Maybe Lidstrom is traded?

[egroen 384]

Too bad the Howe/McCrimmon magic didn't work in 1992-93 when they were both Wings. Although if it had, the Coffey trade would probably have never been made. Which brings about all kinds of interesting "ifs" into the discussion. If Carson stays, do the Wings get Larionov? Perhaps Carson is traded with some other piece for a guy like Shanahan or maybe Gary Roberts and Primeau stays put? Maybe Lidstrom is traded?

They were pretty long in the tooth by then so I doubt the Wings would have been making too many long term plans around them. Though Lidstrom credits both of them, especially McCrimmon, with having a big impact on his game. I was really surprised McCrimmon never really worked out as the defensive coach, given his influence on Lidstrom and the fact he was so great defensively himself.

I always wonder if the Wings had drafted Jagr instead of Primeau. We'd probably never see Shanahan, but who cares in that scenario.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Actually, Richards is supposed to be second. I was throwing around what I felt the order should be, and forgot to change it. As for Howe, he was as good as Bourque or Coffey through the 1980s, and retired in the mid 1990s Parent had two great seasons, and was otherwise a very good goaltender. But he was not one of the top three goaltenders in the NHL during his career; Ken Dryden, Ed Giacomin, Tony Esposito, Gump Worsley, Jacques Plante all played through a significant portion of Parent's career and were considered better goaltenders. Parent was excellent, but ranking him based on his 74 and 75 runs would be equivalent to saying that Tim Thomas is one of the three best Bruins based on his two Vezina years and one Conn Smythe. Howe was one of the top three defensemen in the NHL during his career, and should have won the 1983 Norris. Parent was named First Team twice, and Second Team no times. Howe was named First Team three times, with no Second Team selections.

As for other Flyers, I also thought about Tim Kerr and Ron Hextall in addition to Parent as guys who were left off. I was tempted to add Brad McCrimmon as well as a tribute, as well as the fact that he made up the second half of the best defensive pairing of the 80s.

Parent had more than just two good seasons. Those Cup years were his best, but you discredit his other seasons too easily. Also, I don't think Howe was as good as Coffey or Bourque, and apparently the Norris voters didn't think so either. He is somewhat overlooked, but I don't put him in the same class as those players. Also, if longevity is what you were shooting for, than Lindros didn't have as many productive seasons in Philly as Bobby Clarke. Yet you put him first ahead of his former boss.

The guy I really snubbed on my Flyers list is Bill Barber. The guy scored 40+ goals five times as a Flyer. He would be my next in line.

[toby91_ca 620]

Actually, Richards is supposed to be second. I was throwing around what I felt the order should be, and forgot to change it. As for Howe, he was as good as Bourque or Coffey through the 1980s, and retired in the mid 1990s Parent had two great seasons, and was otherwise a very good goaltender. But he was not one of the top three goaltenders in the NHL during his career; Ken Dryden, Ed Giacomin, Tony Esposito, Gump Worsley, Jacques Plante all played through a significant portion of Parent's career and were considered better goaltenders. Parent was excellent, but ranking him based on his 74 and 75 runs would be equivalent to saying that Tim Thomas is one of the three best Bruins based on his two Vezina years and one Conn Smythe. Howe was one of the top three defensemen in the NHL during his career, and should have won the 1983 Norris. Parent was named First Team twice, and Second Team no times. Howe was named First Team three times, with no Second Team selections.

As for other Flyers, I also thought about Tim Kerr and Ron Hextall in addition to Parent as guys who were left off. I was tempted to add Brad McCrimmon as well as a tribute, as well as the fact that he made up the second half of the best defensive pairing of the 80s.

You know, I knew you had a lot of love for Mark Howe. There's is absolutely no question he was a great player, but I think you may be the only person on the planet that actually think he's a better Flyer than Bobby Clarke, that's just insane.

I won't bother mentioning anything about your comment that he was as good as Bourque in the 80s.

[eva unit zero 271]

You know, I knew you had a lot of love for Mark Howe. There's is absolutely no question he was a great player, but I think you may be the only person on the planet that actually think he's a better Flyer than Bobby Clarke, that's just insane.

I won't bother mentioning anything about your comment that he was as good as Bourque in the 80s.

For the span Howe was a Flyer, only Bourque and Coffey were better, and not by much. And Howe's best years were the early 80s in Hartford, and the mid 80s in Philly. As for the comparison to Clarke, I'll put it another way. Clarke averaged 1.06 points per game as a Flyer. Howe averaged 0.81 as a Flyer. This of course doesn't speak to defensive performance. Modern day comparables to their styles and career performance with the Flyers would be, IMHO, Jarome Iginla and Nicklas Lidstrom. Iginla is of course a little bit goal-happy compared to Clarke, but other than that it takes a shoehorn and a lot of force to find modern examples that fit. Ryan Getzlaf is another good example, but he is a bit too pass happy, and his scoring numbers are well beyond the provided information.

[egroen 384]

In all honesty, Clarke was probably better defensively than Howe... despite their positions. Clarke is acknowledged as arguably the greatest defensive forward to ever play the game, and did win two Harts over Bobby Orr. Total cheap-shotting bastard, who hid behind his teammates when called out though.

His results according to coaches polls at the time:

Best backchecker 3rd 1981

Best checker 1st 1974

Best checker 1st 1976

Best defensive forward 2nd 1981

Best forechecker 1st 1981

Best on faceoffs 2nd 1974

Best on faceoffs 1st 1976

Best on faceoffs 1st 1979

Best on faceoffs 1st 1981

Best on faceoffs 4th 1984

Best penalty killer T-1st 1974

Best penalty killer 1st 1976

Best playmaker 3rd 1974

Best playmaker 1st 1976

First player to build team around 1st 1976

Hardest worker 1st 1971

Hardest worker 1st 1974

Hardest worker 1st 1976

Hardest worker 1st 1979

Hardest worker 2nd 1984

Smartest player 3rd 1974

Smartest player 2nd 1976

Smartest player 4th 1979

[eva unit zero 271]

In all honesty, Clarke was probably better defensively than Howe... despite their positions. Clarke is acknowledged as arguably the greatest defensive forward to ever play the game, and did win two Harts over Bobby Orr. Total cheap-shotting bastard, who hid behind his teammates when called out though.

His results according to coaches polls at the time:

Best backchecker 3rd 1981

Best checker 1st 1974

Best checker 1st 1976

Best defensive forward 2nd 1981

Best forechecker 1st 1981

Best on faceoffs 2nd 1974

Best on faceoffs 1st 1976

Best on faceoffs 1st 1979

Best on faceoffs 1st 1981

Best on faceoffs 4th 1984

Best penalty killer T-1st 1974

Best penalty killer 1st 1976

Best playmaker 3rd 1974

Best playmaker 1st 1976

First player to build team around 1st 1976

Hardest worker 1st 1971

Hardest worker 1st 1974

Hardest worker 1st 1976

Hardest worker 1st 1979

Hardest worker 2nd 1984

Smartest player 3rd 1974

Smartest player 2nd 1976

Smartest player 4th 1979

Howe was always very good defensively, even after his offense tapered off into the 90s. And Clarke wasn't even the best defensive forward of his era; it's pretty much agreed upon that Bob Gainey deserves that spot - he won the Selke a few in a row when it was created, and people say that it was created FOR him because of how good he was defensively. That's a pretty strong argument in the Gainey vs. Clarke debate.

Clarke was an elite center, Howe was an elite defenseman. It's really a matter of who you think was better. I think it's Howe. You think it's Clarke. We're probably not going to change each other's minds.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Except Clarke was their captain and the heart and soul of the Flyers. He captained them to consecutive Stanley Cups in an era where there were more skilled teams than Philly. He was the face of that franchise for a long time.

Howe was a really good defenseman, but he hardly carried the Flyers or was considered the cornerstone of their franchise.

[eva unit zero 271]

Except Clarke was their captain and the heart and soul of the Flyers. He captained them to consecutive Stanley Cups in an era where there were more skilled teams than Philly. He was the face of that franchise for a long time.

Howe was a really good defenseman, but he hardly carried the Flyers or was considered the cornerstone of their franchise.

Howe was a Hart contender throughout his prime in Hartford and Philly, in an era with Gretzky and Lemieux. This is despite the fact that defensemen and especially goaltenders are typically given much less consideration for the Hart than they deserve. Lidstrom, Bourque and Hasek are excellent recent examples of this. Ray Bourque deserved the Hart in 1990 and 1999, but received neither. Nicklas Lidstrom deserved it in 2004, but did not receive it. And Hasek deserved it for 1996 (didn't win), 1997 (won), and 1998 (won) and should have been a finalist every year from 1994 through 2001.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Howe was a Hart contender throughout his prime in Hartford and Philly, in an era with Gretzky and Lemieux. This is despite the fact that defensemen and especially goaltenders are typically given much less consideration for the Hart than they deserve. Lidstrom, Bourque and Hasek are excellent recent examples of this. Ray Bourque deserved the Hart in 1990 and 1999, but received neither. Nicklas Lidstrom deserved it in 2004, but did not receive it. And Hasek deserved it for 1996 (didn't win), 1997 (won), and 1998 (won) and should have been a finalist every year from 1994 through 2001.

Howe was never a serious contender for the Hart trophy throughout the 80's. There was no way he was ever going to win one.

In any case, I didn't say he wasn't good. I just don't think he's a better all time Flyer than Clarke and don't believe he was as instrumental to that franchise and its history.