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jroc86

Bouwmeester opinions? Potential trades? *merged*

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wow, i really shouldnt even respond to this as it is just ridiculous to imply that jonathon ericsson is better than jay bouwmeester... and kindl MIGHT be? i love kindl and hope he takes a huge step, but all he is right now is a first round dud with 17 career points. i am all about differing opinions. if someone wants to make an argument for white or quincey thats one thing. but jakub kindl? either you have very little grasp of hockey or are just trolling. either way, it serves no purpose to the discussion.

but i did want to clarify the plus/minus thing. in my first post, i noted that this past season it was terrible, and when i said it was decent i was talking about since the lockout. just about all the numbers i gave was since the lockout which i believe is representative of his game. in those 7 years, he is a combined -10. thats not too bad considering the teams he played on.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the Flames haven't made the playoffs since he's been there and that the Panthers have after he left

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I don't think it's a coincidence that the Flames haven't made the playoffs since he's been there and that the Panthers have after he left

i dont think its a coincidence you had to totally change the point...

its just luck. the reason the panthers didnt deal him at the deadline the year he left was because they were so close to making the playoffs. for several years they have been one of those young up and coming teams. but it really was tallon bringing in the variety of free agents the last year or two that allowed them to develop. so its not as if he was holding them back from making it while he was there. as i stated before, his numbers there were top notch in the 4 years after the lockout.

conversely, calgary has been a team on the decline since their cup run in 04. they have never really been a legit contender and havent won a playoff series since the lockout regardless of whether they had bouwmeester. i still readily admit that bouwmeester has been disappointing for them, but to imply its his fault the flames missed the playoffs and the panthers made it, well thats as silly as suggested jakub kindl is as good as jay bouwmeester...

keep going though, your absurdities are fun to read! i can't wait to see what your next totally unrelated counter point will be! :)

Edited by dobbles
Hey man nice shot! likes this

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i dont think its a coincidence you had to totally change the point...

its just luck. the reason the panthers didnt deal him at the deadline the year he left was because they were so close to making the playoffs. for several years they have been one of those young up and coming teams. but it really was tallon bringing in the variety of free agents the last year or two that allowed them to develop. so its not as if he was holding them back from making it while he was there. as i stated before, his numbers there were top notch in the 4 years after the lockout.

conversely, calgary has been a team on the decline since their cup run in 04. they have never really been a legit contender and havent won a playoff series since the lockout regardless of whether they had bouwmeester. i still readily admit that bouwmeester has been disappointing for them, but to imply its his fault the flames missed the playoffs and the panthers made it, well thats as silly as suggested jakub kindl is as good as jay bouwmeester...

keep going though, your absurdities are fun to read! i can't wait to see what your next totally unrelated counter point will be! :)

That wasn't changing the point.

I notice that you are a Calgary Flame. Trying to convince us we should trade for him?

A defenseman who screws up a lot because he avoids contact is a liability no matter how fast, big and skilled he is and would be even more of a liability in the playoffs. I think the Flames would have made the playoffs with Phaneuf instead of Bouwmeester.

Just in case you missed this earlier in the thread

Edited by Johnz96

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That wasn't changing the point.

I notice that you are a Calgary Flame. Trying to convince us we should trade for him?

A defenseman who screws up a lot because he avoids contact is a liability no matter how fast, big and skilled he is and would be even more of a liability in the playoffs. I think the Flames would have made the playoffs with Phaneuf instead of Bouwmeester.

Just in case you missed this earlier in the thread

once again changing the point! now its about what team i am a fan of!!! just so you know, thats a quad cities flames logo, a now defunct ahl team that i happened to be a season ticket holder for because i lived in illinois. thats actually one of the only reasons i have a strong opinion about bouwmeester because calgary is a team i had an interest in previously. i was never a fan per say, but i followed guys like eric nystrom, brandon prust, dustin boyd, adam pardy, and warren peters as they worked their way into the league. its also a reason i have strong opinions on guys like ericsson, howard, quincey, leino, helm, abdelkader, etc. because i got to see them live from the front row 8-10 times a year for 2 seasons. not that it matters, but i have been a fan of the wings since learning about hockey in the early 90's. (the last couple years of the norris division)

and peca is a blowhard. i value him as an analyst as much as i value eklund for personnel moves... sure he played the game so he has some credibility, but he comes off more like a guy thats butt-hurt than anything else.

its no secret that bouwmeester isnt physical. but neither was lidstrom. and while he certainly isnt as skilled as nick was, he would be a pretty decent fill in. and as i have stated before, he is probably the only one close to being available as a top pairing guy.

and i doubt the flames would have made the playoffs either way. its not like phaneuf has exactly been a success in toronto either. thankfully for the leafs, they only gave up spare parts for dion, or else i am sure he would be resented just as much as bouwmeester is in calgary.

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Kronwall, Quincey, and Ericsson are better

Smith and Kindl might be

Solid +/-??? He was a -21 last year and is -54 in his career

I get the arguments for not wanting Bouwmeester, but this is just silly. He's overpaid, hasn't been productive offensively and will likely cost a lot, but he's way better than everyone on that list with the exception of Kronwall. I have a lot of hope and confidence in Smith turning out to be very good, but Bouwmeester has already established a pretty solid NHL career. Kindl has hardly shown any development, Quincey/Ericsson have been mostly third pairing guys that are going to get tested especially this season in a much larger role. Bouwmeester has played top-pairing minutes for a long time.

The Red Wings defense would be much better having Bouwmeester around next season. It's just a matter of whether the asking price is at all reasonable, which I highly doubt to be the case.

Edited by GoWings1905
F.Michael and dobbles like this

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Quincey/Ericsson are solid third pairing guys that are going to get tested especially this season in a much larger role. Bouwmeester has played top-pairing minutes for a long time.

Just want to correct this notion on Quincey. He's more than a third pairing, he led his team in ice-team on the top pairing at 23:36 a night in 09-10, and 20+ each and every night since, he played more than Stuart last season, and just a minute behind Kronwall, and 4 minutes more than Ericsson. Quincey is also a productive offensive guy, even with how he struggled with us last season he still was well within top 60 defenseman in the league points-wise, so at the very least you are getting top 4 offensive numbers, and a decent size/skating ability player.

Quincey was bad with us, but the potential is there for him to be a top pairing guy, don't forget he's still only 26, and has had a top .54 ppg(top 30) season in 70 games which was 08-09 with similar numbers to Letang, Burns, Edler and Pitkanen.

Edited by Carman

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Carman makes a very good point about Quincey. Coming over at the deadline, he may have been feeling pressure to try to do too much, something that Lidstrom's injury could very easily have exacerbated. With the benefit of training camp and preseason with the Wings, I think a lot of people will be pleasantly surprised.

As far as Bouwmeester, I would NOT give up Fil, Smith, Nyquist, or Mule. His salary is very high for what he brings, imho. I don't think he would suck here, but he isn't a player I'd trade a lot for and make a hole elsewhere to acquire. Emmerton, Mursak or Tatar, and a mid round pick I'd pull the trigger, but I highly doubt Feaster would take that, even if you don't consider the apparent Red Wings surcharge that almost every GM would add to any potential trade.

Edited by TheXym

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I can't believe there are 10 pages in this thread. He is a dud, and he wouldn't be worth 6.8 or whatever million per, even as UFA. I would not condone signing him at that hit, let alone giving up assets in a trade.

Our defense leaves much to be desired, but lets be serious for a second... BOUWMEESTER? Why him and why now? Could've had Jeff Finger.

Subban for Fil/Tatar had half of us crying, so why even consider J-Bo?

I'm a bit over the whole 'in Holland we trust' thing, but if our defense truly is bad enough to dump Filppula or Franzen for a turd like J-Bo I would hope that Holland would do something to at least stop the bleeding until the trade deadline. I would also hope that it would be a solution a bit more clever than this. Bouwmeester is lose/lose and there's no way around it... Crap I'd rather gamble on Colaiacovo.

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defense truly is bad enough to dump Filppula or Franzen for a turd like J-Bo I would

I'm pretty sure even the people that like Bouwmeester don't want to give up these assets. I would only do it for players not on the roster, or non top six guys.

Even with his enormous cap hit, he's still a top pairing guy, and it's not like we would use the whole 13 million anyways. Bouwmeester is overpaid, and overrated, no one is denying that, but that doesn't make him a bad defenseman, it just makes him a bad #1 guy.

Edited by Carman

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I'm pretty sure even the people that like Bouwmeester don't want to give up these assets. I would only do it for players not on the roster, or non top six guys.

Even with his enormous cap hit, he's still a top pairing guy, and it's not like we would use the whole 13 million anyways. Bouwmeester is overpaid, and overrated, no one is denying that, but that doesn't make him a bad defenseman, it just makes him a bad #1 guy.

He's finished + only ONCE in his career, and last year finished -21. How can anybody with those kind of stats be considered "a top defenseman".

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Just want to correct this notion on Quincey. He's more than a third pairing, he led his team in ice-team on the top pairing at 23:36 a night in 09-10, and 20+ each and every night since, he played more than Stuart last season, and just a minute behind Kronwall, and 4 minutes more than Ericsson. Quincey is also a productive offensive guy, even with how he struggled with us last season he still was well within top 60 defenseman in the league points-wise, so at the very least you are getting top 4 offensive numbers, and a decent size/skating ability player.

Quincey was bad with us, but the potential is there for him to be a top pairing guy, don't forget he's still only 26, and has had a top .54 ppg(top 30) season in 70 games which was 08-09 with similar numbers to Letang, Burns, Edler and Pitkanen.

I definitely see your point with Quincey, but he has to establish himself as a top-four player in Detroit and his performance in his return didn't leave me with much confidence going forward. I think a full season with the team will likely benefit Quincey, but I honestly don't see his ceiling being a top-pairing defenseman. He's certainly capable offensively of putting up numbers, though I haven't seen a whole lot from him in his own end that supports playing big minutes against an opponent's top line.

I thought Quincey and White especially were both brutal in the Nashville series. I have a lot more faith in Ericsson to be reliable this season than either of those two. The problem right now is the Red Wings don't have enough Ericsson's on defense, as much dismay as that may cause certain people. Bouwmeester doesn't really fit the category of defensive d-man either, but he at least has experience in a top-paring role. If Quincey is indeed going to take on more minutes (which seems like a foregone conclusion) he also needs to sharply cut down on taking bad penalties.

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He's finished + only ONCE in his career, and last year finished -21. How can anybody with those kind of stats be considered "a top defenseman".

He's not an elite defenseman. Flames fans protest otherwise these days; it's funny, given that they usually spend time whining about him instead.

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I don't think this whole debate is as irrelivant or stupid as some have said. Of all the hair brained, half cocked ideas thrown around here I finally think this one may make sense. If your not going to land a dominant #1, what's wrong with stacking your team with #2 through 6's ? His salary is high, not nearly as much after the last month has played out. Were not eating all the cap room, especially depending on what you may subtract. For what he has produced compaired to what his potential on our team could be, I'll be optimistic and predict slightly higher than his average #'s with relative dependablity thrown in. Two years is perfect to see what you've got, his age and the point he is in his career are plusses. The bigger issue than his price now is what it could go to. Let's say between camp and Oct./Nov. one of our top 6 D goes down for part/most/all of the season (or any other team's). His trade value gets REALLY stupid then. Right now brings the most sane market value, if you want to call it that. I'd be more comfortable with better depth on defence than all of our depth up front.

Which brings me to the price we'd have to pay. I won't advocate selling the farm, especially for Bouwmeester, but I honestly belive it's about time for this organization to roll the dice a bit. To pull from another thread, managment has gotten too comfortable. When was the last time we've done something thats raised any eyebrows? It seems like we are the place where you come, play, grow old and retire. Players are just as human as anyone, it's about time this team got a wake up call. Nothing stupid here, but it take's something to get something and the right move could benefit this club. With managment as calculated and stoic as ours it wouldn't take a blockbuster trade to open some eyes. The departures of some of the players on the D opens things up for other guys to bring their game up, giving them a chance to set their place in the lineup, can you say incentive.

A calculated risk is still a risk, but it's seems like forever since this team has taken one.

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Pass on this one. Not worth the scratch. If we all felt like the team would go from. 500 to. 600, im sure we'd be saying different things.

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Bouwmeester is not an elite defenseman. He can eat minutes and he's durable. Those are his main strengths. He's below-average offensively and average defensively. The team can absolutely afford to be without him, especially given that the current market will vastly inflate his price.

You are not going to find a replacement for Lidstrom anywhere you look, you need to find the right bits and pieces here and there, and try to put something together that will be better than the individuals. I think the qualities you listed is a perfect fit paired with Kronwall for example. I think a deal could be made that will benefit both teams.

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A trade for Bouwmeester will necessitate a defenseman (one who is not Kindl) going the other way along with a good forward. Swapping one defenseman for a marginally better one and losing scoring in the process (plus probably a draft pick also) will not improve the team.

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A trade for Bouwmeester will necessitate a defenseman (one who is not Kindl) going the other way along with a good forward. Swapping one defenseman for a marginally better one and losing scoring in the process (plus probably a draft pick also) will not improve the team.

There are all sorts of possibilities. Holland could involve a third team if Calgary indeed insists to get a defensman in return. I stand by my belief that a deal can be made for Bouwmeester and still improve this team.

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Crymson's stating the most likely scenario, Barnes is saying it might not have to come down to that. I like both arguments on this one.

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I don't think this whole debate is as irrelivant or stupid as some have said. Of all the hair brained, half cocked ideas thrown around here I finally think this one may make sense. If your not going to land a dominant #1, what's wrong with stacking your team with #2 through 6's ? His salary is high, not nearly as much after the last month has played out. Were not eating all the cap room, especially depending on what you may subtract. For what he has produced compaired to what his potential on our team could be, I'll be optimistic and predict slightly higher than his average #'s with relative dependablity thrown in. Two years is perfect to see what you've got, his age and the point he is in his career are plusses. The bigger issue than his price now is what it could go to. Let's say between camp and Oct./Nov. one of our top 6 D goes down for part/most/all of the season (or any other team's). His trade value gets REALLY stupid then. Right now brings the most sane market value, if you want to call it that. I'd be more comfortable with better depth on defence than all of our depth up front.

Which brings me to the price we'd have to pay. I won't advocate selling the farm, especially for Bouwmeester, but I honestly belive it's about time for this organization to roll the dice a bit. To pull from another thread, managment has gotten too comfortable. When was the last time we've done something thats raised any eyebrows? It seems like we are the place where you come, play, grow old and retire. Players are just as human as anyone, it's about time this team got a wake up call. Nothing stupid here, but it take's something to get something and the right move could benefit this club. With managment as calculated and stoic as ours it wouldn't take a blockbuster trade to open some eyes. The departures of some of the players on the D opens things up for other guys to bring their game up, giving them a chance to set their place in the lineup, can you say incentive.

A calculated risk is still a risk, but it's seems like forever since this team has taken one.

And in hindsight, Robert Lang was not worth Tomas Fleischmann and whatever else was in our last risk/reward trade.

This year is a youth tryout and to see how far our depth can go.

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i think the flames could handle not getting a dman back if they got a top end forward. unfortunately the wings cant afford to send one of those anyways. and i dont think calgary would really be interested in forward prospects, even a guy thats close like nyquist. they have continually shown they aren't willing to rebuild, so i think they want some sort of roster ready guy back. they have always been weak up the middle so i would have to think they would want something like filppula straight up. personally i dont think anyone is interested in that from our end.

though i wonder if they would be interested in ericsson + picks/prospects? they at least would get them an nhl guy back. if they plan on wideman/giordano as their top pair, ericsson could slot in on the 2nd or 3rd pair. in that situation, i think calgary could stomach supplementing with prospects and picks. and for us, since they are getting a roster player, the additional assets might not have to be so top end.

what do you guys think about ericsson going? i know some already think ericsson is better than bouwmeester, but maybe you rational guys can keep the discussion going!

(personally, i think it would be about the best deal to make both teams happy, but not sure if i would like it. we would have a tough time on the pk without stuart and ericsson.)

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The more I think about it the more I don't want JBO here. The 6.68 mil a year salary is just not worth it. I know he only has 2 years left on his deal but I'd sooner sign a guy like Kubina or Roszival to a 1 year deal and keep the Cap space for next summer so we can take a run at Getzlaf, Perry or Edler.

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And in hindsight, Robert Lang was not worth Tomas Fleischmann and whatever else was in our last risk/reward trade.

This year is a youth tryout and to see how far our depth can go.

Agree about Lang. But there isn't any difference between doing nothing and being wrong and doing something and being wrong. Sometime Hollands moves don't work out, but rarely does he really blow it out his ass.

Agree 100% this year is about youth. I firmly belive the "over ripe" way bringing guys up needs to be scaled back.

"I'd be more comfortable with better depth on defence than all of our depth up front."

I just feel better depth on the blue line gives us a better shot of staying in the playoffs. Not for the sake of the streak but for the opportunity to make sure the youth gets playoff experince as well.

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