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evilmrt

2013 Offseason Thread

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But that doesn't change the fact that we need change on this team, and no, not change just for the sake of change, but we need to change the makeup of this team to compete in the East. For all of Franzen's size, he plays like 150lb. player. I will be surprised if Franzen scores even 25 goals next season playing in the East. There isn't too much available UFA this season, change must come via trade, and right now Franzen holds very high trade value. (if not for the length of his contract.) I think Horcoff would fit in on this team great. He may not replace Franzen's scoring, but he will out work him day in and day out...but I agree with you, Franzen is an overpayment, Horcoff is a bottom 6 guy.

Horcoff coming to the Wings would make me lose all faith in Holland and I would not watch the Wings until that useless sack of s*** was gone. Miller is the Horcoff type of player, but I'd rather keep Miller if that were the case. I think it's actually time for Miller to move on and free up space for Tatar (full time) and Callahan or Sheahan to play some games as call ups this year. We have an abundance of talent in GR these days and don't require the bridge contracts anymore, especially with the cap projections handcuffing GM's at least for the next 5-6 years realistically.

Ladd is also one of the best valued players out there, but he's only put up Franzen #'s twice in his career and he's already making more than him.

Stepan is on an entry level deal, hasn't matched Franzen #'s ever, and on top of that will likely get paid a bunch more this offseason. I don't think he'll end up with a contract as team friendly as Ladd or Franzen.

I'd take Ladd any day over Franzen. There's a reason teams won Cups with Ladd on the 3rd line twice. Carolina and Chicago. Ladd is one of the most competitive hockey players I've ever seen and that dates back to his Jr career on the Calgary Hitmen, then the WJHC. There's a reason he's got a C on his jersey. He leads by example as well as any captain in the NHL. He deserves every penny he makes cause he goes out there, competes and never takes a shift off. Franzen has all the tools and doesn't use them.

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I'd take Ladd any day over Franzen. There's a reason teams won Cups with Ladd on the 3rd line twice. Carolina and Chicago. Ladd is one of the most competitive hockey players I've ever seen and that dates back to his Jr career on the Calgary Hitmen, then the WJHC. There's a reason he's got a C on his jersey. He leads by example as well as any captain in the NHL. He deserves every penny he makes cause he goes out there, competes and never takes a shift off. Franzen has all the tools and doesn't use them.

At his current cap hit I would too, which is why I said he's one of the best valued players in the league. I think he's in line for a big raise when his current contract is up though.

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At his current cap hit I would too, which is why I said he's one of the best valued players in the league. I think he's in line for a big raise when his current contract is up though.

That is the problem in todays NHL...the lockouts were supposed to keep salaries down. I love Ladd, loved him in Chicago, he ALWAYS played the Wings hard and always seemed to get points against them, and at $4.4M he is a great player, but unless he decides to stay in Winnipeg for less, he is going to get a big payday, probably get offers from dumbass GM's that will overpay him...ie Wisniewski....

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I tell you what, I am looking over the list of UFA's and I really don't see a #1 scorer on it...at least not one that I am interested in seeing here or one that won't cost $7M+. A lot of you guys talk about Ryder, Horton, Clarkston, but their numbers aren't really sniper-esque and for the price they command, they may cost too much against our cap... I still like Dupuis, but agree he has had many average season's compared to his couple of good ones... I think our best bet is going to have to be a trade or sign someone who may get bought out...I am really looking for that one guy that will get on the wing of the #1 line and solve our lack of scoring issues...at least make our scoring more consistent...

...can we just fast forward through the Cup finals and get to the offseason already?

Edited by LeftWinger

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Well I wouldn't say "perennial" considering he hasn't done it in five years, and has scored 40 only 3 times in his 15 year career. But I will agree that on average he scores more goals (slightly), but that still doesn't necessarily make him a better value. Franzen scores almost as much at this stage of his career, blocks more shots, hits more, takes more faceoffs and wins at a high percentage, shoots as often, and plays as many minutes. About the only thing Hossa does better (at this point in his career) is score slightly more and backcheck better. If you think that's worth the additional money then ok, but I don't think it's as clear cut as you think.

I think you are selling Hossa way short with that analysis. If Marian Hossa isn't scoring goals, do you notice him on the ice? I would say absolutely yes. If Johan Franzen isn't scoring goals, he's useless. The faceoff part is largely irrelevant. Hossa has always been a winger, while the Red Wings attempted Franzen at center this past season and it failed because Franzen can't carry a line offensively nor does he skate hard enough to play the position. Hossa is far superior defensively and uses his speed/size to his advantage. Franzen did go to the net more with Holmstrom gone, but he was still invisible in the playoffs circling around the perimeter with Filppula. The one decided area that was in Franzen's favor for awhile was playoff performance and that's practically gone since Franzen hasn't produced in three years now there.

No one has ever questioned Marian Hossa's work ethic and effort. That alone is worth the additional money, especially factoring in all the other areas which make Hossa more valuable. Franzen is still a decent value, but Hossa is a better one comparing the two.

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I don't think you read what I wrote.

I did. But you angled your description to fit only Franzen. Thats not realistic. I want our GM looking for GOOD value. Not FMV. Having the guy who should be a 6m cap hit but only takes 4m is a good value. At this point, Franzen isnt providing us what we need in the 3 spot. That's our most glaring weakness.

Because Drew Miller hits and scores at the highest rate per ice time per dollar paid on our team doesnt mean we should just say "problem solved", right?

Franzen gets the juicy linemates. He gets the juicy ice time. He gets the pp time. And yet you keep defending his stats that we arent really worried about. Its TOUGHNESS that the Red Wings need. Not 3 more goal and 2 more assists per season. Its the guy that sends Shaw home with a broken face in game 4 and starts his golf season early before he has a chance to cheap shot and injure our 2nd line center in game 7. The Wings need Franzen to play like Bickell. Not like 45 year old Jari Kurri.

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Agreed. 28 goals a year as the Wings top line winger isnt all that great. 50 goals is great.

So I guess we haven't had a great player in quite a while. I guess there's only about 1-3 "great" players in the league. By those standards, I'm ok with sub-great.

I agree that franzen hasn't lived up to his former playoff years, but the last couple years were kind of weird for the wings. Last year nobody played very well and we were out in 5 games. This year we got perhaps the most balanced scoring we've ever had. Nobody had great point production, but everyone chipped in enough to get the job done (minus a couple games at the end)

I think franzen plays well with the right guys around him. Wasn't he at his best with Datsyuk and Zetterberg on his line? We didnt have the top 6 depth the last couple years to put that line together. Hopefully nyquist and Brunner (or someone else) can prove themselves as good top 6 players this year and Babcock will be able to put franzen with the right guys to get him going

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I did. But you angled your description to fit only Franzen. Thats not realistic. I want our GM looking for GOOD value. Not FMV. Having the guy who should be a 6m cap hit but only takes 4m is a good value. At this point, Franzen isnt providing us what we need in the 3 spot. That's our most glaring weakness.

Unless you get a guy coming off an ELC, or one of those really good "bridge contracts", this doesn't exist in the NHL anymore. Nearly all the guys who play around a similar point-per game production are making like 5+ million.

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Unless you get a guy coming off an ELC, or one of those really good "bridge contracts", this doesn't exist in the NHL anymore. Nearly all the guys who play around a similar point-per game production are making like 5+ million.

Yes, on shorter term contracts though...if Franzen were on a 5 year deal, he'd be topping $8M a season for his (lack of) production. The only reason he is at $3.9M is because of the 11 years. If all those other guys were also on 11 year contract, they'd be in the $3M's as well. There is nothing valuable about Franzen's contract, because we are stuck with him for the next 7 years....

Lets look at James Neal, currently making $5M per season. Similar numbers, he's up and down has actually scored 40 before, but he averages in the mid 20's. He signed a 6yr $30M contract. Franzen singed an 11 year $43M contract...who has the better value, Franzen cost us $13M more...

Lets see what Franzen would be making if he had signed a 6yr deal....oh geez, $7.1M per season. Now what about Neal's $30M on an 11 year contract? $2.7M per. Again, there is no value to Franzen contract. Period. I'd rather have Neal at $30M tens times over Franzen at $43M...

So who is more valuable? Franzen's 28 goals at $7.1M on a 6 year deal or Neal's $5M on a 6 year deal? Franzen's $3.9M on an 11 year deal or Neal's $2.7M on an 11 year deal? Franzen's $43M or Neal's $30M? All three ways, Franzen is a waste of money...

Edited by LeftWinger

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Lets look at Alex Burrows who is way better and way more consistent than Franzen. He just signed a 4yr $18M contract. If Franzen signed a 4yr deal, his cap hit would be $10.75M, if Burrows had an 11yr deal his would be $1.63M...Franzen at $43M is ludicrous compared to Burrows at $18M. I would much rather have the $4.5M cap hit and be done with the contract after 4 years. Franzen will still be making $3.9M cap hit when he only scoring 5 goals a season and riding the press box in the playoffs...

The bottom line is, it doesn't matter the cap hit when it comes to value for production. At $43M he needs to be scoring 40 goals a season and not mailing it in during the playoffs...and to put an end to the Hossa debate, Hossa at $63M who has scored 29 or higher 10 times, 40 or higher 3 times and averages .91 PPG is more valuable than Franzen who's PPG is .59...

Edited by LeftWinger

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First off, the cap hit recapture thing is complete garbage. It's the league's issue that they allowed those contracts, and now GM's following the rules are being penalized for finding loopholes int he league's shoddy system.

Secondly, you're bending numbers so out of proportion that I don't even know how to respond. Just because you average out numbers, and crunch them into different time periods doesn't mean you have the cap hits and salary right. Franzen would never make 7.1 million per year... ever. You can't just bend numbers from different players, because that's assuming every single player with similar production, and every GM in the league are the exact same. They're not. Each team is different too, by the way.

Franzen was signed to his current deal, because at the time, Holland was taking advantage of a loophole in the CBA. The bottom line is, at this very moment, Franzen's production is solid for the amount of cap hit and salary he is taking up. The cap recapture rule is horse s***. Had the league just dealt with this properly, Franzen's hit would be coming off the books, and it'd be a non-issue. It's not Franzen's fault, it's not Holland's fault... it's the NHL's mismanagement and backpedaling.

Edited by Jesusberg
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Yes, on shorter term contracts though...if Franzen were on a 5 year deal, he'd be topping $8M a season for his (lack of) production. The only reason he is at $3.9M is because of the 11 years. If all those other guys were also on 11 year contract, they'd be in the $3M's as well. There is nothing valuable about Franzen's contract, because we are stuck with him for the next 7 years....

Lets look at James Neal, currently making $5M per season. Similar numbers, he's up and down has actually scored 40 before, but he averages in the mid 20's. He signed a 6yr $30M contract. Franzen singed an 11 year $43M contract...who has the better value, Franzen cost us $13M more...

Lets see what Franzen would be making if he had signed a 6yr deal....oh geez, $7.1M per season. Now what about Neal's $30M on an 11 year contract? $2.7M per. Again, there is no value to Franzen contract. Period. I'd rather have Neal at $30M tens times over Franzen at $43M...

So who is more valuable? Franzen's 28 goals at $7.1M on a 6 year deal or Neal's $5M on a 6 year deal? Franzen's $3.9M on an 11 year deal or Neal's $2.7M on an 11 year deal? Franzen's $43M or Neal's $30M? All three ways, Franzen is a waste of money...

What you said made absolutely no sense. If Neal signed an 11 year contract, it would be for a hell of a lot more than 30 mill. If franzen signed a 5 year contract, it would be for a hell of a lot less than 43 mill.

Once Nepal's 5 years are up, he'll sign another contract. You realize that right? Over the course of 11 years, he will make a lot more than franzen

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So I guess we haven't had a great player in quite a while. I guess there's only about 1-3 "great" players in the league. By those standards, I'm ok with sub-great.

I agree that franzen hasn't lived up to his former playoff years, but the last couple years were kind of weird for the wings. Last year nobody played very well and we were out in 5 games. This year we got perhaps the most balanced scoring we've ever had. Nobody had great point production, but everyone chipped in enough to get the job done (minus a couple games at the end)

I think franzen plays well with the right guys around him. Wasn't he at his best with Datsyuk and Zetterberg on his line? We didnt have the top 6 depth the last couple years to put that line together. Hopefully nyquist and Brunner (or someone else) can prove themselves as good top 6 players this year and Babcock will be able to put franzen with the right guys to get him going

Youre missing the point too. If goals are the only thing you do for the team, then 28 goals a year with 20 mins of ice time with world class centers is not all that great. If you hit, fight, scrap, and are a +25, then 28 goals is fantastic. Franzen needs to play like Shanahan. Not like Franzen.

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Yes, on shorter term contracts though...if Franzen were on a 5 year deal, he'd be topping $8M a season for his (lack of) production. The only reason he is at $3.9M is because of the 11 years. If all those other guys were also on 11 year contract, they'd be in the $3M's as well. There is nothing valuable about Franzen's contract, because we are stuck with him for the next 7 years....

Lets look at James Neal, currently making $5M per season. Similar numbers, he's up and down has actually scored 40 before, but he averages in the mid 20's. He signed a 6yr $30M contract. Franzen singed an 11 year $43M contract...who has the better value, Franzen cost us $13M more...

Lets see what Franzen would be making if he had signed a 6yr deal....oh geez, $7.1M per season. Now what about Neal's $30M on an 11 year contract? $2.7M per. Again, there is no value to Franzen contract. Period. I'd rather have Neal at $30M tens times over Franzen at $43M...

So who is more valuable? Franzen's 28 goals at $7.1M on a 6 year deal or Neal's $5M on a 6 year deal? Franzen's $3.9M on an 11 year deal or Neal's $2.7M on an 11 year deal? Franzen's $43M or Neal's $30M? All three ways, Franzen is a waste of money...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Franzen's cap hit for the amount of goals he scores..fans will always want more..the issue for the Mule is that after he went nuts in the playoffs 2 years in a row our expectations of him went through the roof. He's a 25-30 goal scorer and gets paid as such..he's never been a 40 goal scorer and never will be. The formula you used comparing him to other guys is so strange....although contracts are paid out over a certain amount years the true essence of a good contract is to get the most out of a guy on a per year basis which is why all these long contracts that were created with the loophole take huge dives in the last few years. Sign a guy for 10, hope he retires after 6 and if he doesn't hope he isn't in a wheel chair so you can get some value out of him.

Youre missing the point too. If goals are the only thing you do for the team, then 28 goals a year with 20 mins of ice time with world class centers is not all that great. If you hit, fight, scrap, and are a +25, then 28 goals is fantastic. Franzen needs to play like Shanahan. Not like Franzen.

Why would he ever play like Shanny? He was never compared to Shanny, he has never fought, never was a big hitter..I agree he should use his size more but you're making it sound like the guy should start doing things he was never supposed to or asked to do..makes 0 sense. I want a Shanny type player too but it's not going to be Franzen and good luck finding one.

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Lets look at Alex Burrows who is way better and way more consistent than Franzen. He just signed a 4yr $18M contract. If Franzen signed a 4yr deal, his cap hit would be $10.75M, if Burrows had an 11yr deal his would be $1.63M...Franzen at $43M is ludicrous compared to Burrows at $18M. I would much rather have the $4.5M cap hit and be done with the contract after 4 years. Franzen will still be making $3.9M cap hit when he only scoring 5 goals a season and riding the press box in the playoffs...

The bottom line is, it doesn't matter the cap hit when it comes to value for production. At $43M he needs to be scoring 40 goals a season and not mailing it in during the playoffs...and to put an end to the Hossa debate, Hossa at $63M who has scored 29 or higher 10 times, 40 or higher 3 times and averages .91 PPG is more valuable than Franzen who's PPG is .59...

I don't even know what to say about that.....

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My version of 2013 Red Wings:

Tatar - Dats - Clarkson/Horton

Clowe/Bickell - Z - Brunner

Abdelkader - Andersson - Nyquist

Miller - Helm - Tootoo

Kronwall - DeKe

Smith - E

Kindl - McQuaid

Colo

Trades: Franzen, Quincey and Eaves

Buyout: Sammy and Bert

Good luck in FA: Flip and Cleary

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First off, the cap hit recapture thing is complete garbage. It's the league's issue that they allowed those contracts, and now GM's following the rules are being penalized for finding loopholes int he league's shoddy system.

Secondly, you're bending numbers so out of proportion that I don't even know how to respond. Just because you average out numbers, and crunch them into different time periods doesn't mean you have the cap hits and salary right. Franzen would never make 7.1 million per year... ever. You can't just bend numbers from different players, because that's assuming every single player with similar production, and every GM in the league are the exact same. They're not. Each team is different too, by the way.

Franzen was signed to his current deal, because at the time, Holland was taking advantage of a loophole in the CBA. The bottom line is, at this very moment, Franzen's production is solid for the amount of cap hit and salary he is taking up. The cap recapture rule is horse s***. Had the league just dealt with this properly, Franzen's hit would be coming off the books, and it'd be a non-issue. It's not Franzen's fault, it's not Holland's fault... it's the NHL's mismanagement and backpedaling.

This. If one wants to see what Franzens cap hit would be on a shorter term, knock off the 1 mil/year seasons at the end (years and salary) then average what's left. Would be 4.61 mil/year cap hit, not 7.1. That's just insane numbers to come up with.

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clarkson, horton or stand still for a year. the next free agent class will be much better.

I'm not saying I want those guys - but thats what we said last year and then slowly but surely teams re-signed all their good ufa talent over the year and then its slim pickings. I'm waiting for our youth to break out - not holding my breath for ufas.

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There is absolutely nothing wrong with Franzen's cap hit for the amount of goals he scores..fans will always want more..the issue for the Mule is that after he went nuts in the playoffs 2 years in a row our expectations of him went through the roof. He's a 25-30 goal scorer and gets paid as such..he's never been a 40 goal scorer and never will be. The formula you used comparing him to other guys is so strange....although contracts are paid out over a certain amount years the true essence of a good contract is to get the most out of a guy on a per year basis which is why all these long contracts that were created with the loophole take huge dives in the last few years. Sign a guy for 10, hope he retires after 6 and if he doesn't hope he isn't in a wheel chair so you can get some value out of him.

Why would he ever play like Shanny? He was never compared to Shanny, he has never fought, never was a big hitter..I agree he should use his size more but you're making it sound like the guy should start doing things he was never supposed to or asked to do..makes 0 sense. I want a Shanny type player too but it's not going to be Franzen and good luck finding one.

If Shanny were in his prime now, his cap hit would be almost double Franzen's

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Reality: no buy outs. No trades. Miller and white let go. All RFAs, brunner, and cleary re-signed. No additions unless Filppula walks.

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clarkson, horton or stand still for a year. the next free agent class will be much better.

sounds like a broken record every off season :P

Edited by amato

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I'm not saying I want those guys - but thats what we said last year and then slowly but surely teams re-signed all their good ufa talent over the year and then its slim pickings. I'm waiting for our youth to break out - not holding my breath for ufas.

i hear ya. andersson, nyquist, tatar and dekeyser. thats where its at.

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