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evilmrt

2013 Offseason Thread

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Its your ridiculous assertion that Franzen isn't worthy of being in the NHL that people are correcting you on. Its as crazy as claiming he's the best player in the NHL.

That goes back to someone saying that Dupuis - Crosby = average player. I simply said it that is the case, then Franzen - Dats/Z = AHL player because Dats and Z made Franzen what he became in 08 and 09. Without those two Playoff Franzen would have never existed. That is about as close to a guarantee as you can get...

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Why?

Hossa is a perennial 40 goal/80 point guy who is going to the Hockey Hall of Fame eventually. Franzen will not be remembered at all.

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No I suggested it would be stupid to trade our leading scorer for Shawn Horcroff, which you had stated you'd be happy to do. Please stop misquoting me in an attempt to justify yourself post hoc.

Also, again with the name calling. Isn't that supposed to be frowned upon around here (as well as in the better part of adult human society).

Right, that is what I said. You said it would be stupid to do so. I would trade him for Horcroff, I think he is a harder worker and earns his paycheck.

A slappy is someone who refuses to see the bad in something no matter how obvious it is, which is what most Franzen fans do. I will refrain from saying it anymore.

Yikes. There's an arbitrary declaration if I've ever heard one. Did Franzen do something to you?

Nah, he is just my whipping boy. I like Franzen in the bottom 6...although our current bottom 6 probably outworks him too...so I just wish him gone.

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Right, that is what I said. You said it would be stupid to do so. I would trade him for Horcroff, I think he is a harder worker and earns his paycheck.

A slappy is someone who refuses to see the bad in something no matter how obvious it is, which is what most Franzen fans do. I will refrain from saying it anymore.

Nah, he is just my whipping boy. I like Franzen in the bottom 6...although our current bottom 6 probably outworks him too...so I just wish him gone.

Franzen lost me this year. Bickell showed me what we could have. Instead, we have the My Little Pony. Doeant hit, doesnt fight, doesnt crash, doeant play defense. He'sgarbage now.

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Franzen lost me this year. Bickell showed me what we could have. Instead, we have the My Little Pony. Doeant hit, doesnt fight, doesnt crash, doeant play defense. He'sgarbage now.

That is just it. Sure 28 goals is good for $3.9M, but there are plenty of guys out there who make less, who earn it more. Franzen is just a mush melon who refuses to even follow up his rebounds, he shoots the puck and before it hits the net he his turning the other way. He doesn't fight in the corners, he get pushed around in front of the net, he is the poorest replacement for Holmstrom that ANY team could come up with. He led the team in the playoffs in +/-....in the minus column! He may not be garbage, but he is declining rapidly and has shown that when it counts, he doesn't elevate his game...

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Hossa is a perennial 40 goal/80 point guy who is going to the Hockey Hall of Fame eventually. Franzen will not be remembered at all.

Well I wouldn't say "perennial" considering he hasn't done it in five years, and has scored 40 only 3 times in his 15 year career. But I will agree that on average he scores more goals (slightly), but that still doesn't necessarily make him a better value. Franzen scores almost as much at this stage of his career, blocks more shots, hits more, takes more faceoffs and wins at a high percentage, shoots as often, and plays as many minutes. About the only thing Hossa does better (at this point in his career) is score slightly more and backcheck better. If you think that's worth the additional money then ok, but I don't think it's as clear cut as you think.

Edited by kipwinger

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That is just it. Sure 28 goals is good for $3.9M, but there are plenty of guys out there who make less, who earn it more. Franzen is just a mush melon who refuses to even follow up his rebounds, he shoots the puck and before it hits the net he his turning the other way. He doesn't fight in the corners, he get pushed around in front of the net, he is the poorest replacement for Holmstrom that ANY team could come up with. He led the team in the playoffs in +/-....in the minus column! He may not be garbage, but he is declining rapidly and has shown that when it counts, he doesn't elevate his game...

Agreed. 28 goals a year as the Wings top line winger isnt all that great. 50 goals is great.

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Agreed. 28 goals a year as the Wings top line winger isnt all that great. 50 goals is great.

Nobody said Franzen was great...ever. Franzen is, however, our leading goal scorer just about every year and therefore shouldn't be traded for anyone like Shawn Horcroff. Especially when you consider we've already got problems in the goal scoring department.

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Well I wouldn't say "perennial" considering he hasn't done it in five years, and has scored 40 only 3 times in his 15 year career. But I will agree that on average he scores more goals (slightly), but that still doesn't necessarily make him a better value. Franzen scores almost as much at this stage of his career, blocks more shots, hits more, takes more faceoffs and wins at a high percentage, shoots as often, and plays as many minutes. About the only thing Hossa does better (at this point in his career) is score slightly more and backcheck better. If you think that's worth the additional money then ok, but I don't think it's as clear cut as you think.

Its night and day, bro. Hossa is fast and dangerous. By himself, and especially with a good centerman. Franzen is worthless by himself, and is only good when plaing with 2 other linemates who are good.

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Agreed. 28 goals a year as the Wings top line winger isnt all that great. 50 goals is great.

One thing I do agree with the guys though, you aren't gonna get a 50 goal scorer for $3.9M (most years) Franzen just failed to turn into the player Holland chose to sign for life.. His production dropped when it counts and now he is a shadow of Playoff Franzen. If that. I would love nothing more than for Playoff Franzen to return, but it's been three season's since he has been here...fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me, fool me three times, its time for you to go!

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Nobody said Franzen was great...ever. Franzen is, however, our leading goal scorer just about every year and therefore shouldn't be traded for anyone like Shawn Horcroff. Especially when you consider we've already got problems in the goal scoring department.

He doesnt play tough. The other teams dont fear playing against him. He needs to add that, or we are stuck witj a dud.

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Nobody said Franzen was great...ever. Franzen is, however, our leading goal scorer just about every year and therefore shouldn't be traded for anyone like Shawn Horcroff. Especially when you consider we've already got problems in the goal scoring department.

But that doesn't change the fact that we need change on this team, and no, not change just for the sake of change, but we need to change the makeup of this team to compete in the East. For all of Franzen's size, he plays like 150lb. player. I will be surprised if Franzen scores even 25 goals next season playing in the East. There isn't too much available UFA this season, change must come via trade, and right now Franzen holds very high trade value. (if not for the length of his contract.) I think Horcoff would fit in on this team great. He may not replace Franzen's scoring, but he will out work him day in and day out...but I agree with you, Franzen is an overpayment, Horcoff is a bottom 6 guy.

Edited by LeftWinger

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Agreed. 28 goals a year as the Wings top line winger isnt all that great. 50 goals is great.

Hossa hasn't topped 29 since going to Chicago, and it's not like he's playing with garbage linemates. At least three guys he plays with are perennial all-stars, and their remaining top sixers (Bickell, Stalberg, Saad) are at least as good as Filppula, Bert, Cleary, Abby, if not better. So again, with all his natural ability and his superstar linemates why isn't he scoring at a much higher rate than Franzen? I'll tell you why, because Franzen isn't as bad as you make him out to be and Hossa isn't as good.

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That is just it. Sure 28 goals is good for $3.9M, but there are plenty of guys out there who make less, who earn it more. Franzen is just a mush melon who refuses to even follow up his rebounds, he shoots the puck and before it hits the net he his turning the other way. He doesn't fight in the corners, he get pushed around in front of the net, he is the poorest replacement for Holmstrom that ANY team could come up with. He led the team in the playoffs in +/-....in the minus column! He may not be garbage, but he is declining rapidly and has shown that when it counts, he doesn't elevate his game...

Please do list for us those who regularly score 25-30 goals and 50-60 points, are paid equal to or less than $4m, are not on ELCs or RFA contracts, and are not in line for a big payday when their current contract expires.

Edited by Crymson

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Hossa hasn't topped 29 since going to Chicago, and it's not like he's playing with garbage linemates. At least three guys he plays with are perennial all-stars, and their remaining top sixers (Bickell, Stalberg, Saad) are at least as good as Filppula, Bert, Cleary, Abby, if not better. So again, with all his natural ability and his superstar linemates why isn't he scoring at a much higher rate than Franzen? I'll tell you why, because Franzen isn't as bad as you make him out to be and Hossa isn't as good.

Not that I want to get back on the Hossa subject, but if had played full seasons since he has been there, the 29 goal campaign would have been his lowest total.

in 2010 he would have had 34 goals in 82 games, 2011 it would have been 31, 2012 was his 29 goals and if 2013 would have been a full season he would have been on pace for 34 again. Franzen would have been 30, 30, 30 and 28. Similar numbers, so your point in value is taken and correct. It just seems that Franzen is on the decline while Hossa, for lack of anything else, remains just as good as he has ever been.

Either way, I certainly hope for change this summer, we need hard working, hitting, not afraid to go into the corner type guys now. The soft skilled players on this team have their days numbered...

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Not that I want to get back on the Hossa subject, but if had played full seasons since he has been there, the 29 goal campaign would have been his lowest total.

in 2010 he would have had 34 goals in 82 games, 2011 it would have been 31, 2012 was his 29 goals and if 2013 would have been a full season he would have been on pace for 34 again. Franzen would have been 30, 30, 30 and 28. Similar numbers, so your point in value is taken and correct. It just seems that Franzen is on the decline while Hossa, for lack of anything else, remains just as good as he has ever been.

Either way, I certainly hope for change this summer, we need hard working, hitting, not afraid to go into the corner type guys now. The soft skilled players on this team have their days numbered...

Agreed. Franzen is now Samuelsson part 2.

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Please do list for us those who regularly score 25-30 goals and 50-60 points, are paid equal to or less than $4m, are not on ELCs or RFA contracts, and are not in line for a big payday when their current contract expires.

That would be impossible because not all GM's out there deemed it necessary to sign an average NHL player to a lifetime contract. If he had gotten a 5 year deal, we'd be paying him $6M or more a season, is he worth that? The only reason his contract is valuable for his production is because of its length, 8 years from now, do you think he will still be scoring 30 goals? No. Then how valuable will that contract look? Most players you want me to not list are on 4-5 year deals and since they are outplaying Franzen, will get a raise of course.

Franzen at $3.9M a season on a 5 year contract would have been awesome for his production (he would be 4 years into it already.) But to be stuck with this long ass that he may not even finish, is a waste.

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Give me Nathan Horton and my concerns about Franzen diminish.

Franzen - Datsyuk - Horton

Filpulla - Zetterberg - Tatar

Nyquist - Andersson - Brunner

Eaves - Helm - Abdelkader

Emmerton, TooToo

I wanted to include the lineup because adding Horton provides us with something that Franzen is expected too, but doesn't - A player who plays his ass off, digs out loose pucks and isn't afraid to crash the net. With Datsyuks ability to hang on the puck and create, and Hortons ability to retrieve the puck and cause havoc in front, you allow Johan to play his game to find space and SHOOT the puck.

The second line is full of speed and puck possession, hopefully Tatar can score.

The Third line speaks for itself and will continue to grow.

The Fourth line is simply the best in hockey, assuming Helm returns.

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Give me Nathan Horton and my concerns about Franzen diminish.

Franzen - Datsyuk - Horton

Filpulla - Zetterberg - Tatar

Nyquist - Andersson - Brunner

Eaves - Helm - Abdelkader

Emmerton, TooToo

I wanted to include the lineup because adding Horton provides us with something that Franzen is expected too, but doesn't - A player who plays his ass off, digs out loose pucks and isn't afraid to crash the net. With Datsyuks ability to hang on the puck and create, and Hortons ability to retrieve the puck and cause havoc in front, you allow Johan to play his game to find space and SHOOT the puck.

The second line is full of speed and puck possession, hopefully Tatar can score.

The Third line speaks for itself and will continue to grow.

The Fourth line is simply the best in hockey, assuming Helm returns.

I would be down with that, except re-signing Filppula. I like this:

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Horton

Franzen - Helm - Tatar

Nyquist - Andersson - Brunner

Abdelkader - Emmerton - Tootoo

Eaves

You could even put Andersson, Brunner and Franzen on the 2nd line and have Nyquist with Helm and Tatar. Of course we will see TONS of lineup changes throughout the season, that is for sure!

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That would be impossible because not all GM's out there deemed it necessary to sign an average NHL player to a lifetime contract. If he had gotten a 5 year deal, we'd be paying him $6M or more a season, is he worth that? The only reason his contract is valuable for his production is because of its length, 8 years from now, do you think he will still be scoring 30 goals? No. Then how valuable will that contract look? Most players you want me to not list are on 4-5 year deals and since they are outplaying Franzen, will get a raise of course.

Franzen at $3.9M a season on a 5 year contract would have been awesome for his production (he would be 4 years into it already.) But to be stuck with this long ass that he may not even finish, is a waste.

In other words, you can't do it, and your claim is thus nothing more than hot air.

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In other words, you can't do it, and your claim is thus nothing more than hot air.

Ladd @ 4.4 million per

Stepan @ .875 million per

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I don't think Tootoo is eligible for a compliance buyout, I read you have to be making more than 3 million a season to have one used on you.

The Wings can only use them on Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Howard, Franzen, Kronwall, Quincey, Ericsson, and Samuelsson.

They could use a regular buyout on him, but he would cost us around 600k on the salary cap for 2 years, and around 700k for the next 2.

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Ladd @ 4.4 million per

Stepan @ .875 million per

Ladd is also one of the best valued players out there, but he's only put up Franzen #'s twice in his career and he's already making more than him.

Stepan is on an entry level deal, hasn't matched Franzen #'s ever, and on top of that will likely get paid a bunch more this offseason. I don't think he'll end up with a contract as team friendly as Ladd or Franzen.

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Ladd @ 4.4 million per

Stepan @ .875 million per

I don't think you read what I wrote.

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