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Richdg

Thinking on 2013/14 roster.

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Is there a section for people who haven't drank the Kool-Aid? I'd love to see it. People are delusional around here. Detroit can't just rebuild on the fly.

Thanks for all you've added to this discussion. I disagree with you, so I guess I'm cool-aid drinking loon.

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Thanks for all you've added to this discussion. I disagree with you, so I guess I'm cool-aid drinking loon.

You didn't mention what you disagreed with.

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You didn't mention what you disagreed with.

Why bother?

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The better Nyquist plays, and the longer Sammy is injured, the higher chance I think Holland uses an amnesty buyout. Could use one on Cola, but I think Lashoff can still play in GR next season? (Someone correct me if I'm wrong here) So we'd be using a buyout just so Lashoff could sit on the bench instead of Cola.

If Sammy's bought out, I'd like to see...

Nyquist-Zetterberg-Brunner
Filppula-Datsyuk-Franzen
Tatar-Helm-Bertuzzi
Abdelkader-Andersson-Tootoo
Emmerton, Eaves

Kronwall-Ericsson
Quincey-Smith
Kindl-DeKeyser
Cola or Lashoff

Howard
Gustavsson

It's not overly likely that Goose is on the top line, but I think he'd work well there. I'd actually prefer that over having both him and Tatar on either side of Helm, and Bert in the top six.

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I'm not sure what bit will look like. I do believe Holland will try to make a trade but will mostly likely fail just like this year. But a few free agents is my question. Just like he wants suter and parise I believe he will target someone. Now if they sign or not who knows?

I do believe he will also try his hardest to resign fil and Howard as top priority. So the question is where does the money come from? I believe he will shock us all and actually use his two buyouts and WONT resign cleary.

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The better Nyquist plays, and the longer Sammy is injured, the higher chance I think Holland uses an amnesty buyout. Could use one on Cola, but I think Lashoff can still play in GR next season? (Someone correct me if I'm wrong here) So we'd be using a buyout just so Lashoff could sit on the bench instead of Cola.

If Sammy's bought out, I'd like to see...

Nyquist-Zetterberg-Brunner

Filppula-Datsyuk-Franzen

Tatar-Helm-Bertuzzi

Abdelkader-Andersson-Tootoo

Emmerton, Eaves

Kronwall-Ericsson

Quincey-Smith

Kindl-DeKeyser

Cola or Lashoff

Howard

Gustavsson

It's not overly likely that Goose is on the top line, but I think he'd work well there. I'd actually prefer that over having both him and Tatar on either side of Helm, and Bert in the top six.

Agreed, I've been saying for weeks now that Sammy & Cola will be bought out. And unless Kenny pulls off a trade for a #1 or 2 d-man that sends one back in the deal (most likely Smith I would think), White will be a goner too as a UFA.

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Holland talks about "rebuild". That's definitely not a bad idea. After this season, everyone will recognize that.

Top Winger 23-28 years, Datsjuk, Jurco

Tatar, Zetterberg, Brunner

Cleary, Helm, Bertuzzi

Miller, Emmerton, Eaves

Lashoff, Kronwall

Kindl, Top Defender 23-28years

Smith, DeKeyser

Howard

Mrazek

plus: White, Ouellet, Sheahan, Ferraro, Tootoo

Need Andersson and Tatar or Nyquist to add a winger to go with Pav. Would prefer to keep Tatar. Would be the perfect addition for Z and Brunner. I really like Jurco. Very skillfull player and his size is not bad. Maybe he can fit in. Otherwise let's check the other younger guys or Bertuzzi with Pav. If the younger guys step up, there's no need for Cleary and Eaves, too. But Miller and Bertuzzi should stay.

Lashoff in the top pairing? No Ericsson or Quincey? Are you just going to release these two?

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Use those amnesty buyouts on Sammy and Cola. You HAVE too. It's not like UFAs are lining up to play in the D because Kenny's so nice to his players. The cap's going down, the league is viciously tight. Can't afford to be sentimental or as "classy" as you once were. Sammy and Cola were the two most recent UFA signings, so they should go.

Let Filpulla walk and add some size on the wing:

Brunner - Datsyuk - Horton/Clarkson

Goose - Z - Franzen

Tatar - Helm - Bert

Abby - Andersson - Tootoo

Eaves/Emmerton

Kronwall - Ericsson

Kindl - Quincey

DeKeyser - Smith

Lashoff

Howard

Gustavsson

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Buy-out Quiency. It makes no sense buying out someone who only makes 2 million a season. Buy out the guy getting paid almost 4 million a season.

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For the guy that said Filppula is good for 25 goals a year, no he isn't he has never scored 25 goals in a season, last year was his career high-23, the first and only time he has scored over 20 goals. Good 2 way player, yes. Good passer yes. but Filppula is not a goal scorer. Which after all is our problem.

When we get right down to it, the issues with this team are our top 6 forwards. we have plenty of bottom 6 guys: Abdelkader, Andersson, Sheahan, Tootoo, Emmerton, Eaves, and helm. All signed for next year. That is 7 guys that have good speed, good defensively, and some grit. it is the top 6 that is full of questions. datsyuk, Z and brunner are fine. But they need some size and toughness to go with them, and that is where our down fall is. Bert, sammy, and Franzen are just not cutting it. replacing them with tatar and nyquist is a disaster waiting to happen. I can't want to see the legion of threads next year when players start taking liberties with dat and Z because there is no one on their lines to protect them. I can hear the whining, crying, and b1tching now......

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For the guy that said Filppula is good for 25 goals a year, no he isn't he has never scored 25 goals in a season, last year was his career high-23, the first and only time he has scored over 20 goals. Good 2 way player, yes. Good passer yes. but Filppula is not a goal scorer. Which after all is our problem.

When we get right down to it, the issues with this team are our top 6 forwards. we have plenty of bottom 6 guys: Abdelkader, Andersson, Sheahan, Tootoo, Emmerton, Eaves, and helm. All signed for next year. That is 7 guys that have good speed, good defensively, and some grit. it is the top 6 that is full of questions. datsyuk, Z and brunner are fine. But they need some size and toughness to go with them, and that is where our down fall is. Bert, sammy, and Franzen are just not cutting it. replacing them with tatar and nyquist is a disaster waiting to happen. I can't want to see the legion of threads next year when players start taking liberties with dat and Z because there is no one on their lines to protect them. I can hear the whining, crying, and b1tching now......

I think that he was refering to Franzen

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Ther Wings roster will have to be Bolstered this off-season or I'd really have to call for Holland's Job and his Head. If he thinks this team can get away with minimal changes and be a Stanley Cup Championship Team. I'm not going to say who should stay and who should go but this team is going to need help for next season and I hope Kenny has the B@LL$ to make a bold move or two this July or even at the Draft. If this team is going to get back to it's winning ways it's going ot need to have all the right peices in place and as of right now it doesn't so something will have to be done.

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The hard part of course is finding the right pieces to trade. yes we all would love to take 2 or 3 minor leaguers and pick up an AS power forward. but that isn't the way things work. So where are we strong-long term and what or how many pieces can go.

Right now we have great depth on D and at G. Look at the D: Kronwall, Ericsson, Smith, Kindl, Dekeyser, lashoff, Quincey, Colaviaco, Nicastro, Sproul, Oullett, deHaas, merchecnko. That is 13. We can only carry 7 and yes we need 2-3 in the minors for depth.

The same thing at G. Howard, Gus, Marzek, the new kid from NMU, and peterson. That makes 5.

Now some have good/great trade value. Some do not. So what pieces do we keep and which ones do we put into a package?

Yes we all would like to move Quincey and free up his cap hit-3.75 million per year. But does Q alone get us a top notch forward? No. takes more than him. Do younger guys with Quincey become enough? maybe.

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Ok, let me focus on the who we need to replace side a bit. As I mentioned before we have 3 must improve spots and a 4th would like to improve spot. We have to replace/improve on Sammy, Bert, and Franzen-in that order. While Franzen has his worts, at least he still makes it to the ice most of the time. bert and Sammy haven't and are much older. The 4th spot that I would like to improve, is 1 good RH Dman. Finding one would also open up 1 of our other Dmen for trade.

So who is Samuelsson? He is a 37 year old 6-2/215 RH shooting RW that averages 18 goals for every 82 games over his career. He also has averaged a little over 1 hit per game for his career. he makes 3 million per year.

That is what we need to replace/improve on. Ideally we would be looking at guys that are under 30 years of age than can produce those results or better for roughly the same money.

Now what guys in the league can do that? What would it cost to get them? Here are some options:

UFA's:

Nathan Horton RW Boston. 6-2/230, 28 in May, he averages 28 goals for every 82 games played for his career. He averages just under 1 hit per game for his career. I would think that to sign him we are talking 5 years or more and 30+ million.

David Clarkson RW NJD. 6-1/200, just turned 29. He averages 19 goals per 82 games in his career, but has really improved the last 2 seasons. He is also a 2 hits per game guy over his career. I would expect him to get a contract of the same type of length and money as Horton. 5 years + 30 million +.

Others:

Chris Stewart RW STL. 6-2/230 and 25 years old. He averages 26 goals per 82 games for his career. He is also a hit per game + type of player.

Dustin Brown RW LAK. 6-0/212 and is 28. He averages 23 goals per 82 games. He is a 3 hits per game player.

Wayne Simmonds RW Philly and is 25 this summer. He averages 18 goals per 82 games for his career. he is a 1+ hits per game guy.

Bobby Ryan RW Ana and is 26. He averages 32 goals per 82 games for his career. he is a 1.5 hit per game player.

That about covers the list for RH shooting RWers, that score more than Sammy, hit more than Sammy, and are 28 or younger.

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Now let's do the same thing with Bertuzzi. Who is Bert? He is a 38 year old 6-3/230 LH shooting LW. Over his career he has averaged 23 goals per 82 games. This number has of course been dropping over the last 5 or 6 years, the time he has played for us. In his prime Bert averaged 31 goals per 82 games. he has also been an active checker. About 1.5 hits per game for his career.

So, once again, who are the under 30 LW's with the same abilities?

UFA's:

Viktor Stalberg CHI. 6-3/210 27 years old. He has averaged 18 goals per 82 games for his career, but is trending upward. Has a 1 hit per game average.

Others:

Evander Kane Win. 21 years old, 6-2/200. Averages 25 goals per 82 games. Good for 3 hits per game.

Milan Lucic Bos. 24 years old. 6-4/220. Averages 20 goals per 82 games. Good for 3 hits per game.

Nikolai Kulemin 26 6-1/225 Tor. Averages 18 goals per 82 games. Good for 2 hits per game.

Alex Ovechkin Wash. 27 6-3/230. Averages 50 goals per 82 games and is good for 2 hits per game.

Andrew Ladd Win. 27 6-3/205. Averages 21 goals per 82 games and is a 2 hit per game player.

James Neal Pit. 25 years old. 6-2/210. Averages 31 goals per 82 games and is good for 1.5 hits per game.

James van Riemsdyk Tor. 6-3/200. Averages 22 goals per 82 games. Is good for 1+ hit per game.

That pretty much finishes the list. Most of the others are over 30, don't score, or don't hit.

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Last guy to talk about today is Franzen. Who is the Mule? He is a 33 year old 6-3/225 LH shooting forward. Can play all 3 spots. he averages 26 goals every 82 games played for his career. He is a 1 hit per game guy. I am going to compare him to C's-position of need. Who are the under 30 C's in the league that put up equal or better numbers?

UFA's:

none. weak class.

Others:

David Backus STL. 28 years old 6-3/225. He averages 22 goals per 82 games and is a 3 hit per game guy.

Jordan Staal Car. 24 years old. 6-4/220. He averages 23 goals per 82 games and is a 3 hits per game guy.

Martin Hanzal Pho. 26 years old. 6-6/236. He averages 14 goals per 82 games, but that is starting to trend upwards. he is also a 2 hits per game guy.

Anze Kopitar LAK. 25 years old. 6-3/225. He averages 28 goals per 82 games. he is a 1.5 hits per game player.

Jamie Benn Dal. 23 years old. 6-2/205. He averages 25 goals per 82 games and is good for 1.5 hits per game.

Patrick Berglund Stl. 24 years old 6-3/220. He averages 22 goals per 82 games played. he is good for 1 hit per game.

That is once again getting close to the bottom of the pit. The others are over 30, don't score or don't hit.

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Now, after all of that, there were/are 20 players in the NHL that are equal to or better than the 3 we need to replace, and are under 30. There were/are a few more that I didn't include. Guy like Perry and getzlaf-they just resigned and can't be moved. Of course not all 20 of the guys I listed are available, and in most cases would be expensive to get. But we need to find the way.

Between Bert, Sammy, and Franzen, they average 6-2.75/223 in size, and for their careers they combine to produce 67 goals over every 82 games. They combine to average out to 4 hits per game as well.

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Oh Boy. Most of the players you have named as potential replacements for Bertuzzi, Franzen and Samuelsson won't be attainable without severe overpayment.

I don't think Holland will make any significant moves this summer, except maybe a UFA to possibly replace Filppula if he walks for more money. I also doubt he will use any amnesty buyouts. Someone pointed out the buyouts of McCarty, Hatcher and Whitney in comparison, but that situation was much different. The Red Wings HAD to shed some salary to get under the newly imposed salary cap, and cutting the contracts of an overpayed oft injured bottom 6 forward, an expensive dman who had missed lots of time, and a top 6 forward who didn't make much of an impact were necessary moves.

The only possible buyout I can see could maybe be Colaiacovo if they don't see him as being in the top 5 of their dmen. However, they could probably get a return for him in a trade if they put him on the market in the offseason.

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Jurco on the 1st line : not ready yet

Lashoff top 2 : never gonna happen

T-Z-B line : too small

No toughness at all... Let's not forget that the next saison we are in east conf. which means we are going to play Boston, Philly, Rags, Pens, Leafs... physical teams.

Im gonna take a wild guess and say that Jurco on the top line with Dats is so he can learn from him. The hands Jurco has he could be a lot like Dats.

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Jurco on the 1st line : not ready yet

Lashoff top 2 : never gonna happen

T-Z-B line : too small

No toughness at all... Let's not forget that the next saison we are in east conf. which means we are going to play Boston, Philly, Rags, Pens, Leafs... physical teams.

Enough guys who can play tough. When you're rebuilding, you can't have anything und you will may not reach the playoffs. We're definitely NOT rebuilding at the moment (no matter what Holland tells us) and we will not making the playoffs, too.

I simply don't like guys who are only usable for the dirty work. Skillful guys like Kronwall, Lash, Smith, Kindl, Bert or Cleary have a lot of size and they will play harder if it's demanded. Franzen is a heavy guy but he's not working with his size. I prefer powerforwards like Helm, Emmerton, Miller or Eaves. They also cost a lot less.

Tatar and Brunner may not bring size but they're both driving hard to the net. Specially Tatar proved that he's willing to play hard. Even Zetterberg can play a lot harder if necessary and he's size is at least not bad. Brunner also can play very very hard. Hard enough to destroy Colaiacovo :lol:. I really like the topline of the canucks. Burrows and the Sedins aren't big guys but they're working very hard and score a lot of big goals.

Lash never in the top2? Well, he was already there and played big minutes with the Kronwall. He did very well and I don't understand why he got replaced by Ericsson. He played 2,3 awesome passes but that's it. Can not be used at the blue line, Quincey can't as well. Though they earn more than 3 Mio. I'm pretty sure the youth can do better and we have a lot of young defenders in the organization who proved that they're ready to play big minutes in the NHL.

Im gonna take a wild guess and say that Jurco on the top line with Dats is so he can learn from him. The hands Jurco has he could be a lot like Dats.

Sure. And despite everything he's a very hard working guy. Plus he's a lot faster than for example Sheahan is. He's one of the biggest in the organization had some really good games with Grand Rapids during the last weeks. Should be tested during in 13/14 for sure.

Edited by poel

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Are teams able to "bury guys in the minors" under the new CBA, ala Redden and others, so that their salary does not count against the cap?

If so it would give the Wings an option to shed some of these guys they don't necessarily have roster room for. Seems like that might be preferable to buying out guys who only have one year on their contracts (e.g. Coloaiacovo, Gustavson, Eaves, Samuelsson, Bertuzzi.). Assuming guys are exposed to waivers, they could either be claimed or sent down to play out the remainder of their contracts.

If this is the alternative, the guys who might be subject to an amnesty buyout might actually perceive it as "classy" treatment by the organization.

Anyone informed on the rules here? I think it would have a major impact on how DET and many teams approach their player salaries for next season.

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Does anyone know if the cap is going to go Up, Down or Stay the Same for Next season? If it goes up that may help us keep a lot of our depth but be able to go after a solid UFA. There really is no-one that I'm drooling about getting as I don't believe we needs something HUGE we do need someone(s) Big that can help us but not somoene we will have to over-pay for to get. I really would prefer to keep our younger players and get them developed even more. I think that should be our biggest concern especially on D. So many of the kids are still learning and making those rookie mistakes but if we can take the time to keep them on the roster and help them get better that will help the entire team.

To be perfectly honest I would mind parting ways with Sammy, Eaves, and Bert but not sure about contracts and if that's even a possibility for this off-season. Personally I would almost rather see us trade away a few mediocore players to try and get a higher draft pick or more Early Round Picks so we can add to our depth but they will be players that we don't have to take forever to develop that can help us within 2-3 years max. Unless we really spend some money this summer to go after a big name or two the draft might be a good option.

I think if we want to have a real chance at a Cup again soon we really are going to have to go after a big-name or names this summer to really make a solid push otherwise it's going to be a waiting game to build towards it year by year with developing our younger players and finding the right veterans to help them along the way. I hate to say it but I think we are at that point where we as Wings fans are going to have to wait for a while before we see Lord Stanley back in Detroit. I hope I'm wrong and we can get another one soon but every team has to go through their building or rebuilding phase and we have seen a bunch of our former players that have won us our 4 Cups in 11 years retire. I'm still optimistic we'll make the playoffs this season but who knows. I just wanna see another Parade some time soon.

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I think you have to resign Filppula. He is arguably the best free agent available this year. I can see the lines looking something like this.

Nyquist-Datsyuk-Bertuzzi/Jagar/Morrow

Franzen-Zetterberg-Flip

Tatar-Helm-Andersson

Emerton-Abdelkadar-Tootoo/eaves/milller

Kronwall-Ericsson

Dekeyser-Kindl

Smith-Quincey

Colo

Lashoff

Howard

Gus

This a pretty solid lineup. However, I think Bert might be gone as well. So replace him through a trade for a young forward or a UFA.

Edited by cupforwings

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Are teams able to "bury guys in the minors" under the new CBA, ala Redden and others, so that their salary does not count against the cap?

If so it would give the Wings an option to shed some of these guys they don't necessarily have roster room for. Seems like that might be preferable to buying out guys who only have one year on their contracts (e.g. Coloaiacovo, Gustavson, Eaves, Samuelsson, Bertuzzi.). Assuming guys are exposed to waivers, they could either be claimed or sent down to play out the remainder of their contracts.

If this is the alternative, the guys who might be subject to an amnesty buyout might actually perceive it as "classy" treatment by the organization.

Anyone informed on the rules here? I think it would have a major impact on how DET and many teams approach their player salaries for next season.

You can get some slight cap relief burying players. Anything over $925,000 (I think...something in that range at least) still counts towards the cap.

However, Bert and Sammy are both on 35+ contracts, so we take their full hit regardless of where (or even if) they play. Amnesty buyout is the only way to get rid of it. (Barring a trade that is.)

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